Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners What would your advice be....upgrade or not?

Sorry about bringing this up again...but here it goes.

First off I would like to say my wife is the best and I may be slighty crazy!! She puts up with me and these obsessive upgraditis streaks I go on sometimes. When I purchased the Epic 60.500 7.1 package I was really torn between the M60s and the M80s. Now here I am awaiting delivery of my new Axiom’s on Friday and I am already wondering if I should have gone with the 80s.

I have searched these forums and see that this very same decision has be agonized over by several other people as well. It always seems to end up with the consensus that if you can you should upgrade to the M80s. So may answer would seem to be easy…except.

It seems I have a bad receiver combination, the Onkyo 805. As I said above my wife has been more than understanding in the last month and a half. I upgraded to the Sony KDS 60A3000, the Onkyo 805 and the Epic 60.500 7.1. I can squeeze out the $300+ to upgrade to the 80s, but after that my budget is tapped out for sure. So there is really no money left to return and upgrade the Onkyo to something like the Denon. For what it is worth I have had no Lip Sync issues to date and my Onkyo is open on top and the side so my heat temps have not been bad at all.

These are going into a 2200 cubic feet room. So what would your advice be?

1 – Be happy with the great speakers I have and stay with the M60s

2 – Ship the M60s back and upgrade to the M80s even though I would be using the Onkyo 805

Wait till you hear the system first and then if you feel the M60s to be lacking anything consider the upgrade.

What Jake Washed.
You have 30 days to try them out and see if they meet your needs. Try them for a couple of weeks and let us know what you think.

I agree with the gang, wait until you hear the M60's first as they are really great speakers. Your room is not very large and I think you will be more than satisfied with your choice.

"To thine own self be true."

You've got to ask yourself, "Even if these M60's are fantastic, am I going to play the 'what-if' game"?

For me, the answer was yes. I knew that I just had to have the M80's because otherwise I'd always wonder what they were like. I knew that if I bought M60's, that in 6 months or a year I'd be right back on Axiom's site trying to convince myself to order M80's, and then stuck wondering what to do with a pair of M60's. A year later, when the $300 is irrelevant, I'm still absolutely thrilled with my M80's. The M60's are fantastic speakers too, but would I be as happy? Knowning myself, I would not.

That said, are you 100% sure that the Onkyo won't work with 4-ohm speakers? Onkyos usually have very robust amplification sections, and I thought that Onkyo (and Denon) were two of the most recommended brands for driving M80's. I could be wrong. Keep in mind that the M80's may set of an inflamation of upgradeitis. It did for me.

But as the other's have said, since your M60's have already shipped, you might as well set them up and listen to them. You've got 30 days to make up your mind. You may decide that they're all you'll ever want.

In my case, I gambled that my c2002 Pioneer Elite AVR would be able to drive them. It could not at 'loud' volumes. Clipping and distortion. Another $500 to Emotiva solved that problem.

Make sure you hit up the user "playitloud." He should be getting his M80 system any day and is going to be driving it with an Onkyo (not sure which one).

He can probably help you answer the question on the receiver's capabilities once he gets it set up. In the meantime, however, I'd take the advice here, and listen to the M60's. I think you'll be quite happy, though the "what if" game can be painful indeed! No matter how much you like them, if you hear that voice in your head, I'd go ahead and do the upgrade in the first 30 days.

This is pretty much where my wife is coming from. She knows me better than anyone, she just knows that when something is bugging me I have a hard time letting it go. I think she would rather me spend $300 now instead of buying new again in 4 or 5 months from now.



I think it is the opposite, Onkyo is a brand which Axiom does not recommend for use with the M80s. I do not know if that was testing with older models or the new models like my 805. The Onkyo manual does state:

4 ohms:
Select if the impedance of any
speaker is 4 ohms or more but
less than 6.

6 ohms:
Select if the impedances of all
speakers are between 6 and
16 ohms.

