Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners I have more bass punch WITHOUT a sub

You're right Steve, from Denon's oh so well documented owner's manual

"Select LFE+Main if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer."

But, Ken was also right as well, as the mains will still be doubling up a certain amount of bass depending on the crossover.

Yep, that's why you have to make sure you set the front's to small.

I can say I have the same feelings as Terzaghi - I feel the M80s alone provide the best feel for music that is only 2 channel. This does vary by recording some, but for the majority this is what I prefer.

This made me also wonder if something was wrong with my setup, but the SMS-1 and EP500s do perform excellently for multichannel soundtracks, no matter if they are movies or music on DVD, SACD or DVD-Audio. I don't know what is left to put the blame on but my processor that is converting the 2 channel to 5.1. I gave up trying to figure it out and just enjoy the music in the method that sounds best to me.

It also could be that the EP500 is softer and has less "punch" than others.

Granted each setup and room is different. I do feel the punch is there with a source recording that is mixed 5.1, such as DSOTM or Brothers In Arms SACDs, or Beatles Love DVD-A.

Doesn't setting the Mains to small already make it that setting(Mains+LFE) then? All LFE is now directed to the sub for any speaker set to small as well as all bass below the crossover point.

No, at least not on the Denon AVRs. That's why the separate setting is there.

This was noticed by another gentlemen on an Amazon review of the AVR-2807 (read 5th and 6th paragraphs of "Flaws substantially outnumber the good aspects, March 30, 2006"):

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000F44NU4?filterBy=addTwoStar

Here is what he noticed:

"If you do not use a subwoofer, the main right and left speakers will always be treated as "Large" speakers, and not be subjected to high-pass filtering. If subwoofer is set to "Yes", an additional subwoofer mode setting is enabled, which controls how the subwoofer output signal is derived. If you select "LFE+Main", the bass from the main channels is added to the subwoofer even though that bass is not filtered out of the main speakers when they are set to "Large". The instructions for setting the crossover frequencies state that if the main speakers are set to "Large", the crossover frequency for them cannot be set or adjusted unless the subwoofer mode is set to "LFE+Main". That is the appropriate behavior for the case when subwoofer is set to "Yes", but the crossover frequency assigned to the main speakers is meaningless if subwoofer is set to "No", and as such, the capability to adjust that crossover frequency for the main speakers should have been disabled in the on-screen menu. It is confusing to allow you to make an adjustment that has no effect, and because of other issues with the automatic equalization, this caused me to wonder if high-pass filtering was being applied to the main speakers even though subwoofer was set to "No". "LFE+Main" was evidently the default setting for the subwoofer mode, and in order to change it in the effort to disable the inconsistent crossover setting, it was necessary to first set subwoofer to "Yes", then change the mode setting from "LFE+Main" to "LFE", and then set subwoofer back to "No".

The manual states: "The crossover frequency mode is valid only when subwoofer is set to `ON' and when one or more speakers are set to `Small'". This is clearly incorrect, i.e., if subwoofer is set to "No", the main speakers will be set to "Large", and the crossover frequency setting for the surround speakers that are set to "Small" is meaningful. Even more confusing is the fact that there is a crossover frequency setting enabled for the LFE channel even though the crossover frequencies for all the other channels are set independently. This setting is separate from the one that allows you to apply a common crossover frequency to all speakers for which a crossover frequency is meaningful, which is useful in the case of a sub/sat system where all the speakers except for the subwoofer are identical. The manual says nothing at all about the separate and mysterious LFE crossover frequency. "

I set my LFE crossover to 90 hz, which is above the crossover frequency for all other channels.

Btw, this anomaly has also been confirmed by Audioholics:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/denon-avr-5805/surround-processing-and-bass-management

"A few notes about bass management logic for the AVR-5805

* If you set Mains Small, all other speakers default to Small
* If you set any speaker to Large, the bass will not go to the subwoofer, except if you select "LFE + Main ".
* If "LFE + THX" is selected then bass from the Mains will not be directed to the subwoofer if the Mains are set Large, even in 2CH mode.
* The AVR-5805 has completely independent bass management settings (ie. crossover, distance compensation, level, etc) for 2CH mode. Not since the days of the Aragon Soundstage have we seen this sort of flexibility, especially in a receiver!"

I have all my crossover frequencies set at 90Hz in the AVR, and the subs set at bypass/150Hz. I got the best room response with this setting. The AVR sub output is also of course set to "LFE+Main".