Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo M22's or M60's with a subwoofer?

Like most all of you, I am thinking of various configurations in the Axiom lineup mixed with my existing equipment that would prove to give me the best performance with the least cost. So, I have a wonderful 12" powered subwoofer that can be used in combination with the Axioms I plan to buy. So my question to those of you who are familiar and experienced Axiomites follows. I listen most exclusively to classical music. Perhaps I will add on to what ever foundation of a system I have to expand into surround for my sacd's and audio dvd's and for home theater. In any case, for now, I want to concentrate on stereo audio. What then would be the difference should I chose between the M60's and M22's in terms of sound. for instance would the M60's give me a fuller midrange and a little better bass with more impact used with my subwoofer, or would the M22's perform as well? The difference in cost (and I am also thinking of the M50's) is quite a bit and to some it may be worth the cost for the 60's or even the 80's. I am unable to audition any speakers; no one in Los Angeles has come forward to offer a listen, so any detailed subjective or objective (if that is possible)response is welcome...Thanks...Lee

Lee, If you always listen with a sub, I do not think you will notice any difference on the bottom end. I did not find much difference between the M22+ sub and M60 when doing an A/B comparison. At the time I felt there was a slight difference, but found it hard to characterize.

I did find that the M80 delivered the most detailed sound of the three. Others feel a little differently.

Don't forget to factor in a stand when you consider the M22.

Lee, as far as someone "coming forward" to offer an audition, although that does happen on occasion when the request is seen, generally the burden is on you to make contact by way of a PM to someone in the area, as shown in the audition thread list.

My music listening also is almost entirely classical and I can assure you that the M22s supported by a good sub(EP500 in my case)do a superb job, including pipe organ recordings. I haven't heard the M60s, but there would appear to be no reason in theory why they would have a "fuller midrange"(whatever that means). The M22s use two 5 1/4" drivers to cover that while the M60s use one 5 1/4". Frequency response graphs indicate that both are substantially flat there and are neither "full" nor depressed.

Ok, thanks for both your views. In fact I haven't used my subwoofer for some time. The sub amp needs a little repairing and it is in the hands of of a skilled technician now. In any case, I have three more questions...what is a "PM"...I'm really not up to speed with these designations. Additionally, Fred...do you think the M80 will do the job on its own w/o a sub? Alan indicated to me that the M80 will do a superb job for all but the most demanding lower frequencies, but with the addition of a sub, the lower end will have more punch and most probably be better balanced with the rest of the sound coming from the speaker. In your opinion, given that I have the funds (and I do) is the cost differential between the 80's with or without the sub and the M22's with the sub worth it? I am careful with $, that's probably why I can afford the 80's....Thanks...Lee

Lee, "PM" is Private Message. If you click on your name you'll see that one of the choices is "send a PM", which you'd title and address to a specific board member. In the "Hearing Things" section there's an auditioning thread that contains a list of those who've indicated a willingness to show off their Axioms. The list may not be entirely up-to-date, however, and a PM may not get noticed if they're inactive. Sometimes Axiom can assist in arranging an audition if they're contacted directly.

Hi Lee. Since music including SACD seems to be the main focus of your system I thought you might find this helpful in deciding between tower or bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer.

http://www.soundstage.com/surrounded/surrounded200307.htm

A few personal observations. The M80s are fantastic w/o a subwoofer. However, since you already have a subwoofer getting a couple M22s will in my opinion work almost as well. In my opinion the extra cost of the M80 is not worth it unless you have a really big room and want to fill it with loud sound.

Besides cost saving (for use elsewhere in your system) bookshelf speakers are often easier to place due to size. Using the subwoofer for lower bass allows you to place the subwoofer for the best bass response while your bookshelf speakers can be placed for best imaging.

I have both M80s and M22s and have compared them closely. While I doubt I’d get rid of my M80s I know that I would be perfectly happy if all I had were my M22s and subwoofer. The only thing the M80s give me that the M22s can’t is the directional feel of bass impacting on me from the front speakers which makes for more realistic explosions in movies. In my opinion for music the M22s and subwoofer actually sound better due to freedom of placement than the M80s in my last listening room, your mileage may vary.

Since you already have a subwoofer, if you got M22s you could put the money you save into getting 2 or 3 additional M22s for a 4.1 or 5.1 setup for your multi-channel SACD and DVD-A discs.

You might also consider using QS4s or QS8s as surrounds. While they are technically a compromise for multi-channel music I find that most of the surround tracks on my 5.1 SACDs are carrying ambient/reflected sounds from the venue recorded in, and the QS speakers are ideal for reproducing this.

Cheers,
Dean

Absolutely! I was quite surprised that I could not hear the difference between the M80s with and without a sub on a number of discs.

What I found when switching directly between the M22+sub and the M80 on its own is that the low end opened up with the M22+sub and the upper end opened up with the M80. By opening up, I mean that the music took on a more life like quality such that you felt you were listening to the band not a recording. The M80s did deliver more detail on the top end. Perhaps this is what 'opens up' the top end.

