Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Receiver decoding vs source decoding

What is the point of the new receivers with all their internal decoding of the lastest formats when the source players also do the same decoding ? I'm looking for a solid, powerful receiver but the more I research, the more I get overwhelmed with the decoding and especially the video features .. If the BD player decodes the BD formats, then why do I need it on the receiver ?

Also, if my source is already 1080P or 1080I, what do I care about all the " up converting " features ? but they all seem to have it and make a point of showing it off .. big deal.. I have an Anthem AV20 with video in and I have never used it. I plug my dvd player and sat box directly to my tv.. not my pre-pro or receiver..

This is like when the first DVD players came out, the player did the AC3 and DTS decoding, the receivers did not.. then the receivers did and the players no longer did any decoding..

So, is this the same situation again and we are in the "transition" period until all receivers decode and none of the players do ?

I makes it difficult to choose !..

I like it when people answer their own questions. Yes, it is very, confusing.

I suspect that decoding will migrate to the receiver because all the content people want to push it as far down the chain as possible. I'm sure that Sony would love to put the decoders only in the display.

So people can have a choice. Some die hard audio nuts swear up and down that there is a difference, but I sure can’t tell and every year when I get my hearing tested, the techs tell me my hearing is well above average. It is cool to see the indicator lights tell me I have DD-TruHD and DTS-Master coming into the AVR, but that’s about all I get out of it. I suppose why it’s so debated is that it’s new and up till very recently, no player or receiver could decode DTS-Master.

Video scaled and de-interlaced in the receiver or the display does make a difference. Some do it better than others, but most don’t do either well. For BR/HD 1080P source inputs, there’s no reason to mess with them at all. However, 1080i from cable / satellite can be greatly improved by a good video processor as well as 480i from DVD. 480i from satellite / cable….forget it.

Also, depending on the "current-ness" of your receiver and whether it can do HDMI switching (let alone 1.3a), when the Blu Ray player does the decoding, you have to send the audio out via analogue cables (which are fine, don't get me wrong) using a pcm signal. The problem that I perceive (and face) is that the Blu Ray players do not adjust the sound field to compensate for room irregularities. That is, when a Blu Ray player is outputting the 5.1 signal (whether it be DTS-MA, TrueHD, DD+ or the standard DD or DTS), there is no chance to monkey with the paramaters to adjust for volume or distance, since (at least on my Yammy), those features are disabled when I use the multi-channel in sectio of the receiver.

At the end of the day, I think it will come down to a versatility issue. Having the receiver control the soundstage simply makes more sense than requiring each different component to be tuned accordingly. I don't think that the time has yet come for a person with a good reciever to upgrade simply for the satisfaction of seeing the little lights go on, telling you that you're receiving a TrueHD or a DTS-MA signal.

In re: upscaling - the issue is really with legacy discs (read: standard DVDs). Assuming you're going to get rid of your standard DVD player when you purchase a Blu Ray unit, you'll want it to do a good job upconverting that signal to match your TV's resolution. Great debate is had about this topic. At the end of the day, the choice on where to do upconverting (because it will happen somewhere in the chain, whether you like it or not), should depend on which device has the best chips. So, using a cheaper model HDTV, one might defer to the player to do the upconverting. With a more expensive, higher end HDTV, you might want to let the TV do all the scaling. Others might want the player to de-interlace and the TV to upscale. Again, it all depends on the chips in each device.

The other reason to run your video through your new receiver, whether you allow it to upscale or not, is that it overlays the GUI onto the display, which is extremely handy for all of the complicated setup options that the new crop of receivers have available. Just make sure when you're shopping, if this is important to you, that you confirm the GUI can be overlayed on all output resolutions and connection types. Even some of the newer receivers are limited in their ability to output the GUI over HDMI and at all resolutions.

Thanks guys for your wise words.

I have narrowed it down to either the NAD T765 or the Onkyo TX-SR705 or 805.

I'm leaning towards the NAD, but the Onkyo has more " features" than the NAD..trying to decide if those features are actualy required ie: DTS-HD Master audio and DD-HD etc..

The NAD has less bells and wistles, but is more upgradable with the removable boards. I think the power stage is better on the NAD, but Onkyo is no slouch either.

This is to drive an EPIC 500 package with a HD Projector and BD
drive.

If anyone has any advice regarding those 2 receivers, I would love to hear it.

