Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Axiom's view on speaker break-in?

I read lots of opposing opinions on the amount of use a speaker needs to be considered 'broken in'. Opinions range from no break-in required at all (ie good right out of the box) to hundreds of hours required.

I'd like to hear from the Axiom folks who engineered these speakers. What's the Axiom position on the break-in period? After how much initial use should we expect to hear the permanent Axiom's sound?
Thanks,
Peter C

For the purpose of all of our testing we break in the components for 2 hours. This is lots of time to get consistent measurements from then forward from the components. I have heard of people going to hundreds of hours of break-in, which would seam to be a bit overkill.

Interesting!

Yes it is (interesting)! I've never seen an opinion from someone with credentials; most of the time they hem and haw. I will now pay keen attention around the 2 hour mark. (If I ever get another good speaker.)

I've reported that some of mine arrived broken in and others did not. Some required a few hours and others tens of hours. I've also reported that I was noticing significant "voicing" changes with temperature changes in my v2. I don't hear that in any v4.

Interestingly enough, I pointed out to Ian that when Soundstage measured the M5, they found the impedance curve to be quite different up top from what Axiom published. He surmised that could be the viscosity of the ferrofluid. They may have tested it when the speaker came in from the cold. That could explain why I was hearing differences in the v2. The v2 and v4 tweeter designs are of course different.

More interesting stuff on break-in. Andrew broke them in at the Mirage factory and the reviewer had to break them in again.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/mirage-om-7-loudspeaker-page-2

As at November 14, 2017, Klipsch never tested any of its speaker components or speaker systems prior to shipping. The proof is in the first sentence of the second paragraph.

https://www.klipsch.ca/blog/how-and-why-to-break-in-your-new-speakers

Mojo, I do not take that statement as fact … it’s written by marketing not engineering …
I’m sure the components went though some sort of testing before assembly and after. Break-in on the other hand …. I’m not as sure about …

Yeah, I know.

I'd tell you my latest experience with break-in but you'd all think I'm nuttier than an Oh Henry! bar.

Well then you have nothing to lose

. I'll sleep on it. I don't want to believe what I heard.

[/quote]Well then you have nothing to lose [/quote]

Agreed rrlev.

Mojo…..so? Spill the beans! Or nuts as it were….

Alright. I set up a test. I had not listened to my living room M5OW for 4 weeks. When I turned them on, they sounded like shite. Seven minutes later, they sounded absolutely wonderful.

Well that’s not that nuts really. That’s how my joints feel sometimes. Takes a few minutes to warm up before feeling good. Woofers could be the same way.

I’ve certainly experienced in my old living room, very tangibly, the sound improve significantly over a 45 minute period. I chalked it up to either the amp warming up or the room warming up over all, with the wood stove quickly warming the house in the winter. I’ve always wondered if humidity in room would make a difference that I could hear. I’m just speculating, haven’t done any real research or thinking on it.

Sometimes I feel like the room ambiance plays a big role tool. I recall a listening too some mellow jazz acoustic guitar, lights glowing and warm. And room very wood stove warm at night in winter, sounded lush and intimate. But that’s probably more about emotional ambiance than pure listening. But if it creates the effect that affects me, then I say that’s awesome!

You’re not crazy Mojo…

Like I've said in the past when I had v2, ambient temperature changes sure made a difference to how music sounded. In this case, ambient temperature was not a factor. It's all Andrew's problem now. As Chief Engineer of Axiom, he has to be able to explain these phenomena or he simply is not going to get into engineer's heaven.

Damn, I want a wood stove too. Love wood and love burning it.

Yeah i remember you saying that about ambient temperature and ferro fluids. It cant be that crazy to think that if the woofers sat for a while, 4 weeks in your case, that it would take some time for things to loosen up perhaps and become more pliable. That or your alchoholic libation kicked in...

Bottoms up!

Yeah, my M5s like it hot. Like basted lamb shanks.

My amps sound better after warmup too.

Amir actually had to remeasure a genelec setup and a few degrees farenheit changed measurements. He noted the woofer behavior changed and hit a few cycles lower and smoother.

