Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Epic Grandmaster and amplifier

Hey guys recently I've been looking at getting a home theater setup going and would like some input from you pro's. Just some info for starters. I live in a one bedroom apartment, my living room/all-purpose room is 23'L x 12'W x 8'H.
My usage would be 60-70% 2.1-channel music, 30-40% Blu-ray movies.

At first I was looking at just purchasing a set of M60's and work my way up over time to a 5.1 setup. Now I am looking at the Epic Grand Master, either 175 or 300.
The amps I have in mind are the Yamaha RX-V365 and the Denon AVR1610.

I have a limited budget at the moment but am open to any suggestions and recommendations anyone may have as far as amps and speakers go.
Also if anyone has experience with either of those amps how good are the headphone outputs as I have a pair of Sennheisers that I enjoy listening to on occasion.

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long winded post. I can post some links to specs on the amps if need be.

Welcome to the Axiom forum jumbo_tron!

The epic grandmaster 350 is a great choice for your room size. Any popular receiver manufacturer models 5.1/7.1 (Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Harmon Kardon, Sherwood Newcastle etc) will be able to power this system without any issues. Between the Yamaha RX-V365 and the Denon AVR1610 pick the one you feel has better features. Denon is very popular amongst the Axiom owners on this message board.

As to the headphone out, can you be a bit more specific on the model of your Sennheiser headphones you own because the impedance and sensitivity vary within the different models making some more easier to power than others.

Cheers!

Thanks for the reply I was leaning toward the Denon in fact, I'm a beginner to most of this stuff but the Denon's seem like pretty good amps for the price.

As for the headphones they are Sennheiser 580's, 300 ohm so I am in need of a little power for the headphones.

Denon makes a excellent product . I would suspect there will be not much of a difference in the headphone out between manufacturers. You might find that you need to turn the volume knob up considerbly to get the volume you want with your headphones. That could introduce hiss but I can't tell you for sure. I would try the headphones first with whatever receiver you buy and if you are not satisfied that the receiver can power them adequately then there are quite of few of us on here that can help you out with recommendations for a budget headphone amp .

What are you currently powering your headphones with and are you satisfied with it?

Cheers!

To add to what the Doc says, you can save some coin by going through the Factory Outlet. Many of us have done so, don't worry about ordering through the FO as most of us can't find any blemishes(v. minor if you CAN find one) and there is nothing wrong with them sonically. Five items will net you 5% off and the FO will give you another 10%!

The Epic Grandmaster350 indeed would be a nice system. Denon is very popular amongst Axiom owners, shop around for the best deal or maybe consider picking up a used/refurb if you are on a budget.

Hey, thanks I'll definately checkout the factory outlet and refurbs for the Denon. I am actually only powering the phones with my computer audio out at the moment which sucks, but I have been browsing around headwise.com at some of the diy headphone amps, (maybe put my electronics degree to some use).

Thanks alot you guys, I think the next step is to get my damn finger to push that checkout button.
When I get around to ordering and get everything set up I'll be sure to post some pics.

Anyone else's input would also be greatly appreciated!!!

Jumbo, welcome. Although you won't find any "pros" here except when Axiom audio expert Alan participates, we do try to share the knowledge which we've accumulated over the years. Yes, the EP350 sub would be a better choice than the EP175. As to the receivers that you mention, the 1610 would be my suggestion because of its set of features, such as Audyssey MultEQ.

I'll add that there's no good reason to limit yourself to listening to 2-channel material on a 2.1 setup, as you were first considering. Using processing such as DPLII which extracts the natural surround ambience from the front channels(where it had to be mixed since there was no place else to put it)and sends it to the surround speakers where it belongs results in a bit more natural listening experience.

Hi, John thanks for the info on the Dolby Pro Logic II. I have actually been reading up on this in the forum and elsewhere and it has pique'd my curiosity. If I do end up getting the EGM system, which I am looking at ordering soon, I will definately give that a shot and see how I like it!
Also I think I am set on the Denon. I really can't wait to get all of this together with my 61" Samsung DLP which is gorgeous BTW.

Very nice jumbo. Blu-ray movies will look spectacular on that t.v and they will sound great as well with the EGM 350.