So I think it can handle them, just not sure if it would have issues or not. I am not even sure what setting I would use since I would have speakers of each (4ohm,6ohm,8ohm)



I am re-wiring and painting my room, so I will not be able to set up or test much for a few weeks. Part of me wants to hook up the M60s and test, while part of me wants to just upgrade to the M80s so I will be all ready to go once I am up and running again in about two weeks.

Now here is where you started me back on a path I was looking at before. I almost thought about getting the M80s in my original order with the plan of getting a amp later this year around Christmas time. I am pretty much a noobie when it comes to amps so this might be a stupid question so bare with me. Could I have an amp run fronts and centers maybe and let the Onkyo handler the rest. Would this get me away from the issue with the Onkyo, if I do have one. Is this even possible or something people do?

Omaha, no matter what, leave the receiver on the 8 ohm setting. Any other will limit the amount of power it can put out. Unless you have a cavernous room and consistently listen at rock concert levels, the Onkyo should be fine. I've read it does run hot, so be aware of enough venting space for it.

Also, yes, you can run a separate amp to power your front speakers and let the Onkyo handle the rest. The amp hooks up to the receiver's pre-outs.

Leave it set at 6ohm or off if possible, that switch is not needed for reasons that someone else can probably explain better than I.

Yes, if you are worried about the Onkyo or it does't perform how you like, you can have a 2 channel amp run the M80's and the receiver run the rest.

There is always a faster typer in the group.

Call the shipping company right now and tell them to ship the 60s back. The 80s are what you want and what you NEED .

Before settling on an M80 / Onkyo 805 combination, I highly recommend reading this thread I started last summer. In short, I returned the 805 and went with a separate amp (Axiom 1400-8) for my M80's. I know that's a huge step up, but forum users like terzaghi have had good luck running M80's with Denon AVRs.

* scratches head wondering what a typer is?! *

As long as we say the same thing, our messages reinforce each other. It's a good thing!

And here I was trying to be nice and not get him more confused and aggrevate the upgradeitis bug.

If the M60s are on their way, you at least owe it to yourself to have a listen before shipping them back, so you will at least have an idea of what the differences are and what you are paying $300 more for.

Well, that was a good read. Kind of a bummer though, I must admit. I was really kinda sold on upgrading to the M80s and later in the year picking up an amp to run just those. However, it sounds like it would be a bad idea running the M80s on the Onkyo by itself for any amount of time.

I really like the sound and performance of the Onkyo and besides this issue with not being able to handle a 4ohm load I have had no issues with the receiever at all. Even if I did, right now it would probably be little to much to swing trying to upgrade both the receiver (+$400) and the M80s (+320), so I think I will be staying with the M60s. My room is small, around 2200 cubic feet, and I am sure the differeces are not earth shattering. At least that is what I am going to tell myself. Thanks again for yours and everyone elses response. This is really a great friendly place for info.

FWIW - Given the size of your listening area, I think you're making the right decision for your situation. I haven't personally heard the M60's, but I know from reading here and many other places that they are held in very high regard. I look forward to hearing how your M60's sound with the 805.

Blu, regardless of your speakers, there's no need to think that your 805 needs an "upgrade"; this tests as a very powerful amplifier, including into 4 ohms, and should have no problem in most applications with either the M60s or the M80s(which use slightly less power). Disregard any suggestion in the manual or elsewhere to apply a lower impedance setting; all this does is to reduce the maximum power available.

I had 60's for years in a room that is almost 4 times bigger than yours, they are great speakers, don't let any of my 80's members fool ya.

Blu,

Do not be discouraged from buying the 80s and pairing them up with the 805. You will not need the massive amount of power that Haylo was trying to muster and besides, he was erroneously told to set it to 4 Ohms.

Do yourself a favor and get the 80s. I've had the good fortune to compare jakewash's 60s to my 80s and I can tell you that there is a definite difference. You won't know it until you hear it yourself but once you do, you'll understand how much better the 80s are. Once jakewash heard the difference, he upgraded.

You and your loved ones should not be cheated out of the opportunity to experience such a wonderful electroacoustic transducer .