Basted lamb shanks...lol. I don't follow Amir but cool he was able to show a difference. Magnitude response is one half of the behavior. Phase response may be another thing that matters in this break-in/warm-up quagmire.

Incidentally, the Mirage OM-5 developed by Andrew, states:

We strongly advise that you resist the temptation to play the OM series to their full capabilities or experiment with critical placement and listening until they have been properly broken in. This process should last approximately 50 to 100 hours of music playback.This can be done efficiently and effectively by putting your compact disc player onRepeat mode, while playing a CD with a wide dynamic range at normal listening levels.

The Thiele Small Parameters change during break in and over time. Measurable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDL4_TIRTu4&ab_channel=HexiBase

Was the beat up driver built to the same specs as the new driver? We will never know.

Setting audio aside, I can tell you from first-hand experience that even electromagnets "break in". My colleague and I spent a week trying to figure out why our levitator was losing stability over time. As we examined the real-time waveforms and worked "backwards" through the math for our system, we realized the coil resistance was rising. When we cooled the coil, long term stability returned. That incident is burned into me and has served me well a few times.

I've been a "not buying it" guy when it comes to speaker break-in. But my new M80s are sounding better all the time. And while I'm sure getting used to them is part of the equation, I'm no longer convinced that it's the whole story. So I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for when the truth is revealed.

If Peter (Hexibase) says something I believe it. I have watched all his vids and he is an encycleopedia of audio info. Freakishly smart. He is a pro and makes a living at it. He almost makes me want to learn advanced math so I can read my last textbook on the shelf…. Almost! Lol.

The drivers in the vid are identical as he mentioned. One is straight out of the box. The other 3 years of use.

I encourage you to learn more math. I know you can do it.

I'm a believer.

Agree with Hexibase comment Trevor. He seems super sharp. It definitely goes over my head sometimes, as does Hans Beekhuyyzen but I feel they are both credible and I always learn something. Sometimes it’s good to have something to aspire to in terms of understanding. Gotta start somewhere. I’ve learned a ton since buying these m60s in 2019. And it’s only the beginning of the audio enjoyment journey. I’m taking my time and relishing in it. I have this forum to thank a lot for that learning too for sure.

How things change. Remember when the wise ones on this site laughed at the suggestion that speaker break-in was a real phenomenon?

...and that nobody would want real wood veneer on their speakers?

Yup! Love da wood.

The question was never about whether or not prospects want real wood veneers. It was about whether they'd pay a premium for wood veneers. In the post below, Alan explains Axiom used real wood veneer but "...dropped that because of competitive pressures and lack of demand." As explained by Ian, wood veneer prices became comparable to vinyl and hence we're able to enjoy real wood veneer now.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/195052/speaker-construction

You need more hobbies if you are digging up 13 year old post! LOL

Frankly, is it the speaker that requires break in or is it your ears and brain that are the things that are actually "breaking in"? I tend to lean towards the logic of the fellow at "Audio Science Review" who states that when you have had a set of speakers for a considerable amount of time, you are used to listening to them, however, when you replace them, you are then doing more critical listening, hence, paying more attention to what you are hearing and after a little time your brain senses what you perceive as improved sound.

I have never bought into the idea of hundreds of hours of break-in time required for anything especially amplifiers that the so-called 'audiophiles" claim is necessary before things start to sound better. If one is spending thousands of dollars and it it doesn't sound its best right out of the box then something is wrong somewhere.

See above. The thiele small parameters change. Measurable.

Probably, a bit of both ... depending ...
In the next post I'll share thoughts about the ear-brain evaluation question


I’m for the most part with you …

Most solid state devices are not going to change much with break-in (Note: you can wear out some solid state parts like SSDs but for the most part I’d need some convincing on it changing a transistor's transfer function). I can understand needing some time to warm up as temperature changes effect components. I can also understand that in a poorly design circuit having components change because they are being stressed. Most solid state designs I've worked on were run for a few hours to reduce infant mortality, as most components have a higher fail rate early-on. By "burning-in" for a time you can bring that down to a reasonable rate. Maybe someone more in the know on this can come up with something here. I've just not seen it.