Hey guys another question if anyone knows, otherwise I will call Denon. With the AVR-1610, can I just pass through my 1080p signal without the Denon doing any processing? That is what I would like to do.

Thanks

*NM, I think I found it on the specs on Denon's site 1080p output.
Oddly enough on Denon's site it shows it as being able to upscale analog input up to 1080p and no where else says it has this capability.

Well guys I'm beginning to piece together my system. I have the Denon on order as well as the two fronts (with stands), and the center channel. I can't wait to get it all and hook it up. I will be ordering the sub, two rears and stands within the next week from the factory outlet.
Thanks for all the input!!!

Congratulations jumbo!! now comes the dreaded wait....

'The Wait'.... they could make a movie out of this occurance. It would be a horror movie to be sure. Not all that gorey mind you... maybe a tad boring through the middle. But the ending, oh yes the ending is to DIE FOR!!!

They could use glue instead of blood...

And steel I-beam braces?

They could use alot more glue to fill in the boring parts in the movie.

Maybe to spruce up the middle we could stab an innocent Fedex delivery driver with a steel brace and have glue squirt out of him all over the place!!!

Well guys sorry it took so long to post but I've been busy at work lately. I have some decent pics to post up that I took with my cellphone as I don't have a camera at the moment. I'm not quite sure of the rules of the forum and posting photos, so if anyone could let me know how you folks do it around here that'd be great.

As for the speakers, I bought the VP150 and a pair of M22's for the moment. Let me tell you, once I got the Denon and PS3 to play nicely with Dolby, the sound is absolutely beautiful for movies. 2-channel and DPLII for music is excellent as well!

Now the only thing I am missing is the EP350 and QS8's. I think I will be getting the EP350 first as I am more of a music man and I appreciate a good low end to my tunes.

One thing I want to ask is will the EP350 be able to give me the midrange I crave as well as lower end bass? I am really on the fence about sending back the M22's and getting the M60's just for the added midrange they will provide me with their bigger drivers, so that I can just use the sub for the lower end? This is really the only thing that worries me at the moment.....that and I can't get my carpet spikes to thread in my stands but that's easily fixable with a tap and die!!!

Thanks
Anthony

Anthony, unless you meant to refer to mid-bass(about 40-80Hz)rather than "midrange"(about 200-3000Hz), no sub handles that. The midrange in the M22s is handled by two 5 1/4" drivers and in the M60 by one of the same.

Excuse me, yes John mid-bass is what I meant, my mistake. Thank you for correcting me. 40-90Hz is about the frequencies I am worried about losing. This has plagued me with my car audio system as well.
I am confident in the EP350 handling low enough frequencies to satisfy me, but can it do it while also handling up to say 90Hz+ where it seems to me the M22's just don't have the "ooomph" I'm looking for at lower volumes?

I wish Axiom had a nice Freq. response graph for the 350 like they do for all their other products.

Sorry for being long winded tonight
Thanks

Sure, with a 80-90Hz crossover set in the receiver the EP350 will handle those frequencies very well. Although no frequency response graph is available for the EP350(among others), note that the anechoic +/- 3dB spec is shown as 28-150Hz.

Ok, JohnK thank you very much. I was kind of hoping that was what I would hear as these M22's sounds marvelous and the cash saved over M60's is definately nice. Plus the M60's may be a bit overkill for my listening environment, a one-bedroom apartment. Don't need the neighbors knocking every day. Haha

Not to put down your expertise JohnK as it is very helpful but if there's any M22 and EP350 owners out there I would like to hear from you!!!

Thanks alot JohnK much appreciated!

Well, I've had the M22s for over seven years now and remain completely satisfied(the actual mid-range in particular is outstandingly good). I use them with an EP500, crossed at 80Hz, and get outstanding bass down to a bit below 20Hz, which is great for my classical music in general and pipe organ in particular. Incidentally, although the EP500 has an edge in the lowest bass, in the mid-bass area the EP350 should be essentially the same, so you might look at the EP500 graph there.

My apologies John I should have asked, I did not know you were an M22 owner. I think you may have made up my mind on keeping the M22's. You have provided me with a lot of useful info. I will not be ordering a sub for about a month and would love to stick with Axiom for my purchase as they have been great. They even changed my speaker color on short notice before shipping!!! I would love an EP500 but money is a bit of a factor for me as a first-time home theater builder. I think I may take a look at some other brands for the sub but may just end up back here in the end for the EP350.

