Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners EP500 - No / Barely any LFEs

History:

Got my Axiom in/ons & Qss, installed, set up ran Audyssey using my JBL 10" Sub. Everything sounds incredible. So ordered a W100, and EP500, installed ran Audyssey. The Fronts Centers amd Surrounds sound incredible, not much from the EP500. Set it up as instructed Vol @ 10 o'clock, Phase 0, Crossover @ 120, Sub sonic off.

Audyssey (with EP500) set fronts to Full, and the rest to THX (80 crossover, forgot Sub setting)Not great sounding. Audyssey set the Sub at +12db also.

Reset the crossovers to Fronts 90, Center 80, Surrounds 100, Sub to 120. I set the sub db to 8.5

Watched 2012 last night nada, totally un-impressed. Wasn't watching it real loud, but didn't have to with the JBL 10".

What other setting could it be? I was expecting liver damage from the EP500!

Thanks

Time to back things out of the equation. The first place to start is backing EVERYTHING out. If you've got an iPod or MP3 player, or portable CD player, hook that directly to the input on the sub. Make sure you have the sub turned down. Then press play, turn up the volume on the sub until you can hear something. I think the new EP500 amps need to be at about halfway (could be wrong, be careful). If you never hear anything or if it's very, very soft, double check the RCA->1/4" adapter plug. At this point, there could be a problem with the sub amp.

If it works fine with the MP3 player, try setting things up in the receiver manually, without Audyssey.

Thanks, I'm getting something out of the sub. I went up and listened & heard the sub, it's outputting, I could hear bass during the movie from my seat.... but and the LFE's, tiny body tingle. but I would think the 2012 earthquake scenes, just might make you know something was going on. I'll try some music or a movie with my droid

Thanks Again

Jeff, what caught my attention was that the sub had been set to +12 by the auto-calibration. This indicates that there wasn't enough room to set it louder with that setting(10:00)on the sub volume control. Set it substantially higher so as to end up with a receiver sub trim closer to 0.

Hi wordgasm,

I would forget about the auto setup for now. Try this...

1)Go into your receiver settings and set the subwoofer pre-out to +2.
2)Set speakers to small with 80 hz crossover. Subwoofer set to "yes" or "on"
3) Play some music
4) Adjust the control on the subwoofer starting at our initial point at 10 o`clock and adjust upward to the point where you get satisfactory bass.
5) If you get the bass you are looking for, we then take another step on how to fine tune your subwoofer.

Buy a ratshack spl meter and level match properly. Also, take the time to do the sub crawl to make sure its not room related.

I agree with JohnK. Having owned 2 EP500s, I would turn the gain to 2 o'clock and recalibrate.

Bingo. Turn the sub volume up about 1/4 of the dial and try Audyssey again.

Thanks All, all responses make sense .... I'll start with the easy one.... recalibrate at a higher volume.

Any updates on your issue here wordgasm?

Nope just haven't got to it yet. I got new QS8s last night so I will probably just wait till Saturday, fish the rear walls and move my QS4s to the rears, hang the QS8s and then setup everything and re-calibrate and tackle the sub issue.

Thanks for asking

Well today I got off me butt.

Installed the QS8s, moved the QS4s to the rears and fished the walls. I also I also moved the sub feed from the front wall to the rear wall and re-fished it and relocated the sub.

Then I ran Audyssey. 3 times. First time with SW vol set at 2 oclock. Audyssey set it at -12db, then at 12:00 oclock, set at -6.5 db, then at 10 oclock, set at -2.0 db. I watched a couple scenes and reset the sub at +2.0db

I have my LFE's back! (I'm going to have to weather strip the closet door it that room to keep it from rattling)

It's probably sounding perfect, I think I'm just not hearing the boominess I was use to with the other sub.

Audessey gave me the following settings, any thoughts and if so, the reasoning behind it.

(I have to run Audyssey with a cable extension, so ABOUT 40', the Audyssey guy says this is a no-no, "rolls off the highs", but it will have to do for right now.

SW: Yes
Fronts: 100
Centers: 80 (W150 above, W100 below)
Surrounds: 150 (is this too high?)
Rear Surrounds 120
Rear S Chls: 2
LPF to LPE: 120

If I want to adjust the sub some more, should I adjust it thru the receiver or with the sub volume?

Thanks

Audyssey/auto calibration setup crossed your surrounds to high. What are the trim levels set for your speakers?

