Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Pining for a Klipsch RC62 again...

Hello guys. Long time no chat. As most of you know I joined the Axiom family about 9 months ago. I had originally bought a complete Klipsch Refference setup but all the speakers that I bought had been sold to me as new, but were actually returned (and in one case, had a blown tweeter)and resealed. In frustration I returned all of them and looked for an alternative. I bought the Axioms and am VERY happy with them. The only issue I have is that the front sound field isn't as engulfing as the Klipsch RC62 that I had. I'm guessing the soundfield was larger from the Klipsch due to the horn speaker that they use.

I have adjusted and readjusted the settings for the center, but have failed to get it anywhere near.
The Axiom has a very clean, clear, and airy sound to it and is not fatiguing to my ears. The Klipsch is a very bright and crisp sound that draws you into the action but can get tiring to the ears after awhile.

The Klipsch had me clutching the couch and made me feel like I was IN the movie. And as enjoyable as the Axiom center is to listen to, it still feels like I'm only WATCHING a movie.

Im tempted to sell my VP150and buy either the RC62 or 64. Seeing as the center does most of the work for film I'm thinking I should do that. I'll be keeping the rest of my Axioms though.


Any ideas from you guys to increase and expand the sound field other than cranking up the volume ?

How much power do you have? The Klipsch speakers are likely more efficient than the Axioms. Your amp may be clipping at levels that played cleanly with the Klipsch speakers.

I would worry that it would be difficult to blend the Klipsch center with your mains.

Experimented with speaker positioning much? Can make a huge difference.

If you have room to run a vertical center the M22 or another M60 does wonders for the center channel experience.

Thanks guys.
No room for a vertical center. I did try a few different things this morning though.
First, I pulled the center forward about a foot so that it was even with the side towers.
Next I put a book underneath it to elevate the front a bit as it does sit below the screen.
And lastly I took the volume up to -20.

I popped in Black Hawk Down, Master and Commander, and the asteroid chase scene from The Clone Wars.

There definately was a difference in the sound field. Could it be because the VP150 is a 6ohm speaker as opposed to the 'regular' 8ohm rated speakers and needs to be fed more juice?

I know when I was running the Klipsch setup my volume knob didnt need to go louder than -32. But when I had my Energys, and now my Axioms, I really need to crank it up to between -25/-20.

Are you only playing with the 'master volume' control? Have you gone in and adjusted the different speakers individually through your reciever? What size room do you have? In my write-up concerning my Emotiva XPA-3 I specifically mentioned how much better the VP150 sounded once I fed it with a lot of juice. Of coarse I have over 11,000 cubic feet to fill, so I needed it. I don't know how much room you have, but if it's a large area, then pushing it with an external amp like I did might be the solution.

Micah, yes I went in and adjusted the speakers individually. I have a small room compared to yours. I believe its 16'x15.
I may need play around with my sub a little bit more. But I think if i go any higher with that the wife will kill me. Neighbors already hinting that its too loud.....

Do you have your center set to 'large' or 'small' ? Both my 60s and 150 are set to small with a 80hz cross over.

I have my 80's set to large and the 150 set to small. I realize that many recommend setting your mains to small as well, but I wouldn't dream of restricting the M80's from doing what they do best, play EVERYTHING!!! IMO they play the midbass much better than a sub can. And when I say midbass I'm talking 35 - 80 hz. That's why I refuse to set my mains to small, therefore restricting everything below 80 hz on them.

Thanks. I'll try setting those to large then once my daughter goes to bed. Hopefully that extra bass will help fill the front stage a bit better. The dual 8" subs on my old RF82s had to be set to small because it was WAY too much bass out the front.

With Dave Matthews at Radio City, the VP150 shines !!!

35-80hz is really not considered midbass, but that is fine. Setting a speaker to small does not "cut off" at that frequency, there is a gradual slope or hand off to the sub. My 80's are set to small with a 60hz crossover, allowing the sub to do what it does best, move more air with the larger driver.

Ghost, where are the VP150 tweeters in relationship to your ears? Have you tried flipping the VP150 over to make use of the angled side, which might aim it upward to your ears? In reality, the tweeters of your left/center/main should be as close to ear level, when seated, as possible. Have you calibrated all the speakers to the same SPL, normally 75dB's?

Ghost, the center channel is primarily for dialog (voices) during movies, not explosions. Setting your mains to large, which they should not be, will not help what I think your describing as "fullness".