Thanks a lot John.

I think it's bedtime for me. It's 2:30am here I better get to bed I have to work in the morning.

I‘m a little late to this party but I second what John says about the M22s. I had both M22s and M80s in a one bedroom apartment along with an EP500 subwoofer. I felt the M22s + sub gave me over 95% of what the M80s (Axioms flagship speaker) + sub did. I would have waited to buy the M80s until I moved if I had realized how good the M22s with a sub sound. Without a sub I do feel the M22s sound a little more thin than I like.

Another advantage of running the M22s + sub I found in the apartment was that if I wanted to listen late at night w/o my headphones I could just turn the sub down or off and play the M22s which did go through the walls like the towers did.

I’ve used my Sennheiser 600s with my factory refurbished Denon 2807 for 3 years and they sound fantastic. Though I would like to have a tube amp to play with.

Hey guys sorry I have not updated lately, like I said previously I have been swamped at work. I have a few pics taken with my cell phone which are pretty crappy but I don't have a camera at the moment. I am going to try and post one for now and maybe borrow the GF's camera and share some more later on. Thanks for the info Grunt! I have been listening to the new system every chance I get and your post really made me think of late night listening. I do enjoy late nights and the M22's with no sub are definately an advantage, (especially in a small apartment) and still sound beautiful. BTW how do you like those 600's? I hear nothing but excellent reviews on them. I love my 580's and have been drooling over the 800's but might pick up some 650's in the near future. Well onto the shitty photos!!!!!!!!




My other love

First off you might not want to let the GF read your post about your other “love.” They have this bad habit of always thinking they are one of them and your post seems to indicate…

Glad to hear the M22s are working out for you. They really are an incredible speaker. I’ve never heard the M2s so for now it’ my opinion that bang-for-the-buck they are Axiom’s best speaker.

I like your colour scheme silver and black so is all my stuff.

I love the 600s. I have never heard anything that seems more accurate in my life. I was shocked at how much bass impact they have…I didn’t know a headphone could do that. And they are comfortable too. I’ve worn them for over 16 hours in a day when gaming or doing movie marathons w/o even realizing they were there. On more than one occasion (stone cold sober) I got up and walk away wearing them only to have them pulled off my head when the cord ran out. From what I’ve read if you like the 580s you owe it to yourself to give the 600s a listen.

I demoed them against the 650s in a local shop and didn’t feel the 650s were worth the extra cost at that time. Never heard the 580s but from the reviews I read the 600s and 650s are supposed to be noticeably better. Didn’t know they had 800s out might have to find some to demo.

Not sure if I mentioned it but if you plan on being in the apartment for awhile you might want to consider getting a tactile transducer like a Buttkicker. It’s just cool now that I moved to a house but in the apartment it was awesome. Hooked it up to my seating and I could feel the bass shaking like crazy w/o a bit of it going through the walls. I wouldn’t use it in place of a subwoofer in a place I can turn the sub up but it sure put the feel back into action movies and games when I had to keep the sub off or turned way down. You might always be able to pick up something used.

Hey Grunt, do you use a headphone amp with the 600's?

Haha yeah for sure Grunt she won't be reading this. I know exactly what you mean. Maybe I'll change that.

Yeah my 580's are pretty comfy and I also find myself forgetting they are on my head. They are still good phones but I would definately like to upgrade. I have never heard either the 600's or 650's. Unfortunately I don't think there are any shops around my area that carry anything higher end to demo. Maybe I will have to check around a little more, there are a few I'd love to try out.

Out of curiosity, how would I go about hooking up a transducer to my system as I only have 1 sub preout on my receiver? Would I hook it up to an output on the subwoofer amp?

Hey Jumbo. I'm glad you are enjoying your setup so much. I mostly agree with grunt on the M22 and from my comparisons I know that you are not missing anything over the M60.

I do like to think that the M22 + sub is only 85 percent of the M80 since I spent the extra money though.

Haha Fred, I'm sure I would feel the same way had I plopped down the extra cash. You can have your extra 10% no prob.
And yes, I am enjoying my setup a lot except for one small issue. One of my tweeters arrived with two small dings in my tweeter dust cap. They are only cosmetic blemishes but they instructed me to try and pull them out with scotch tape and if they don't pull out they will send me a new driver no questions asked. Talk about service!!!!