Thank you

Riker

The PS3 decodes and sends PCM via HDMI.

Riker,

Too many issues with Onkyo's for my taste, but many folks around these parts love them....on paper that is. I don't have one, and I would not take serious advice from anyone who doesn't have one either.

Not real sure if the NAD plays nicely with HDMI or not. They've been behind the curve from its inception. Take it from someone who’s been fighting with HDMI from the beginning…..you want to find a processor that gets along well with it or you’ll be in constant frustration. I think Denon is leading the pack in this regards, and for that reason, I would look to Denon first. They have several new models coming out this fall. One of which I’m sure will fall within your budgetary constraints and offer everything you are looking for.

I know one forum member from kansas city (haylo75) had an onkyo 805 that kept shutting down when powering the m80's. I think this was at LOUD listening levels though.

Please note that HDMI switching does NOT mean that the receiver can handle the newer formats.

I can't speak to either of the receivers you're interested in. But if you're going to buy a new receiver, I think it's a good investment to get both TrueHD by Dolby and DTS-MA decoding done by the receiver.

Why would you speak *to* a receiver ?

I guess I should have said "I can't speak to the quality, functionality or value of either of the speakers in question."

To chew him out for dropping your perfect pass, of course.

lol

I completely agree with the Capn.

You and the Cap'n can make it happen...

But you all be frontin' while I be rappin'

Best LOL of the day

I think that everyone is forgetting that with blu-ray it is better to let the player decode the audio as pcm and send it to the receiver if you have any interest in PIP or Web-enabled supplements. If it is sent bitstream then it is not possible to have the audio tracks mixed due to hdmi handshaking. At best your audio will just be downconverted from lossless to lossy and at worst you may not get any audio at all from this additional content. I hope my memory is correct from the article that I read back in February about this.

- Nick

Ok.. Please be patient with me as I try to understand the situation and make an intelligent receiver choice in a new system build.

My facts are this:

A Sony Playstation PS3 will be used as:
1. A gaming console
2. A Blue Ray player
3. A regular DVD player

An Epson Home Cinema 1080P UB projector will be used for:
1. PS2, PS3 Gaming
2. Viewing Blue Ray DVDs via PS3
3. Viewing standard DVDs via PS3
4. Viewing Bell ExpressVu satellite TV, both SD and HD

The speakers are going to be:
1. M80s fronts
2. VP150 center
3. QS8 surrounds
4. EP500 Sub

So given those facts:

1. Do I connect the PS3 directly to the Epson projector via HDMI for video and Digital OUT to the receiver for the sound ? will that give me the DD-HD and DTS MA (decoded by the PS3) or is that not possible via the digital out and I need to use HDMI only, or the 6/7 channel analog outputs.. does the PS3 even have those analog outputs ?

or

2. Do I connect the PS3 to the receiver via HDMI for both video and audio, then out to the Epson ? IF the receiver has internal audio decoding as well (DD-HD and DTS-MA) and video decoding, does it mean that I choose between the receiver chip (faroudja, HQV for video, burr brown, Aureus, TI etc. for audio) and the chip on the PS3 for handling the decoding ? which ever does a better job wins and I disable one or the other so that I don't have " double decoding" ?

Is Video decoding handled by:
1. The PS3 ? as the source of my Blue Ray and DVD and gaming.
2. The receiver ? with it's Faroudja, HQV Reon or whatever else
3. The Epson projector ? with it's PixelWorks, X.V Colour etc..



Given those facts, I am trying to determine if I my receiver needs to have:

1. Upscaling of standard DVDs, or is that handled by the PS3 or projector ? OR Not required because difference is almost NIL so don't even bother ?
2. High quality video processing chip ie: HQV Reon or is that handled by the PS3 or projector ?

To keep in mind:

1. The screen size will 72 and 90 + (have not seen the room yet, so I don't know exactly what size the screen will be)
2. 80% of movies will be Blue Ray, 20% will be standard DVD
3. Very little SD TV will be watched on this setup, other LCD and CRT TVs in the house for " the 6'oclock news"

Other things I am looking for in a receiver are:

1. Good power supply ie: preferably toroidal and enough juice to power Epic 500 with ease.
2. quality components and design
3. ability to connect IPOD, but not with fancy Ipod Docking station etc.. just connect the device and control playback from Ipod device. ( I guess a 3/8 jack is all that is needed ? )

And most importandly,

4. Keep the receiver price under $1500 Canadian.

Short list so far include:
1. NAD T675
2. Onkyo TX-SR805
3. Marantz SR7002
4. Yamaha RXV3800

Thank you all in advance to those who reply with words of wisdom.