I tried posting pics in the gallery but ill have to do it from my PC upstairs later. My 150 sits about 18" off the ground under my screen. The 60s are at ear level. I did the Yamaha auto calibration and it was almost spot on to my own tweaking. In regards to the dB level they're sitting at I have no idea. Should I lower the crossover to 60 and see how that sounds ?

Joel, even if you don't have room for the center speaker to be permanently positioned vertically, as an experiment you could set the VP150 up on end vertically(even if it partially blocked the screen)to see if that would improve the effect. This would indicate if wider horizontal dispersion was really what was needed in your case.

Johnk has a very good suggestion, but from the sentance above, it sounds like you want a wider soundstage, not improved dialog. If John's suggestion does not help, try playing with the toe in and positioning of your mains.

Explain why 'they should not be'. While I don't know if setting them to large will bring the 'fullness' he feels is lacking, wouldn't setting your mains to either large or small be a personal preference thing, and not a 'right or wrong' thing? While I understand the motive behind setting a main speaker to small perfectly well (send all the bass information to the subwoofer), I still believe there is room for difference of opinion in the matter.

In one of the subwoofer threads (probably my own) I talked about my preference towards smaller subwoofer speakers, like 8 - 10 inchers because of the 'tight, fast bass' they produced. The 13, 15 and 18 inch subs hit much lower, but they were much slower, not nearly as detailed, and all around just more vague. It is for this very reason that I leave my M80's set to large. This way I get all the frequencies down to 35 or so hz played through the tight, fast 6 1/2 inch speakers instead of the slower 12 inchers of the EP800. Not that the EP800 is sloppy by any stretch of the imagination... its just that compared to the M80's it is.

So anyway that's my own preference. I feel the M80's handle 35 - 80 hz better than the EP800 does, and I don't feel leaving them set to large takes anything away from the EP800's performance. I wouldn't go as far as to say mains 'should' be set to large, I just don't think it's a black and white situation. Try both set-ups and go with your favorite.

Micah, bigger bass drivers aren't inherently "slower" and smaller ones aren't inherently "tighter". It's a question of proper design with all factors, primarily magnet size, being adequate to control the larger cone as well or better than a smaller one.

Welcome back Joel. Another experiment you can try is to sit in the sweet spot and use a “phantom center” by telling the receiver you have no center. Though not exact it will simulate having another M60 as a center. If the phantom center sounds good then for sure it’s the VP150 giving you the issues as you said it didn’t happen with the Klipsch.

I found that the VP150 couldn’t keep up with the quality of sound coming from my mains (M80s). Compared to the M80s the VP150 just sounded less dynamic and a little hollow. At first I switched to using a phantom center which worked great for just me in the sweet spot but not for other seats. I tried all the suggestions and tweaks except adding a second VP150 (one above and one below) and still found the SQ came up short compared to the M80s as one should expect. I followed Jakewash’s solution of using either a M22 or now an M80 center both of which work exceptionally well. Not sure if they would fit but fredk is, I believe, using dual M2 speakers above and below his screen with his M80 mains to good effect. If you could manage to fit one you might consider an M2 center.

Micah - I agree with you that my M80s also sound better in the 35Hz-80Hz range than the EP500 and I listen to lots of psytrance and other music with rapid tight bass. In my apartment the room was 19x19x8 and found that having multiple bass sources really helped even out the bass so I ran them large or small with a low crossover. Plus I only sat 6’ from them so I could feel the lower frequencies coming at me from them which was great for onscreen action.

Since I got my Onkyo 3007 and Audyssey seems to be working properly (didn’t seem to on my Denon) I have stayed with what the auto setup found, L/R M80s set to small and 40Hz center M80 set to small and 50Hz. So my M80s are still producing most of the 35Hz-80Hz range and everything sounds fantastic. From what I’ve read Audyssey applies better EQ to the LFE channel than any of the others. So for someone who’s mains are near walls they might benefit more from a higher crossover to get the better filter but for someone like me with room to get my M80s away from the walls I can’t even imagine using an 80Hz crossover. But like you say it’s all about personal taste and I look at the various configuration recommendations out there as great for people who don’t want to tweak but only a starting point for those who have the time and desire to get the most out of their systems.

Cheers,
Dean

You seem to be missing my point entirely. I don't feel I have the right to say one sounds any better than the other any more than you do. The right I do have however is to say that I myself prefer it, and so might he. Experiment, find what you like, and if you don't like them set to large then to hell with what I say, set them to small. And by the same token, if you do like them set to large, you don't have to feel as if you're doing something wrong, because (sonic) beauty is all in the ears of the beholder.