Mechanical systems wear, sometimes for the better and sometimes not. I can definitely see how a stiff speaker could loosen up or a material become more playable by wear. How much depends on the system and the materials.

On Tube stuff, I’ll take a pass, just don’t know enough in this area.

The ear-brain thing leads into ... a more fundamental question one ...
How do you know what you perceive is better, is really better.

Think I'm going to put this on it's own thread ...

As a sort of related comment…..

As some of you guys know I’ve moved homes recently. And I’m in a new , larger, and by default , not well furnished space yet. But it’s been like living with new or slightly different speakers. I know now and realize that my old space was WAY better or at least more emotionally satisfying then the current space given the system I have.

I guess my point is, yes we do get used to our daily driver systems and that becomes what I call “ my reference “ or baseline for any tweaks or changes.

Bottom line, we are all actually listening not just to our respective systems and speakers but we are actually listening to the room more than we’d like to admit!!

Im “breaking in” my new room.

The room has a big impact on sound. Different setups sound different in different places

Mojo has about a trillion words written on trying different speakers in different places. On how it’s not always the “best” (highest-end) speaker model that worked the best.

Anyway, with some work you might be able to bring some of what your missing back in your new room … or even take it to a new level.

BTW, This is the stuff we are all trying to figure out … the what, where, and how of the next big improvement to our systems … room, speaker placement, and even parameter adjustment in your prepro/AVR are often overlooked for more sexy things like speakers, amps, and other new electronics

True dat

Very true Rrlev. When I first got my m60 I was convinced I needed a fresh power plant. I was hell bent on it. You kind people here convinced me otherwise. I experimented with placement and then bass ports. Got a quality DAC and dam do I miss my old space and set up with in it.

So I have to say, the small improvements and nuance really do matter.

Yes I do.....

Yes you agree? OR Yes you do laugh? … just causing trouble, I is …

I’ve never really heard any “break-in’ changes in my speakers … but then again i don’t think I’ve ever done any critical listening or speaker comparisons till they had run a few hours.

This is because I can’t evaluate anything till they are set up … so end up doing a quick listen to make sure everything seems to be working, then setup 2 channel, listen a bit to get an impression, then setup for video listen a bit and somewhere way later try to critically listen.

So far my experiential view is they either don’t need it or only need a few hours. That said …

As an engineer, I can see how this might vary depending on the speaker and manufacturer.
So a much longer break-in might be necessary. As stated above the parts might need to wear a bit for smoother motion or materials may need vibrate a bit to get to their intended characteristics.

Given that “break-in” has no real down side and that it might actually help in some cases … my thinking is …

Just do it …

Come on Kodak, Everybody needs a new power plant!

When Axiom made it’s debut offer on the actives, the package deal with the dual ADA1500-5 was too good to pass up. I thought it was crazy to have that much power. I’m still not sure if it does anything over what a 1250 or 1000 would do in my room … but that setup sings better then anything I’ve ever owned.

Fear not! I’m now hell bent on a full upgrade! Speakers, source and power plant.

Wish I could get a preview of what’s going to show up in the b stock / refurb for Black Friday sale…..

I really think I have the space now ( by accident ) to run lfr actives in here. So when I hear you mention dual Ada-1500-5 I start salivating!!

Just curious, do you run 5 your channels vertically off the amp or horizontally?

And order of operations is : Source, Pre amp, dsp, power amp?

One amp per speaker.
Currently AV8805 prepro -> L/R DSP -> L/R ADA1500 -> L/R Active

Cool. Multi channel mono block sort of. It’s such an interesting system. Very cool. I’ve been reading threads about active system. Really interesting.

I’m on the fence with break in for equipment. I think there is definitely some level of break in but it’s probably not as dramatic as some might think. I think it’s easier to understand with something mechanical like woofer surrounds and moving parts but I can’t say I know enough about electronics to make an opinion. But I do know electronics wear out so it does show type of lifecycle…

Edit: right! Left and right dsp for actives into l r amps. Makes sense. I was picturing a single dsp like with the passives.