Just wanted to note that I have read some other posts in the forum about some people feeling that Axioms are harsh in the high frequencies. I don't quite understand how anyone could possibly get that impression. In my experience I haven't heard a speaker so smooth and laid back.

I was wondering if I should try and setup Audyssey as I only have my 2 fronts and center channel for the moment? Is Audyssey mainly for 5 or 7 channel or should I just try it out and see how it sounds?

Anthony, good to hear how you're enjoying the great sounds through your Axioms.

The tweeter is just a metal dome and it's the mid-woofers which have a dust cap in the center. I assume that the metal in the tweeter wasn't actually the part damaged?

All speakers are affected by room acoustics, so sure, when you have some time, experiment with Audyssey, using the procedures suggested in the AVS Audyssey thread.

Yes, it is the metal dome on the tweeter that is damaged. The damage is more like gouges rather than the result of being pressed in. It looks as if it were hit it with a screwdriver upon installation or something. I don't know who I talked to at Axiom but they said it was a dustcap, which I didn't think it was either. Maybe we just had a misunderstanding or he thought I said mid-woofer possibly.
Either way, they stand by their guarantee!

I think I will try out Audyssey as soon as I get some time. I'm so sad I will be going to Edmonton for work for 3 weeks and I will be without my new speakers.
Carry-on possibly????? haha

*Edited*... wow, the actual titanium dome is damaged??? That is surprising!!! I would have to agree with you and think they must have thought you meant the dust cap on one of the cones. I didn't think the tweets had a dust cap, but perhaps I'm wrong. But if it's the actual titanium dome, then I don't think you'll be having much luck with scotch tape.

I'm very happy to hear that you are enjoying your Axiom speakers, but I'm afraid I can't agree with you on them being laid back. But perhaps our meanings differ. Usually, when refering to speakers, the term 'laid back' discribes speakers that roll off the top frequencies rather early, so that the bass and midbass dominate the sound presentation. And although there are many people out there that actually prefer this sound to the "crisp" sound of a speaker that plays all the way up, it isn't a truely balanced representation of the original recording. I would assume that what you mean when you say 'laid back' is that they aren't fatiguing to listen to. And I agree, I don't feel they are either. When you read about Axiom speakers (from other audio sites that is), you imagine playing them and shreeking your shoulders up once the volume increases too much because of the piercing treble ripping through our ear cannals and destroying our ear drums... but then you actually give them a listen, and that simply isn't the case.

If that's the case they surely, I agree. But I must warn you, labeling the Axioms as 'laid back' is actually a bit insulting around these parts, as Axiom strives for a true reproduction of the recorded material with no coloration at all. Lol, don't worry, I'm not mad at ya!

And lastly, I most certainly agree that if every company out there worked with customers even half as great as Axiom works with their customers, oh what a wonderful world this would be!!!

Yes, if the sub passes through the full input to it's output you can use that. (Some subs the out is a high-pass of it's crossover--not so with Axiom, though.) You can also use a Y cable on the sub out on the receiver for the same effect--depending which is closer to your seating position.

Dang strike one for me and I just joined like a week ago. You are right, wrong usage of laid-back on my part. I'm not down with all this lingo yet I guess. What I meant was the opposite of shrill sounding (whatever you would call that). For example, the Infinity's in my car are the exact opposite of the Axioms, I would absolutely describe them as shrill. I definately need an upgrade to get those speakers up to the level of my W7 in sealed box!
It's so weird after listening to music in my car for some time and then coming inside and firing up the Axiom's for some real sound. It's like night and day. Now I can't wait to pick up a sub to rattle this apartment building down!!!!!

Yes, the Axiom rep must have misunderstood you; he wouldn't have suggested the scotch tape procedure except on a mid-woofer dust cap. That type of damage on a tweeter dome isn't acceptable and I'm sure that Axiom will replace it.

Hey guys sorry to reopen this thread after nearly a month. I finally ordered and received my much awaited SVS PB12 today!!

This thing is a behemoth. I knew it was going to be big, but damn it just seems so much bigger now that its actually in the livingroom. I also received my new tweeter from Axiom in the mail today. I will be ordering my QS8 surrounds this weekend to complete the package.