But certainly you are right in what you say John, it is all in the design, very good point. The well crafted EP800's 12 inch woofer for instance I feel does play much tighter than a normal 6 1/2 inch speaker can. However the 6 1/2 inch drivers they have in the M80's are incredible over achievers in my opinion. Never have I heard such bass coming from such a small driver. It's a testiment to what a fine speaker the M80 is! And I get such a kick out of how well it handles every frequency it is capable of playing, I just can't set the damn thing to small. For me, it would be like disconnecting two of the four cyclinders on my motorcycle and running it as a twin!


LOL

Thanks again for everyones input. I've spent the better part of a few hours playing around and got great results. I do feel like an idiot as I should have known better, and should have done this months ago.

I started by setting the M60s and VP150 to small and setting my crossover to 60hz. As you can see in the pictures the main 3 speakers are in a bit of an alcove. I pulled my towers forward so that they were at the opening of the alcove,and toed them in a bit to help disperse the sound into the room instead of straight out.
Then I increased the output to the QS8s.

All of these things seemed to have helped open up the sound field immensely. The volume level is down to between -32/-26 now and the sound field does seem much much wider and full. All without the ear fatigue that I had experienced with the Klipsch.
I'm going to play around a little bit more, but as it stands, I feel like my speakers just got 10x better. As much as I liked the convenience of the Yamaha speaker set up, it seemed to really limit what the settings should have been set to.
Thanks again for everybodies help and input.

Nice setup, thanks for the pics. Glad to hear you’re working things out. Keep us posted on anything else that helps out as you never know when someone else might be in a similar situation and be helped by your experience.

Looks to me like you would have room for an M22 if you wanted to try one

Since you appear to have about 30" of room under the screen you also can try the vertical VP150 on the floor without blocking any of the screen.

the large & small question....

I have tried it on my M60 and personally I prefer the "Large" setting for my L/R, it brings out more detail bass than if I set it low, it become a bit muffle....so I just leave it at large (and set the x-over on my SR6003 as "both" for LFE)

Heya Ghost,

I noticed your Tachi, Katana and Wakizashi in your picture. Are they just a decorative piece or do you train with them. I used to do some Iaido years ago as compliment to Karate and Kobujutsu.

Such a precise art. Success being measured in fractions of millimeters instead of speed. Fluidity vs. strength. Really made you appreciate the concept of mastering "Mind and Body". Mind you , I was certainly no master. I just learned to appreciate the concept.

you may have your sub placed incorrectly in the room, the 60's should be set to small, and around a 60-80hz crossover.

Perhaps the swords are cutting into the higher freq's?

Not if he prefers it that way.

They are strictly decorative. I do plan on buying a 'real' katana in the future. I keep my Bokken upsairs in my room (to deal with intruders and a paintball gun for backup.)I had done a bit of sword training in my younger years with my first instructor in Wado Ryu. When we moved to the mainland I joined a Kyokushin dojo. Had to quit that when I went into the army. When I got out I joined an MMA dojo and got my brown belt in Pankration and supplemented that with Muay Thai. Due to having a child now and a recovering back injury, I am on the mend and have taken up Escrima stick fighting in the meantime. When I go back to Pankration it should only take me another year or so to get my black belt and then I'll start instructing.

I think I may try that vertical 150 approach later this afternoon.
I also have 4 little Yammy speakers, and may hook up two of them for the 'height' speakers in the front. I have extra wre kicking around and I know my receiver supports that too.

Once again, thanks to the Axiom Community. You guys rock.

I'm so glad you could get some satisfaction. Reinforces - again - the importance of the interaction between the speakers and the room.

Wow, that's a very expansive martial arts career. I will admit to having to Google "Pankration" and was then embarrassed when I discovered it's one of the oldest fighting techniques known.

Enjoy experimenting with the speakers. That is certainly part of the fun.

I remembered Pankration from Ken Shamrock back when UFC first started. Granted I love the Martial arts but now being in my late 30s my body sure feels it. Arthritis in my hands from conditioning knuckles by punching hard wood floors and breaking boards. I have indents in my shins from blocking kicks without pads(part of the Kyokushin training) and feel it when the weather changes. Injuries are plenty with MMA and most occur during Practice than when you're actually competeing. I would really enjoy taking up Aikido and learning some Kung Fu for the trapping techniques they use. Much easier on the body and my ever stiff back

I want to watch all my movies again because the sound downstairs has changed so dramatically.