Re: two way multiple sub system
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Dec 2003
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But, many people around here have mentioned how when they run their m80's or m60's as large speakers with the sub off that the bass just seems quicker, tighter and more well defined. Many of those guys have Axiom subs. Granted, running no sub will not have as much low end extension as running a sub. Most likely due to the fact the lower notes overshadow the higher frequencies, making it harder to hear the mid - upper bass range, especially if the room is sucking out some midbass etc. all the while emphasizing a lower range. There are even some reviewers that always run their systems sub-less and mention the reason that they do this is for more musical well defined bass. For the samre reason I noted above.
Jason M80 v2 VP160 v3 QS8 v2 PB13 Ultra Denon 3808 Samsung 85" Q70
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Re: two way multiple sub system
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,116
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Sep 2008
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Nick, your premise about the bigger sub sounding "sloppy" higher up compared with a smaller sub doesn't really have factual support. This isn't factual support. But, many people around here have mentioned how when they run their m80's or m60's as large speakers with the sub off that the bass just seems quicker, tighter and more well defined. Many of those guys have Axiom subs. Granted, running no sub will not have as much low end extension as running a sub. This can be perceived for a variety of reasons and it has nothing to do with the smaller bass drivers being tighter and more well defined. 1) A poorly designed subwoofer. 2) A well designed subwoofer that is not properly calibrated or running "hot". 3) Improper crossover integration between the subwoofer and the main speakers when set to small. 4) Placement issues. Some have found this "boomy", "flabby" characteristic to occur from corner loading a sub for example. Here is another article on this topic that you might find interesting as well. It is from Alan Lofft of Axiom audio. http://www.axiomaudio.com/tightbass.html
I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.
-Max Payne
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Re: two way multiple sub system
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 504
aficionado
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OP
aficionado
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Wow, there has been a lot of good information from all to help me clear this up. Alan's article hit the nail on the head with this issue and I am completely convinced. The first link was also very good, but quite technical. The "flabby", "loose" bass myth is almost as bad as the need for ultra expensive cables (speaker cable, HDMI, etc.) myth. It seems that to choose the correct sub you just have to narrow it down to good sub companies like: Axiom, Hsu, Outlaw, SVS, etc. Once you settle on the brand just make sure that you choose one (or preferably two) large enough to fill your listening area. That's it.
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Re: two way multiple sub system
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569 |
Most likely due to the fact the lower notes overshadow the higher frequencies, making it harder to hear the mid - upper bass range, especially if the room is sucking out some midbass etc. all the while emphasizing a lower range.
Jay hit the nail on the head for why I’ve preferred my M80s alone for music just look at the before curve: http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=307389&fpart=1Even though the curve for the M80s is going to be no better, w/o the big low bass hump overpowering everything else the M80 come out sounding “tighter” and “clearer.” It’s also why I’ve often run my M80s using “double bass” or “LFE + Mains” to get some smoothing from having multiple bass sources even though they are not optimally placed for that purpose.
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1
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Re: two way multiple sub system
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786 |
I'll wager that at least half of those that find the bass from their mains 'quicker' do so because someeone told them they should.
The other half probably benefit from in room placement of the mains giving them better upper bass than wherever they put the sub.
The other reason one might have 'slow' bass from a sub is if the driver is marginal and has been optimized for bottom end performance at the sacrifice of upper end dynamics.
I have modeled a 10" driver where I could get good output down to 17Hz, but the trade off was that the driver started to roll off noticably above 80 Hz. Changing the tuning so that the low end roll off was at 25Hz restored the top end.
On the other hand, if you use a monster driver like the Exodos Mal-X 18 you have enough excursion for sub 15Hz performance, but have enough power handling and a well enough designed driver that you do not loose anything at the top end.
I think that this is why Axioms subs sound so good with music. Nothing is sacrificed in the upper bass to get more low end distortion.
If you are really curious about stuff like this, go over to avsforum.com and search the DIY speakers & subs forum for user Mark Seaton. He has made a number of excellent posts where he talks about sub desing and tradeoffs.
Fred
------- Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
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Re: two way multiple sub system
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,654
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,654 |
Yes, Doc; thanks for linking Alan's excellent article which covers these points very well. Ian's observation about how a sub crossed over higher might sound "tighter" simply because it was playing "tighter" higher frequencies was quite interesting.
-----------------------------------
Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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Re: two way multiple sub system
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 504
aficionado
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OP
aficionado
Joined: Aug 2006
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If you are really curious about stuff like this, go over to avsforum.com and search the DIY speakers & subs forum for user Mark Seaton. He has made a number of excellent posts where he talks about sub desing and tradeoffs. He has a small company that makes Seaton Submersive subs that he designed right. Everybody talks about them and how great they are, but you can't find much info, like pictures, frequency response, etc. I know that they are supposed to have dual opposing 15" drivers in a box and that's about it.
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Re: two way multiple sub system
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420 |
IIRC, Seton was regarded as THE man for subs by those on av123 and I beleive he is/was helping Craig with some stuff at TCA.
Jason M80 v2 VP160 v3 QS8 v2 PB13 Ultra Denon 3808 Samsung 85" Q70
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Re: two way multiple sub system
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,116
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,116 |
IIRC, Seton was regarded as THE man for subs by those on av123 and I beleive he is/was helping Craig with some stuff at TCA. Mark Seaton has cut ties with AV123 as well as TCA from what I understand. He doesn't develop any products for AV123 anymore and never developed anything for TCA. He has his own company of course which is pushing out product.
I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.
-Max Payne
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Re: two way multiple sub system
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420 |
I knew I had read that Mark was going to be involved, look up the Sasquatch 18? thread........... Never mind http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71
Jason M80 v2 VP160 v3 QS8 v2 PB13 Ultra Denon 3808 Samsung 85" Q70
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