Now I'm just waiting on some Canare cable and Cardas plugs to start building myself some new cables. Excellent service from both companies, SVS and Axiom. Here are a few pics for your viewing pleasure.

Cool... had time to listen to it yet?

Nice pics and good looking set up. The PB12 is quite large, even larger than the EP350/500 and only a few inches smaller than my PB13. You should be in for some great LFE.

Might I suggest lifting/tilting the back of the VP150 up a little, it looks to be aimed more upwards and not directly at the main seating area.

I did have time to listen to it today quite a bit and basically fiddled around with my Audyssey setup a bit. Audyssey set my sub as -9 dB. I ended up jacking this up to 0db with the gain on the sub set to ~5/8. The SVS sounds beautiful, but much different from the JL 12w7 in my car, which is understandable considering the fact that the SVS is receiving about 1000 watts less and in a larger room.

I watched the new X-Men Wolverine movie with the initial Audyssey settings. The FR, C, and FL sounded excellent but much was to be desired from the sub. I might watch it again tomorrow with my new settings for the sub and see how it is.

I actually flipped the VP150 over after taking the pictures, I was just experimenting. As of now it is firing to knee height at seating area. Should I lift the front a bit so it is firing toward ear height jakewash?

One other question Audyssey set my Front crossovers to 40Hz and my Center to 60Hz. Should I set both of these to 80?

Sure, Anthony; it's best to have the tweeters at ear level. When that's not possible, second best is to tilt the speaker so that the tweeters point toward the ears.

Since the Audyssey equalization will be provided as low as 40Hz and 60Hz to the respective speakers, no equalization will be lost by resetting them higher, to 80Hz, and the sound might be slightly cleaner.

As to what was "desired" from the sub, keep in mind that the idea is to have the sub level calibrated so that you can't hear it working as a separate entity, but instead have the impression that the speakers are putting out more bass. This is how my EP500 is set, but of course many want to hear the sub that they paid good money for, and so run it "hot".

Thanks John, I think I'll try to put some rubber pieces under the center to get it to that sweet spot.

As far as the sub is concerned I think I will just have to adjust settings a bit between music and movies. I do love having it set so the bass blends into the speakers when watching movies. I have never experienced a system like this for movies it just blows my mind and I don't even have my surrounds yet!

I will most definately be running it "hot", as you said, when listening to music. I guess a lot of this is just personal preference. What you say about many wanting to hear what they paid for is definately true in my case.

As it stands I still have a lot of experimenting to do as far as settings and speaker placement goes. I am loving every minute of it. I just wish days were longer!

Thanks for all your help. Also, thanks to Mel for the invite to check out the system while I was in Edmonton. I wish I could have made it but I was much too busy with work.

Anthony

Yeah it's really hard for car audio enthusiasts like you and I to get used to HT in the beginning, because there is such a difference between the two. First of all, car audio sub makers really have it dicked, how could their job be any easier? All they have to worry about is filling... what, maybe 100 cubic feet worth of space with bass? And most people will buy a minimum of 2 10's and push them with no less than 250 watts a piece... my God how are home theater subs supposed to compete with that??? To get the same effect I would have to fill my 11,000 cubic foot HT room with two hundred 10 inch drivers sucking up 50,000 watts worth of bass pounding power... that pretty much rules out having my buddies over to watch the game!

Yeah they are two separate worlds to be sure. But HT does have it's advantages. For instance I feel the M80's present a huge sound stage, at least ten fold as big as the MB Quarts I have in my car could ever achieve. So they both have their pro's and con's.

LOL, I feel ya on all your points there Micah. BTW how do you like your MB Quarts? I was looking into trying a set, but now I may slow it down a bit with the mobile audio.

To get to nearly the same feeling in your HT as you have in your car, you would need to run multiple subs as Micah eluded to. You could send the PB12 back and upgrade to the PB13 it has much more power and a larger driver to fill up the room with LFE, I also feel it sounds smoother than the PB12 did.

I put my MB Quarts 'Q' series in a few years ago and they're astonishing! The best car audio speakers I've ever ran.

MB Quart also does home audio... But you have to be very well off indeed to run MB Quart home audio!!!