Big advantage to having a separate amp per active speaker.

You can put the amp on the DSP right next to each speaker.
So, you have 5 short speaker cables from amp to speaker,
5 very short XLR cables from DSP to the amp, and
a single Single XLR cable running back to the prepro.

Nice. So shortest signal path possible, very desirable. Longest run then is from DSP to pre then. Sweet. With XLR all around and to your pre is it all “ balanced “?

I’ve heard of xlr being used but not actually “ balanced”.

I’m assuming that with the level of LFR sophistication that it’s all fully balanced.

I stil don’t totally understand “ balanced “ but liken it to a noise cancelling of any hum by using inverted signals? ( I’m reaching here….)

That’s a nice symmetrical way to set it up. Each speaker with its own stand alone power and processing. I really like visual symmetry and all things symmetric.

XLR is a connector which is intended to be used for low level balance audio. It has three pins (+, -, and ground). Yes, it's good for noise rejection.



A bit more on that if your interested

... good for noise rejection because the input is differential ... the amplitude of the signal is the voltage difference between the lines (+) and (-). So when stray noise is picked up it should effect both the (+) and (-) lines by the same amount, the voltage between them is not effected and the injected noise is thus rejected.

A non-balanced signal is the voltage difference between the (+) line and ground. When stray noise gets picked up it will effect only the + line (for the most part). The noise will be added into your signal.

In addition a balance connection helps with ground loops ... This is when the ground at the device a one end is slightly different than the ground at the device at the other end. Since in a balanced signal only the difference between (+) and (-) matter ... the two grounds moving relative is not an issue. But in a non-balance situation the (+) signal is sent relative to one ground but the input is relative to another. If the grounds are moving relative to each other noise is being injecting. To think of it another way if you have no signal out (+=0) but the other ground is moving then the signal input will be that grounds movement.

Thankyou. As an FYI, ( maybe it’s already common knowledge to most but….) I have read that not all XLR connections are fully balanced / differential. I can imagine why this would be but apparently it’s a thing. ( maybe I’m wrong?) But there are a number of adapters out there too to convert XLR to single ended.

You can send a single-ended output to an XLR diff input by just tying the minus (-) pin to ground ... now the difference between (+) and (-) is just the (+) signal relative to ground. I've never read the XLR spec ... so I'm not really sure about the various configurations ...

In any rate, you might still get some rejection this way if the (-) pin at the input is not also tied to ground ... I've never tried it or tested it in that configuration.

I looked through this thread and this discussion has happened umpteen times over the past 20 years i've been on these forums.

DO NOT ACCEPT EVERYTHING YOU READ ONLINE /YOUTUBE AS FACT!

Sorry about the caps BUT, proof of concepts are provided in published science and engineering journals. You have to go to that source to find out what is what. Every speaker company (as rrlev inferred) is going to market stuff to sell.
If i recall, Ian mentioned (back during my first factory tour) that Axiom tested every speaker with a sweep to ensure it's response was consistent and flawless (to use the term loosely). The mere testing phase would let you know if the speaker response was changing or had changed and as such, let them know there might be a quality issue. These drivers beat at thousands of reps per second! Even a minute of sound playback is punishing.

RE: this video linked above, there is a MAJOR experimental error with this fellow's trials
He used TWO different drivers; one old, one new. Why not use the same driver out of the box, beat the crap out of it then test it again? And again years later?
Two same model drivers may have slightly different measurements that still fall within the design specs averages.
Add to that idea, do these small differences make a difference SIGNIFICANTLY (on a measured spectrum) and AUDIBLY in A/B testing?
Add to that, if drivers break in, then they also break down. How does a driver break in only to a certain point and then stop magically after 10 hours? 100 hours? 200 hours? The very point of making a driver with durable materials is so that it DOESN'T change it's sound over time.

Good lord people, think a bit deeper.

Not that it really matter what any of us say.... Like the Barenaked Ladies sing "It's all been done before!"

https://open.spotify.com/track/1VBRdl1sT4DGckQaTzKEB9?si=70fd62a30dec4dd3