The 80's are better, because they are Axiom's top of the line, that does not mean everyone should get 80's or that 60's aren't great. This is true with all speaker companies.

Blu, coming from someone that has owned both for over 2 years each, don't lose any sleep if you decide to go with 60's. Yes there is a difference, but I would not call it huge, especially if your listening at 1/4 watt.

What are your room dimensions, which wall will the speakers go against and how far from them will you be sitting?

This is true. I did try going back to the 8 Ohm setting and was not at all comfortable with the temperature of the 805 after some listening. Everyone's situation is different. I do not have a closed room as in lieu of one wall the room opens up into the upstairs area of my home. With the amount of open area I just felt comfortable with more power. This was taken during construction, facing right from the approximate seating position. The kitchen in the background also opens up to the left into a living room (hidden behind the upper flight of steps in this pic).

Every time I log back on here I think I get more confused and I seem to change my mind. So where am I now?

- I am for sure going to demo the M60s. It is going to me just a partial setup, but I should be able to get an idea about whether or not they will work.

If I still want to upgrade I am looking at these options....

a. Keeping the Onkyo and trying the M80s with it. Some people think this will be ok.

b. If it turns out I have issues I will add amp to run the M80s and maybe the center. Something around $500 dollars if possible.

c. The Onkyo is still within the 30 days and I could send back to Onkyo and try to find the popular Denon 3808ci that seems to be a favorite around here for around $1100.

These have all been approved by the wife....just have to make some decisions. Thanks again for all your input, I will learn more tomorrow....

WAF is half (sometimes much more) of the battle!

Sounds like you are on your way, try the 60s in 2 channel, which are the only speakers in question, and go from there. One step at a time.

As Mojo mentioned I upgraded from the 60s after hearing the 80s, but I was also going from M22s, and the drop in the vocal presentation from M22 to the M60 was quite large to me, so I HAD to upgrade, you are not me, so you need to make the decision on what you hear. Once I removed the M22s out of my HT room and just listened to the M60s with no comparisons, the M60s sounded really good. I really liked them and wished I could have kept them as well as buy the M80s.

And BTW, the sound difference between the Onkyo and Denon, well there isn't any, they are both good receivers, just the Onkyos are known to run warmer than Denons.

I'm late to the party but I'll add my 2 cents worth. Well actually I'll keep the 2 cents 'cause I need every penny I can get so I can get M80s as soon as possible.

Thats a fine spouse you have there. Regardless of how you decide, give her a big hug for all of us and tell her just how great she is.

I had the good fortune to be able to listen to both in and a/b audition recently. There is a definate difference between the 60s and 80s. At $300 more its a simple decision.

They do both sound very good.

Blame it on those nasty people at Axiom for pricing their top line speaker at pocket change above the M60.

Edit: Can't comment on the Onkyo as I don't know anything about it.

Phase one complete....all the boxes arrived this morning already. I must be lucky with my local fedex, all the box are in good shape. Now time to hook up the 60s and check them out.

My room is a pretty typical rectagular basment room. 24ft long, 12ft wide. The ceiling is dropped and is around 7.5 feet. The set up will be across the 12 feet width. The seating is against one wall, so I would guess that the speakers would be somewhere around 10 feet away.

Have a chance to listen to the M60s yet?

Ok..I know I am talking to myself, but here is the latest. First, after carrying in all the box into my basement from the garage my initial assement was in correct. These boxes are torn up, jeesh. A couple are missing complete little chunks. Good thing Axiom packs this stuff so well.

Ok, now the real info, the M60s. First off let me say even though they are just the Boston Cherry, these things sure look nice. A real step up from my old Polks. So, I hooked up the 60's and my iPod to the Onkyo. I played some Jack Johnson, followed by some Metallica. I have to say I am pretty impressed!!

Bass response seemed much better than I was expecting. Mids and highs seemed pretty crisp and accurate. I then hooked up my old Velodyne CT-100 and even with that sub they seemed to blend real well. If these sound this good, I can only imagine the 80s.