You should try disabling audyssey and crossing your mains at 80hz, centre channels to 80hz, QS8's to 80hz or 90hz and your QS4's to 90hz or 100hz. Adjust the sub (using the subwoofers volume control in accordance to the +2 setting on your receiver) to your liking and double check your speakers trim levels, speakers set to small etc and play some material through these settings and hear if there is a difference to your liking. Just remember to disable audyssey before doing all this.

Sorry your dealing with a newb. What is the trim level.

On my Onkyo, besides the hertz, the speakers are set at:

Right / Left

Fronts: -4.5/-4.5
Center(s): -7
Surrounds: -8.0/-6.0
Surrounds Rear: -2.5/-1.0

Speaker Setting: Normal/6 ohm (only choises are 6 & 4 ohm)

Thanks

Thats the info I was looking for. You seem to be getting odd measurements with your QS8's (surrounds). The trim for the surrounds seem to be very low in comparison to the side surrounds same for the center channel to your mains. Are you having any trouble hearing dialogue on programs? These numbers that have been generated I would be suspect of.

You should invest in a radio shack SPL meter to double check.

No problem with dialog.... I thought maybe the reason for the low setting on that was having 2 centers. And it is a small room 11'w x 10.5'l.

The only other infomation I can add is that due to the available cable I have to run Audyssey, I'm running all 6 positions, but I can only move the mic about 2'. It reaches the main seating position (mine) and the one next to it... and thats all

It sounds like your listening position is very close to the rears, and much further away from the surrounds. I would do what the good Dr. recommended above. I gave up on Audyssey a long time ago because I was left with what I felt was a hollow sound. I now run my system with no Audyssey, no EQ, and all speakers within +/- 1 db of each other. It's a much fuller sound, and I really like it. The minus is, especially with the Axioms, that pooly recorded music (much of the CDs from the 80s) sounds like garbage. Well recorded music however is nirvana!

I'm glad you got the EP500 set better. It's truly a great sub!

You should invest in a radio shack SPL meter to double check.

Here's the audio newbness coming out again.

Years ago, I got a RS SPL Meter to setup an old system, but never actually ended up using it. I moved.

Can anyone point me in the direction of some instructions for doing a setup with the SPL Meter

I think I've seen reference to +75db and I assume you do this using the pink noise for each speaker in my onkyo's setup menu?

Same DB for all including the SW?

I basically dealing with 1/2 seating positions. Is the main purpose Audyssey to do the calculations fopr multiple seating positions? Or is it doing "other things" also. Just curious!

Many Thanks

Where do you have your receiver placed that you can only reach two seating positions? The advantage of Audyssey is that it can optimize for multiple seating positions. I found it very good for setting trim levels and speaker distances.

With the radio shack meter, you set it on C weighting and play test tones through your speakers. The receiver should have a pink noise (a wide band of frequencies) generator that sends the same signal through alternating speakers on a set pattern so that you can compare the sound level of each.

A tripod is handy for holding the meter steady.

The receiver is 40' across the house in a rack. The Audyssey Guy (AVS) says you shouldn't use extension cables ("rolls offf the highs"), But to reach the main seating position I have to use the mic cord and a 25' extension cable. The room is small and 95% of the time there are only 1 or 2 listeners sitting next to each other. THe 3rd position is a little off center for the display, but totally viewable. But not used that much.

Ahhhh! Don't use Audyssey. You are getting to much voltage drop in that wire. Your measurements will be off. Get a Radio Shack meter to calibrate.

Don't ever loose your remote.

OK, I didn't read carefully. Steve is probably right.

The week I got all my first Axioms, my RF remote went south, had to order another and have it overnited so I could set up and play with the speakers. Last Xmas eve, I dropped a RF remote into a big glass of pepsi. HAd to have another Harmony RF remote overnited for sat delivery after xmas day. I'm down about $1k in rf remotes in the last 7 months. Something I didn't fully think out when I decided to build the rack. Knew I'd need an RF, but didn't think about when one isn't working. No TV, no Music, No Movies, No nothing!

One more question, I searched and read about 5 articles about SPL setup, some say point in direction of sound at 45 degrees toward ceiling (at each speaker? or just toward the display?), and some say point toward ceiling. Thoughts?

Found my SPL meter off for a battery and a tripod.

If you haven’t already I wouldn’t bother with a tripod for the Radio Shack meter it’s just not that sensitive. OTOH, a stand can be useful for the Audyssey mic but nothing fancy is needed. I just made a “T-Ball” style stand out of spare wood I had lying around.