Riker

I've been keeping an eye on PS3 for a blue ray player, so I can answer a couple of your questions.

PS3 can not send a DD True HD or DTS Master Audio stream to another component via any cable. It can decode these internally, and output them as PCM over HDMI (at 7.1 I believe).

It can bitstream undecoded 5.1 over HDMI for decoding by the reciever.

The optical audio can only do 5.1, including I believe decoded DD HD or DTS Master Audio, but can't say for certain

The PS3 doesn't have 5.1/7.1 analog audio outputs.

This is the best link I've found, which describes the current (April/May 2008) capabilities of the PS3.
What's on HDTV

Karlman

I don't believe any of the HD sound formats can be sent through optical on any player.

Thanks Karlman,

I appreciated your feedback and will follow that link you included.

Thanks again,

Riker

I've been curious about that, and managed to find the following info from the Dolby Technology site:



So basically it you get the equivalent of a top quality DVD 5.1 sound track, but that's it. From what I have read DTS MA works the same way.. e.g. both have a core 5.1 track that can be down-sampled to SPDIF digital/coax.

Of course DD TrueHD can be 18 Mbtyes/s and DTS MA maxes at 25 Mbtytes..

Stephane, on the point about the video processing of the various sources that you'll be using, of course the projector or other display device has to do any processing necessary if a previous component hasn't done it. This leads to a suggestion that you add the Onkyo 875 to the list of receivers that you're considering, because of the Reon video processor that it uses. Testing has shown that Onkyo has implemented the Reon very well and that its video processing is distinctly superior. This should be available for around $1100CA.

Thanks John,

I got a price of $2000 here in town (Ottawa)and that's why it was off my list, but maybe I can get it cheaper online somewhere, even with shipping etc..

Steph

Thanks Karlman,

So, if I understand correctly:

Only the HDMI output can send decoded DD-HD and DTS-MA to a receiver. The optical output only gives you core downmix but at a higher bandwidth than regular DVD player.

So, my connection would be:
1. PS3 HDMI out to receiver HDMI in and then receiver HDMI out to Epson projector. This will give me up to DD-HD and DTS-MA sound (and everything in between) decoded by PS3 sent as PCM.

2. In that scenario, the Video portion is either "pass through" the receiver or processed by the receiver's chip ie: HQV Reon up to 1080P (and everything below that) and sent to the Epson projector, all via the same HDMI cable.

Cool.. I think I'm starting to get it now.

Thanks guys,

Steph

You can get the Onkyo 875 for $1013 US from amazon.com. I don't know what the shipping would be to Canada though. I got my Onkyo 805 from amazon.com and the shipping was free here in the US.

- Nick

It comes up as $1240 inc. shipping(appears to be a sale right now for $993), about what I paid for my 3808.

I just checked on Amazon.com and that receiver is only shipped in the US.

Major Bummer.. and the Amazon.ca site does not even sell electronics.. that's so frigging lame man.. I'll find a way somehow.. I'm not paying $2000 plus 14% tax when I can get it in the states for $1000.

Road trip!

Riker. You live in Ottawa, its a 45 min drive down to Ogdensburg. Just ship it to the UPS store there and pick it up.

That's what I was thinking, Road Trip and how close can I get this puppy to the border.

UPS store in Ogdensburg, sounds like the ticket

I think I mentionned this before at the beginning, this is for my cousin who is moving to Ottawa in mid July and he entrusted me with the build of his entire system from top to bottom. So I called him and said, this is the receiver you want, and if you want to save a grand, we need to take a road trip to the good old U S of A.. no problems there !.

I am also ordering an Epson 1080P UB and a DA-LITE Cinema Vision from Projector People .com and I will have the whole thing shipped to either to the UPS store or I think my cousin knows someone in NY State so either way..

He's getting the Onkyo 875, Epson 1080P UB, DA-LITE Cinema Vision high contrast grey screen, a PS3 and of course, the EPIC 500 system, which I don't have to go the states to get..Thank GOD FOR THAT !!!

Cheers,
Riker