However, with how good these sound to me and considering room size and the fact I was wrong about the return window on the 805; I think I might be leaning towards keeping the 60s. The funny thing is the wife is still thinking I should get the 80s.

Go figure, I think she still thinks I may flip my stance in the long run. Maybe I will still get the 80s and get an amp later on. One thing for sure I would not look forward to packing these mosnters back up. Well for now I am going to jam some more tunes and work these out some more.

The 80s sound like a veil has been lifted off the 60s. Better bass and better imaging beyond the speaker boundaries as well.

I haven't listened to them back to back, but I think you're overstating things by a tad, Mojo. Also, -500 points for using "veil has been lifted."

Try placing them about 10 feet apart since you are sitting 10 feet away. Experiment with toeing them in and not.

Right now they are a litte over 11 feet apart with a slight toe in towards the center sitting area. I will say, if the 80s sound that much better, I am not sure I would ever leave my basement if I got them. I have to say, if I did not have the Onkyo I am pretty sure I would be getting the 80s.

Ok...more talking out loud. Since the Onkyo is outside of the 30 day return window. I got to stay with the Onkyo, which I actually like anyways. I am now thinking of giving these guys a call and see when this amp will be available.

Emotiva

Keep the Onkyo, have this run the 80s.... Anyone ever use this brand with Axiom stuff. It sounds like it should be able to push the 80s...

Randy (Sirquack), had an Emotiva amp with his M80s for a short while. He had problems with the amp shutting down. There is a thread on it somewhere. Randy's room, though, is roughly the size of Rhode Island and he likes to listen at rock concert levels.

Operating under normal circumstances, the Emotiva amp should be fine.

Make sure you try some source material other than compressed stuff from the ipod...

The XPA-2 and XPA-5 are completely different amp and architecture than what Randy had.

And, yeah, definitely listen to some uncompressed source material.

Good catch, Tom!

This is a great idea, I just don't have alot of options at this time because everything is torn apart. I did hook up a CD player and played some regulat CDs and they sounded even better. I would like to try some of my Blu-rays with a uncompressed soundtrack, but I think I will make decesion before I am ready to do that.

Ok...I am sure by now you people think I am crazy. This situation is fluid and seems to changing as the day passes. My brother came over the hear the M60s. He liked them alot, better than his Paradigm towers he has and has loved for years.

Thing is he has been looking for a new receiver. He says he would be interested in taking the Onkyo 805 off my hands for what I paid. So, now I am back to where I was before I thought I could not unload the Onkyo.

Keep the Onkyo and the M60s

or

Sell the Onkyo, upgrade to the M80s and call 6ave.com to try and pick up the Denon 3808 for a decent price.

Thanks for listen guys, at this point I think I have just become a rambling fool...coo coo for speakers...

As an avid iPod (compressed music) listener who hadn't bought a CD for about 3 years before getting my Axioms, I can tell you I was amazed at the difference between the compressed music and the CD versions... I have a dock to pipe the iPod into my sound system and also use "AirTunes" to play music remotely over the system. These were my main source of audio for the last ~2 years.

I realize this is obvious to so many here, but after this long hearing nothing but compressed music, dropping the CD into the player and hearing the original source music was exactly like "lifting the veil" Mojo talked about.* Now just wait until you run a BluRay audio track through the Axioms.

* (I'll take the -500 point demotion too)

The fact that you have the M60s and are already finding a way to get the M80s instead should answer your question. Now you have a way to do it that refutes the only reason you could think of not to...the Onkyo...so jump at it.

The same logic that had you hold on to the M60s applies with the M80s. Now that you've heard the M60s, if you get the M80s and for some strange reason you hate them (you won't) you could always return them and get the M60s back.

6ave was great to me for the Denon 3808. 1098 shipped and it came in 3 days!

Him being willing to take the Onkyo off your hands is a sign from the audio gods. Smite them not.

80's and 3808CI. Then you won't have any reason to look back.

I agree the 3080CI and the 80's, it's pretty obvious that you won't be completely satisfied until you have the best of both.