I would aim the meter at the ceiling just make sure if you are holding it or standing near is not to stand between the meter and the speaker you’re measuring and don’t breath heavily on it might skew the reading and frankly it‘s a little strange.

I’m with Steve (Sroode) on the Audyssey issue. I’ve gone back to not using it as I’ve been doing a lot of tweaking and running Audyssey is a pain made even worse by adding height and wide speakers. I just use my Onkyo’s test tones and a tape measurer. I will try Audyssey again once I’ve got everything sounding the best I can without it.

1k on RF remotes. Makes me even happier my IR blasts through the curtains and French doors into the office with my equipment rack.

Well I got one of those little GorillaPods, wanted one for my camera anyway.

I ran Onkyo setup:

Equalizer:None
Speaker Distance: USed a tape measure
Set crossovers per Docs recommendations:

Front 80
Center 80
Surrounds 80
Rears 90
SW 120

And ran the pink noise setup: Set SW @ 12:00, O phase, SSF: 0ff CO: 120

Here are my new "trims"

Left: -0.5 (W22)
Center: -4.0 (W150 & W100)
Right: -1.5 (W22)
SR: -4.0 (QS8)
SBR +2.5 (QS4)
SBL +2.5 (QS4)
SL: -3.0 (QS8)
SW -.05 (EP500)

Watched some LFE scences, and bumped and SW volume at bit.. watched more and then went back into setup and bumped SW DB to 0.00.

I think I like it much better. Time will tell. (Next I'll have to pick a day to mess with the equalizer settings)

Thanks All

I have to say .... with adding the rears.. now nine cabinets and 31 drivers in that tiny room (11'w x 10.5 d) it looks like a boston cherry forest in there! I'll have to find a friend with a wide angle lens to show you the true impression.

There is no question what the room is all about!

How do the QS4s compare to the QS8s?

They are smaller.

Smartass.

Its amazing how much more the QS8s put out... I think Im at the end of my speaker budget for now (other projects) but I will be wanting QS8s for the rears and moving the QS4s to Heights when I can do a receiver and the additional speakers.

But I have been looking at a new Onkyo 3007? 9.2! Other projects may have to wait, maybe not! For me it has something to do with the OSD thru my HTPC.

Thanks.

Not worried, but I would think, from what all of you have said about the power of the EP500 in larger rooms, that I wouldn't have my settings as high as I do.... It's probably just me, but the gut says something ain't right. My settings? something .. as I have said before .. in comparison to my 10" JBL .. I was thinking liver damage .. but seems I keep turning the EP500 up!

Jeff, there were some postings back a few months ago that seemed to indicate that the volume knob on the 500 was modified so it had to be turned up a bit more.

It's not any less powerful, but it seemed that many people found they had no "range" to work with on the knob...i.e., they barely turned it up a couple of notches to have it blasting!

I'll give that a go!

Thanks

Mark is right, they did change the range. I think I had the older EP500s, and there was very little range to work with. It was either too quiet, a small area of just right (like between 1:30 and 2 o'clock), or way too much. Don't worry about turning it up if you want to, the subs have internal protection.

I feel better, will go do a little spin on the knob and not feel like I'm breaking a rule, and just enjoy

Spin away. As long as it sounds good to you. I think a lot of people like to run the sub a little hot for movies. I certainly did in the beginning. As I tweeked I gradually brought the sub in line with the rest of the system. Really though, as long as it sounds good to you...

It's probably just the difference of having all these new speakers and new brands and getting use to it.

Actually, for the most part, I think most I have listened to, have ehough "Audio Bass".

It's just when I'm watching a movie, as an example 2012 and I can't feel or barely feel the earthquakes, I feel like somethings not quite right. Watching the Depth Charge seen in U-572(?), That's when I had to turn it up to "feel" the bass in the movie.

I'll get it right, I'm new to audio(truely caring about the audio and having the correct gear to do it), anal, and over analyze all. So I'm always second guessing myself.

So now it's time to get some video calibration disks and drive myself nuts with those!

Thanks

Nothing wrong with that at all. I like to run my bass "hot" for movies as well. Adjust to your liking. The EP500 should be able to handle it with no problem. I'm a lazy bastard, and while I am enjoying a beer, wine or hard liquor (or whatever else ) I like to adjust the sub at the receiver level with the remote so I don't have to get out of my chair. After the movie I adjust it back to the original setting.