Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners I have more bass punch WITHOUT a sub

Try this test:

Set fronts to Small
Set the AVR to LFE
Set the AVR Crossovers to 80Hz (all channels, even 2 channel/direct mode)

Place your hand on the M80’s woofer. It moves a lot
Place your hand on the sub. It moves a little

Now

Set the AVR to LFE+Main (Both in the sub setting and the 2 channel/direct mode setting)

Place your hand on the M80’s woofer. It moves much less.
Place your hand on the sub. It moves much more.

With a Denon, the proper setting is to set all speakers small, and set AVR to “LFE+main” (Both in the sub setting and the 2 channel/direct mode setting.

I’m not sure if this will help as I’m getting a little confused reading through some of the posts but I tested all this about a year ago when I got my system and people on various forums were telling me I was “wrong” for running my Denon 2807 as LFE+Mains with the mains set to large and crossed over at 200 Hz well above the roll off of the EP500. I measured a substantially flatter bass response below 100 Hz and the bass sounded tighter.

I tested using the Avia 200 Hz and down low frequency pass from the Left Main to the subwoofer with the sub always set to yes. All tests done with SPL meter held near driver cone.

1. Main=small / Sub=LFE - main Spl dropped and Sub spl increased as signal passed through the crossover setting.

2. Main=small / Sub=LFE+Mains - same as above.

3. Main=large / Sub=LFE - Spl stayed steady at the main through full range. No output from the subwoofer.

4. Main=large / Sub=LFE+Main - Spl stayed steady at the main through full range. Spl at subwoofer increased as signal passed through the crossover setting.

I also tested the LFE crossover setting on the crossover menu. Using both the 200 Hz and down low frequency pass from the Left main to the sub and the 100 Hz and down LFE channel only test tone.

1. The LFE crossover had no effect on the signal being redirected from the Left main.

2. On the LFE channel test tone only the signal below the crossover setting was playing from the subwoofer.

I’m not sure what other people have tested and certainly my results only apply to the 2807 however as far as I can see it works just like John has been saying it should. Which is how I read (well best I could) the manual.

As I understand it the LFE+Main setting is to let you use your mains (assuming they go low) to help balance out the bass the same why you would by running multiple subwoofers. In my room this measurably works in the 40 to 100 Hz range.

Johnk, the problem was that I was having MORE bass in direct mode, which i know was wrong because direct mode does not use the subwoofer like you said. I knew something was wrong because I should have had better bass in stereo mode (with the sub active).

I mentioned what had caused the problem but it has likely got burried in all of these posts.

Basically my sub was set to -10db for 2 channel mode and it should have been at -2db. As a result, the frequencies below 60hz were being rolled off to the sub which was not properly calibrated for 2 channel mode. It was calibrated correctly for surround mode, so that is why I thought everything sounded good for movies.

Now everything sounds great with mains set to small with a 60 hz Xover to the sub.

I ran the real traps test tones the other day and noticed a pretty good dip at 60hz. I bet that is much better now that I have the sub calibrated correctly for 2channel mode.

The problem is that the only way to adjust channel levels in 2channel mode is by clicking in the middle button on the remote while listening to a 2 channel source. All of the 2 channel listening I have done lately was through the network interface, and for some reason the center button is changed to a pause button in network mode so there is no way to check/adjust channel levels while listening to networked audio.

I had to put a cd into my DVD player and adjust is from there.

My quick tests came up with these results I used Binkster test tone cd and started off with the 20hz and went to 40hz tone to avoid the XO point.

Mains Large XO=60 SUB LFE only: no sub for any of the 3 modes(Stereo/Direct/PureDirect)

Mains Large XO=60 Sub LFE+Mains: full output to both sub and mains in all 3 modes.

Mains small XO=60 sub LFE: no sub for Direct nor Pure Direct but did have sub in stereo mode and I believe the crossover was active as well, not much out of the mains till near the XO(50hz).

Mains small XO=60 sub LFE+Mains: I had full range through the mains and sub working for all 3 modes.

To add to the fun... on the Denon 3805, the 'Subwoofer Mode' option (where you choose LFE or LFE+Main) is NOT available when the speakers are set to small.

For music I run 2-channel in direct mode/small/80hz xo, with output to the sub.

So based on grunt's post above, it appears that the 3805 is defaulting to LFE+Mains mode when running mains as small.



Interesting jason, that you would have full range to your mains in this mode. Can't explain that one.

Spoiler - Wow, that is weird! On the 3806 you can set LFE+Main when mains are set to small (that's how I have mine set).

Jason - It is interesting that you are getting full range to your mains in this mode. Are you sure?

I am starting to believe that depending on what model of the Denon AVR you have, it acts differently...

SRoode- same thing with the 3808- LFE+mains can be set regardless of speaker size.

Jakewash,

So it appears that small with LFE+main is the same thing as large with LFE+main?

I think the best setting for me is small with LFE. This allows for a "normal" config where the crossover behaves 'regular'. As an added bonus you can just press the direct button and it is like setting your speakers to large with no crossover... easy way to go straight to strictly 2 channel listening with no sub.

So it seems like when set to large and LFE+main (or small and lfe+main apparently) The frequencies below the crossover point are getting duplicated. I suppose this might be worth experimenting with, and maybe it could be used to overcome my 60hz dip. (allthough i suspect that my dip is not as bad now that my sub is properly calibrated.)

Thanks for testing this out jakewash.

Wow, I'm glad we got this all cleared up. It's a very concise thread.

Just to add to the confusion a little more, I failed to reset my 3808 so I suspect the Audyysey settings were causing the mains to stay in large mode as was mentioned earlier. I will reset my 3808 and try them again, only it won't happen till after the weekend.

On the plus side I finally have the SVS back at my house and had to try it out rather quickly before I go to work, all I can say is there is a difference between the PB12-NSD and the PB13-Ultra.

What about the MFW-15?