The ultimate solution... Make him a package deal on the M60's & Onkyo together, and tell him he can't have them until all of your new stuff comes in.

Seriously though, it's no contest. Finding a way around the Onkyo problem is indeed a sign from above... you'll never look back if you take the opportunity. On the other hand, imagine how many times you'll wonder "what if" if you don't do the upgrade...

You guys are all pretty much right I think. I would not want to smite the audio gods. I am really leaning towards going with the Denon and the M80s. I like the M60s alot, but it seems agreed upon that I will hear a big difference jumping to the Denon and the M80s.

Here is the last question I am asking myself. Will the performance upgrade be a $700 dollar value upgrade? That is around what it will be costing me and this is really the last sticking point on this wild ride. I think I am going to listen to some more tunes and think on it over the weekend.

myrison - You idea of the package deal with the Onkyo did not slip my mind. I did actually try to sell that and he is seriously thinking of buying some, but after hearing the M60s, I think he too is asking himself how good must the M80s sound.

Which puts a new complexion on things. If he is seriously considering M80s himself, do you screw him over with the Onkyo? Myself, I would in a heartbeat [scumbag tortured me for years (mine not yours)]). Most likely though, he'll just be wishy washy so strike while the iron is hot.

As for veils, they can be pretty diaphanous, so lifting one may actually be a pretty minor adjustment. Like pulling earplugs might be a more dramatic statement (not from me as I have not heard the 60s).

Alright, I've been lurking here for months just dreaming of the day when I can order a full Axiom M80/500/QS8 system. I've never posted. But OmahaBlu, even I know what to do, sell the Onkyo, and get the M80s, quickly.

I think the $700 might sound like a lot to spend now when you already enjoy the 60s, but ask yourself how long you'll keep the new setup.

In my case, after listening, I really cannot imagine replacing the 80s or the receiver in less than 5 years, which is how long I had my last setup. Of course, time may prove me wrong, and everyone's situation is different (jakewash and his revolving door of subwoofers comes to mind) ;), but if you're going to have it at least that long, you spread the $700 out over a long period of time, and get one helluvalot of enjoyment out of it to boot. (trust me, you will feel LOTS better once you've made the decision)

Not to mention, the Denon has some fantastic networking capabilities that I think are really worth the upgrade if you have a home network and are interested in streaming music from your home computer... plus the ability to do firmware updates in-house without taking to a dealer... all of that adds up to a lot of value in my book. Plus you mentioned you've got the wife's approval? Don't second guess yourself any more my friend, it doesn't get any better than this!

OmahaBlu, it's pretty safe to say you've got a nasty upgradis bug, and with some of the forum members here (Mojo ) they will make sure your bug is well fed.

I love my 60's and ended up exchanging my entire system recently for the High Gloss finish. I could have went with the 80's (which I've heard at the factory) but I've always preferred the look of my 60's and I am completely happy with their sound. I've had 60's for a few years now and at first I thought the upgrade bug would bother me but it hasn't. I also started out with a EP500 when they first came out but ended up going with a HSU VTF3-MKII instead.

Whatever your decision is, good luck and don't spite the audio gods on the offer to help you unload the Onkyo. By the way, your wife sounds great and you seem to have good luck..pass it on

In Soviet Russia, audio gods smite you!

I think someone meant spite...

My Emotiva LPA-1 drives the M80's to levels I cant stand without showing any sign of shutting down. I have read that the XPA series are class AB and not H like the MPS so the power supply may hold up better to the 4 ohm load. I will be upgrading to the XPA-5 as soon as I can. Not that I need it!

I'm recommending the 80s only because I've heard almost the entire speaker line-up from Axiom and find that the 80s really are an incredible speaker. If someone is willing to spend the money on the 60s and can't afford the 80s, I suggest they save up the extra $300 or so bucks until they can.

Having owned the M3's then the M60's then the M80's I would have to agree with Mojo. I have no regrets.

yep! for 300 - u r almost there.