If you put the above two observations together I would say the differences between the two are quite subtle and not easily heard unless you do a direct comparison.

For movies, and if you listen to any music with an appreciable amount of low bass from pipe organ, you will notice a difference between having a sub and not, even with the M80.

If you watch any movies, you will benefit from both the sub and surrounds. I set out to create a music first system, and I did, but was amazed by the impact that a good system has on movies. I am actually watching more movies than I thought I would because of this.

So, different? Yes, but subtle. Worth it? Thats hard to say. I do not regret what I spent, but, like Dean/grunt I could probably be happy with the M22 as well.

Till upgradeitis hits and then you would be buying the M80s anyway. The M22s are still worth the initial purchase just to be used in other rooms of the house.

Gee, you guys like to keep us on our toes!

Worth it is a very personal thing Bob. Perhaps I should qualify that I found it worth it for me, but the differences are subtle. I do understand where Dean is coming from though.

I had the money for the full deal so I went for it. If I didn't the M22+ sub would still offer most of the value of the M80.

This stuff is hard to put into words. If you look at Alans posts, you will see a similar pattern.

Lee if you can afford the return shipping you might be best served by ordering both M80s and M22s and comparing them yourself. I believe Axiom estimates return shipping to be about 30 USD for 2 bookshelves and 60 USD for 2 towers. Call and they can tell you for sure. I tried this and ended up keeping both though.

Also as Fred says there is a fine line between the M80+sub and M22+sub and we are really not that far apart on how we feel about them. Had we heard them in the same room with the same music I could likely have drawn the same conclusions as Fred, I think the differences are that subtle.



The what if factor is in the end why I bought the M80 since I had the money and didn’t want to revisit my speaker purchase later.

Awww maaaan! now what are we gonna argue about?

I own M22's, M80's, and I have a pretty decent sub. I've experimented with all of them, together and separately.

Personally, if money is an issue, I'd prefer M22's w/ Sub to M80's on their own. From that, I can only assume that my preference would hold with an M60 comparison as well (never having heard M60's). M22's are darn-good speakers. With a really good sub, at normal listening levels, they're every bit as good as M80's. But the bigger your room is and/or the louder you like your music, the more you're going to need the extra drivers of the M60's or M80's. M22's can't touch the floor standers at 'reference' levels. M22's will play loud, but they lose something where M80's (and M60's) remain more composed and musical (IMHO).

I listen to a lot of classical too. Some classical has more bass than others, but I find that my M80's just can't produce enough bass on their own to satisfy me. The best example I can think of is a YoYo Ma cello solo. It sounds much better when my system is in M80+Sub mode vs just M80's on their own. The difference isn't subtle. That's M80+Sub, 40hz (or 60hz, I switch back and forth sometimes) crossover vs. M80's w/ no crossover (large). With the sub, his cello sounds much more life-like. Undertones are richer, there's more 'texture' to the way the bow sounds, and there's just a more 'organic' and grounded feel to the music. It's hard to explain in words, but it's clearly there. Basically, it just sounds more like a live cello solo when the sub is helping out.

And unless it's a small room, M22's definitely need a sub to sound their best.

I'm surprised you can't find anyone in LA for a demo. I'd shoot an email to Axiom and see if they have any suggestions.

Good luck!

OK, good discussion and of course as with all enthusiasts...confusing to one such as me trying to decide. Dang it, I'm inclined to go all out and get the M80's, but I would need to upgrade my receiver. Alan suggested the Denon 2309. My bedroom is about 1925 sq feet and there isn't a lot of room to give the M80 speakers space away from the wall, both from the side and behind...how would they sound so confined? Would it still be better to go with the M22's given those limitations? I suppose I could always upgrade to the 80's if I moved the system into a bigger room, but all my activity in terms of listening is in my bedroom. I don't necessarily listen all high reference levels, but just enough to give me some impact without disturbing the neighbors (I had my bedroom fitted with sound proof windows so I could listen at higher levels and also feel free to play music at 2:00 am). I was impressed with Peter's comments regarding the realism of YoYo Ma's cello sound...that's what I want but in such a small room perhaps the 80's would be too much for me to benefit. Also, When I had the house built, I had home theater wiring installed. However aside from the subwoofer outlet all the speaker outlets are in the ceiling front and rear, probably not the ideal. Any comments if this setup can used effectively used...probably not with Axioms I would guess? My thanks to you from a long-time listener, but a true neophyte to the world of high tech sound....Lee

Your not alone. I finally decided and I'm still confused. Stick around. It only gets more confusing.
And I'm sure that some here are also inclined to spend your money to get M80's.

1925 sq ft is a huge room, I assume your talking cubic ft. The 80's would work, but they would work better if they have a little breathing room. The rear ports need to filter low freq's into the room.

More opinion time here, so don't take my words as gospel...

I believe that 1900cu ft is too small for M80's. As others have said, M80's need room to breathe. My main den is about 3150 cu ft (14x25x9), and I think even that is sort of on the small side for M80's. Might be why the bass response for me isn't as great as others report.

