Re: Given the choice btn side-by-side150's or M80s
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569 |
1 - Horizontal centers were developed primarily for 'ergonomics' and provide good horizontal sound dispersion (but not necessarily good vertical dispersion)
2 - Three identical LCR speakers oriented similarly will make for the best soundstage if you can make the ergonomics work (i.e. good horizontal and vertical dispersion characteristics)
So if I am correct on this I will try to steer my in-laws towards 3 identical LCR's like M60's or 80's. I think we can build that into a false wall with an acoustically transparent screen.
I found these articles very informative and useful in helping make my center (and other) speaker decisions. Surround-Sound Speaker Placement: Problems and Solutions The Center Channel: Unique and Difficult Music in the Round #4
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1
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Re: Given the choice btn side-by-side150's or M80s
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,181 Likes: 1
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,181 Likes: 1 |
Cool, thanks for the links Dean.
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Re: Given the choice btn side-by-side150's or M80s
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569 |
I just reread this thread and noted that Dean finds the M22 and M80 almost identical as center channels. Interesting. It could be a good way to save a few dollars instead of all M60's or 80's across the front. Of course if we go this way my next step will be asking for acoustically transparent screen recommendations! Not there yet
IMO unless you have a very large room, listen to lots of 2ch stereo or just won’t buy a subwoofer then bookshelves and subwoofer(s) is the way to go. If you haven’t read the first article I posted above for a better overall explanation than I can give. As for an AT screen I started out thinking that way but reading posts here steered me away from one. An AT screen will to some degree (maybe not significant for most) limit picture quality and sound quality because of the physical nature of the screen itself. Additionally using an AT screen usually necessitates placing the front speakers in or close to the wall which will also effect their performance. OTOH the nice clean look of an AT screen with the speakers behind it has a quality of it’s own. And I imagine it doesn’t suck to have the sound actually coming right out of the screen like a movie theater. Just to play devil's advocate, is there any reason why a horizontal center could be considered better than 3 identical vertical LCR's?
Except for placement restrictions I cant think of one, but I try to stay open minded.
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1
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Re: Given the choice btn side-by-side150's or M80s
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786 |
I would love to arrange for a geeks day at Axiom so we could play with all these combinations as a group.
Fred
------- Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
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Re: Given the choice btn side-by-side150's or M80s
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420 |
That would be fun
Jason M80 v2 VP160 v3 QS8 v2 PB13 Ultra Denon 3808 Samsung 85" Q70
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Re: Given the choice btn side-by-side150's or M80s
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 71
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 71 |
try 6 m80's as lcr'r behind an at screen, kicks butt!
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Re: Given the choice btn side-by-side150's or M80s
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,789
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,789 |
I would imagine M22's would sound very similar to M80's at center since center channels don't usually carry much bass. All this talk about how placing speakers above the screen screws up the sound stage really has me wondering how mine sounds so good? I wonder if it's because most people who have theirs above the screen have them right above the screen and not close enough to the ceiling to use it's reflections to their advantage? Mine is bolted right to the ceiling and pointed at my head, and honestly with both music and movies I can't tell that the sounds are coming from up there, they seem to come directLy out of the mouths of who ever is onscreen! And I have tried exhaustively to close my eyes and hear that its coming from my ceiling ever since reading about the problems having your center channel speaker above your screen, and I just can't hear it coming from up there. My only explanation is that where its positioned is reflecting perfectly off of my ceiling to hide its location sonically. But then again maybe I just don't know what to listen for? I wish I lived closer to some of you fanatics so that I could come listen to your set-ups (expecially when you're doing your A/B experiments!) And you could come listen to mine & pick apart my placement. Although it may be painfull to hear critisism of my system, if it ultimately led to a better sounding set-up (which is hard to imagine åt this point), then it'd be well worth it! Oh, count me in for geek day at Axiom!!!
My Stuff :
M80's QS8's VP150 EP800 Denon 4802 Emotiva XPA-3 Samsung BD-P3600 Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD
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Re: Given the choice btn side-by-side150's or M80s
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569 |
I’ve found that having the center speaker up high creates a wall of sound effect that is actually quite pleasant for movies and even some music. Suddenly switching to the level tweeters especially below the screen can sound thin or anemic by comparison. To me the tradeoff is that the height matched (at least close) tweeters of a vertical array can have much better imaging and tonal balance. I say can because proximity to walls, TV screens and anything effecting first reflections can blow the improved imaging all to hell leaving the high mounted center actually sounding better by comparison.
Also as mentioned on at least one of the articles above many sound engineers spread some of the center channel information out to the mains to create a more seamless soundstage and take advantage of the usually better quality of the main speakers.
Part of my test I didn’t mention was popping in the Blu-ray HD audio sampler that came with my Oppo. I don’t care for most of the music but it sounds awesome. I thought this would be the most definitive example of quality audio I could use. I started listening switching back and forth between speakers and couldn’t hear a damn difference, even when I moved off center. So I stuck my ear up to the M80 and all there was barely enough coming out to keep the stereo image from collapsing to the nearest main. I have to say it is a beautifully mastered DVD as it made the front soundstage sound perfect with all three centers.
This brings up another point I should reemphasize. The example I give of sonic differences are things I have found that really highlight them. When testing in my apartment I found that probably 7 out of 10 movies sounded nearly identical with any center speaker which I figured was likely explained by the sound engineer blending the center channel information out into the mains. If you physically disconnect the center while leaving on in the receiver you can hear this better. Learned that trick from John when testing out what PLIIx does with surround sound.
The biggest issue for me using a different center for music is mostly imaging. The tonal differences are usually highlighted when using PLIIx to create the center channel. However, this can be mitigated somewhat by adjusting the “wide” parameter, in effect being your own sound engineer.
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1
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