Heck you could road trip to Des Moines, bring your 60's along, and compare to my 80's. It has been some time since I listened to 60's...

Also, if you want to get the M80's and save a little more cash go through the factory outlet.

That's a great idea but be careful...Randy's environment is a little strange .

House of cards folks, house of cards!! I seems like I may have spited the audio gods after all. Went over with the wife and kids to visit my brother and his soon to be wife. (May). Casual convresation brought up the Onkyo and....well..lets say that this plan was not soon-to-be wife approved. So there you go, it all falls apart.

Bad luck? Maybe not, today I did something I have not done in a long while. I set back and just listened to some cds. Almost 5 hours of just music. After that I started thinking I am going to be listening to a lot more music. I really started looking at an amp to drive my fronts, just some more upper end power.

So I think I am nearing the end of this road. I am going to try the 80s with the Onkyo and most likely this amp ( Emotiva XPA-2 ) If for some reason this does not work, I will keep the amp bring back some 60s and rock the house. Wish me luck it has been a wild ride!!!

That's a sweet-looking amp and at a great price to boot. I'm actually tempted to look into that more if Axiom doesn't introduce their 2-channel A1400 soon.

Ask if they have a fan in it.

Blu, there's no way that what you're going to set up won't "work", since you'll be actually be experiencing reality rather than reading rumors and the rehashing of audio mythologies. As the tests show, your 805's amplifier puts out enough power into 4 ohms to reach a dangerously high sound level with your M80s. No luck will be necessary; just listen and enjoy.

It's interesting that Emotiva sells their 5-channel amp for the same price as the 2-channel. It's a little lower output per channel, but 5 channels instead of 2... What else am I missing in the differences between the two, or is this normal pricing given the difference in output? (Disclaimer: I've never seriously amp shopped before)

Now that you've pointed out the 5-channel amp, I don't think there would be any audible difference between that and the 2-channel. Unless you want to use the 2-channel in bridged mode for double the power. I can't imagine driving that kind of power into my 80s. First, I'd go deaf. Second, I think the 80s would vapourize .

But, what a way to go

Yes, but it'd be unacceptable to take the M80s with you on the way out.

From the Emotiva forum :

Mark, the quoted Emotiva forum material is simply another example of amp designer hot air. "Dampening factor" as they term it, is a minor factor in modern amplifier design, and any competently designed modern solid state unit is well into double digit figures for that spec, which studies have shown is more than adequate. Their "definition and control" statement is an appeal to the uninformed who naively think that more is better.

Agreed. Burn the witches .

Oh, I know (know as in figured) all about wild, irrelevant specs and claims. That's part of the fun reading some of the other forums! I was just answering myrison. They are the same price 'cause they use the same number of components(ok, gross oversimplification)!

Well, I have been busy since the last update. I finally got the M60s shipped off and received the M80s. I got my room pretty much done, got some touch up painting to do and some cable managment stuff to work on....but enough about that. This last weekend I got everything hooled up and took everyhting for a spin.

OMG!!!! First off I can not believe the EP500. The whole house was shaking and I could actually feel the pressure changes in the room. Watched a bit of Lord of the Rings: Return of the King on TNTHD saturday night and there was a seen with the wind whipping around which just sounded incredible.

The M80s sound and look amazing!!! I have cranked the Onkyo 805 listening to Blu-rays, CDs and my iPod without any clipping or overheating. I am running the Onkyo at 6 Ohms and have not had any extreme heat at all.

Here is maybe a stupid question, what would clipping even sound like. I have never had this issue and even though I have not had any issue to date I just want to know what exactly I would hear.

Clipping can occur if the amplifier doesn't have enough power to reproduce the signal requested of it at the level requested, it chops off part of the signal and delivers that to the outputs. This results in distortion which can be anywhere from inaudible to a very fuzzy sound depending on how much of the signal is chopped off or clipped. In some cases it may be difficult to distinguish clipping from a poor recording.

Very good, Blu; enjoy.

OB: Enjoy your speakers.