Our bedroom is about 1800cu ft (off the top of my head). I have a pair of M22's being powered by a tiny T-Amp, fed from an iPod dock. No sub, just raw, full-range M22's. The setup sounds fantastic. I'm extremely pleased with it. More than I thought I would be, actually. The smallness of the room, combined with ample sound deadening from the bed, drapes, etc, really 'warms up' the M22's. They'll play fairly loud before the T-amp runs out of juice. I've never tested it with my SPL meter, but it'll play to the point where you'd have to raise your voice to carry on a conversation in the room, with a lovely amount of bass. Very good for classical music. With an amp that puts out more than the meager 9 watts (or whatever) that the T-Amp does, I'm sure they'd go much, much louder.

Well, I have the M20s in a 1800cf room and they sound fine but...

The M22 will do well in that space. The differences between them and the 80s are subtle. If you are concerned about space, go for the M22 + sub (maybe the ep400 since is it so compact).

That's it!!! I'm cancelling everything!

I can't say about M80's, but my M22's paired with a great sub sound awesome, when listening to music it honestly sounds like the M22's are providing the bass. Without the sub i felt they were a little lacking, but once I got it I have never regretted them one bit

My main listening room is about 2600 ft3. I can tell a VERY noticeable difference when my subs are off, and only the M80s are playing (and switched to large). I do not feel that the M80s are overpowering for a room that size.

That being said, I think that once you have a good sub, either the M22s or M80s would be great.

Thats it!!! I'm setting my M80s up in my bathroom! Its gonna be great!!
!!!!

You certainly will be able to remove bran from your diet.

Well, my sub amplifier was fixed and I received it today. This evening I set it up in my 1925 cu ft room (with cathedral ceiling). The bass was overwhelming leading me to believe perhaps the 80's too may: 1) not have enough room to perform to its potential since there isn't sufficient separation from the side and back of the wall for it to breathe...2) It seems that I'd need to purchase an upgraded receiver for about $530 to drive the M80's and 3) most comments seem to be on track and consistent with A/B comparisons of M80' and M22 w/sub as being pretty equal. So I think the best route given my listening space is te3 M22's with a sub. My existing sub even he amp was fixed today blew a crossover circuit and made a sound that scarred the hell out of me this evening. And I am not as satisfied with it as much as I once thought. So my next questions are: Ho will the M60 perform it terms of a decent bass range and would it work well in a 1925 Cubic foot room adequately?

Well, my sub amplifier was fixed and I received it today. This evening I set it up in my 1925 cu ft room (with cathedral ceiling). The bass was overwhelming leading me to believe perhaps the 80's too may: 1) not have enough room to perform to its potential since there isn't sufficient separation from the side and back of the wall for it to breathe...2) It seems that I'd need to purchase an upgraded receiver for about $530 to drive the M80's and 3) most comments seem to be on track and consistent with A/B comparisons of M80' and M22 w/sub as being pretty equal. So I think the best route given my listening space is te3 M22's with a sub. My existing sub even though the amp was fixed today blew a crossover circuit and made a sound adn blew a little smoke that scarred the hell out of me this evening. And I am not as satisfied with it as much as I once thought I would be. So my next questions are: How will the M60 perform it terms of a decent full range speaker and would its range work well in a 1925 Cubic foot room adequately? If I go with the M22's, which Axiom subwoofer would be the best match? My room is acoustically sensitive and I could easily be overwhelmed with sound if not careful...so I need balance. Any suggestions would be welcome....Lee

Lee, I would go with the EP500 just for the flat response in a smaller room, it will help keep room effects to a minimum. IF the EP500 is too much money, then by all means get the EP350, it has a farily flat FR as well and is a great performer. I can't remember if this was for a 2 channel system or not? If it is, then I would also suggest the EP400, it is an amazing little sub and adds just the right amount of low end to music, IMO.

The other option would be to look into some other manufacturers subs, like the Paradigm DSP series which are great performers as well, just the finishes may not match unless you get black.

+1 for Jay's suggestions.

My suggestion would be to order a pair of M22's and try them out without a sub. You might be completely satisfied with their bass response in your small & bass-sensitive room. I know I am with my M22's. You can always order a sub later.

Having not heard *any* Axiom subs ( ) , my only experience is through that of others here. The EP500 is, by all accounts, an amazing sub. You can't go wrong with it. But I suspect that an EP500 is going to be overkill for that size of a room. Sure, it has a gain knob and you can always turn down the output to match the room. But other smaller, less-expensive subs might be a better match. If you've got the dough though, by all means, get an EP500.

I'd think that the EP400 is a perfect choice for your situation. I distinctly remember it being billed as 'the bedroom sub'. If that's still too pricey, I can't help but think that the subs you should be looking at are the EP125 or EP175, as those are the ones designed for smaller rooms.

If neither of those float your boat, you could take a look at HSU Research's subs, specifically the STF-1,STF-2, or VTF-1. I would assume that either of those would be equally great choices for your small room.

Good luck!

Given your comments, go with the M22 + sub. It will give you all the bottom end of the M80s for music (and then a bit) and will put you one step closer to an HT. You do want a sub for the HT.