Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater How would I build an axiom home theatre for 1kish?

Hi, I'm new around here. I have always liked accurate, good audio and somehow I think Id like to try Axiom speakers. People seem friendly and the community is nice. I am going to call them up on the phone tomorrow and chat some if I get time.

So for around 1000 dollars what could I build? I was thinking at first maybe a pair of m60's and a center channel vp 100 would be good? Yeah I know that's more like 1200 dollars but what can you do?

I really like the way the vp150 looks tho. I mean a set of m22's with a vp150 and the lower end subwoofer would be swell too right? I do not want to make so much noise to wake up the house hold. I'm more after accurate, nice sound that is really clear and good sounding.

I am a japanese animation fan more than a music fan, so I do not know if that would change the type of speaker you would reccomend. Often me and a buddy are up late watching anime together and I would not like something that carries so well it would wake the whole house up ya know?

Anyway I would appreciate your imputs. thank you in advance.

PS I will be going to an anime convention this weekend and will try to get back and read this often but I will be in con mode, at the con 16 hours a day, sleep 6 hours, shower.. what's a shower? Kidding, but you get the drift.

Jon, welcome. In my view the priority order for an HT setup should be: mains, surrounds, sub, center. The mains can form a "phantom" center which can ease the problem of a tight budget. Note that by using the Axiom Outlet(new speakers with very minor cosmetic blemishes)you save 10%. I'd suggest that you get M22 mains and QS4 surrounds from the outlet for about $800. Then, the remaining $200 or so really can't get a suitable Axiom sub, so you might consider something such as the Acoustech PL-200(available around $280)which one of our members, Dana Duval, got recently and with which he's very pleased.

Hi, welcome to the forums! Your room size would play a factor in which of those options would be best. I have M60's and a VP100 up front and the soundstage is quite seemless. You would be able to get away without a sub for now if you went that route, but I would recommend one as well as some QS8's down the road to complete the package. These speakers are awesome, accurate, and very detailed, so regardless of what you watch or listen too, they perform very well.

JohnK is giving good advice. I'm wondering if you can give more details about your listening environment. Dimensions? How wide is the seating area? How far away is the seating?

I would also recommend going without a center for now, especially if it's mainly going to just be you and one friend enjoying the system at a time.

M22s and a VP100 are a great combination, I ran this set up with QS8s for a few years till upgrading to M80s. I would add a sub to this and get the surrounds as you can afford them. I find the addition of a center channel allows for better dialogue intelligibility due to the fact you can bump this channel up a little higher in the avr over the rest of the audio channels which is much better for those late night movies without waking up the household.

Nice. I am impressed by the swift responses guys.

my listening area is smaller than I would like. I'm in a 12 by 22 room but half of that 22 is occupied by a train layout so consider it a 12 by 11.

I have poor vision so I am usually about 3-4 foot away from my screen. Also we have two computers on one side of our room occupying it. eh I will try to draw a little map. :P

______________________________________________
[TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT...(fire)..(TV---)..(Mcomp}
[T................T...........(stand)..(/////}
[T................T(tredbike)........ ....(//}
[T................TX........X.......(isit)(//}
[T................TX........X.............(//)
[T................TX........X(fsits)......(//)
[T................TX........X.............(//)
[T................TXXXXXXXXXX.............(//)
[T................T................(dsits)(//)
[T................T.......................(//)
[T................T..........................)
[T................T........X(cabinents)XX....)
[T................T.(door).X............X(closet)
______________________________________________]

So part of the problem stems from how I must share this space with my dad. :P He has this massive train layout which is somewhat cool, but not that space hogging cool.

In the middle we have a treadmill and exercise bike, and then there are cabinents on the back wall. I honestly think we need to move stuff out to make room for better toys. But it is hard.

Anyways so i guess my listening area is about a 10 by 12. I do not think I have room for all the surround hardware atm but maybe.

By the way do you reccomend the vp100 over the vp150 for a small area? I dunno why but the dual tweeters and three speakers on it look sweet. they are likely overkill though.

I'm sure more responses will follow in the morning. On a side note, what are some of your favorite anime series?

Hah that map was really rough. sorry. Uh the right side of my room on that map is covered by a huge wooden desk that me and my dad built. It has two large computers and a professional print station on it. it's pretty well utilized on that side.

My favorite anime shows. Wow let's see.

I have always enjoyed full metal panic. that show is good at making me laugh, espcially fumofu however I like how the show does a lot of different things and does them pretty well.

For more modern anime I just watched this one called Nodame Contable. It was soo good. unfortunately it's not for sale in the US. it was made back in 06 and likely won't be ported over.. Sad thing.

Anyways Nodame Contable is a romantic comedy about two college students who are going to school to be in an orchestra. It doesn't sound it but it is very funny and has a lot of good heartfelt moments. I feel it likely won't be ported due to the fact that it is a really mature anime. It was unusual in that way and targeted towards older women.


Macross Frontier is another one of my favorite animes, also not currently available in america. It's a story about a fighter pilot and an aspiring idol, as well as a falling idol, and the love triangle they have while they try to defend humanity battlestar galactica style. It's a little echhi and a little imature at times but really lovely to listen to. I gotta say a romance about two idols and a fighter pilot though is not likely to be mature in the first place, but who knows.

Classic Slayers is a good one, although hard to reccomend to a new fan. It's got action, big swords, huge spells, and cheesy humor. Of course the slayers revolution and evolution R were excellent extensions to those. I got them on dvd.

Some people might roll their eyes but the latest of Naruto Shippuden is actually really good. I've got a crunchyroll subscription and really like watching some random stuff there..

Also Inuyasha final act off hulu is a trip, quickly wrapping up the series in 26 episodes. They did a really good job of that one.

There were several good anime movies that I have seen too. I could go on for a while because I have a pretty extensive library. :P

Also if you like fighting games, anime, and have an xbox-360 check out Soul Calibur 4 and Tales of Vesperia. Two of my favorite xbox 360 games.

I admit vesperia was a little shallow on the story but the characters were more than entertaining enough, and if you are a gem hunter, want to find all the weapons and outfits, extra bosses in the games you play it won't disappoint.

Ah I could keep rambling but I need to be well rested for my con this weekend.

Say JohnK on topic that sounds very nice. I could save some dollars that way. I'll consider it.

So get some nice m22's and you reccomend the surround sound over a sub? Good to note.

Now unfortunately it seems I will need an audio amplifier. my current set up are self amped ones. I am using a bluesky mediadesk 2.1 which is a very pretty setup but I think my amplifier is about to go bad on me.

Well, maybe, you see if the rca in's on my woofer are bumped even the slightest then my speakers start humming really loud. Actually even if the speakers are just sitting there for about eight hours or so they will randomly start up, assuming I didn't turn them off.

I think there is an issue with the way they are being grounded. My mediadesk 2.1's had some fuses blow after I had got them, after several fuses I had called the manufacturer who sent me a plug that helped to prevent that from happening, but it seems like my amplifier is having some electrical issues again.

Anyways I tried new cables. I got some dayton banana plugs for my satalights and audioquest copperhead cables to try to reduce that rca noise. It didn't work so again I think I have a grounding issue.

So I was thinkin I could upgrade my setup and then take my bluesky's and put them by our second tv, maybe they would have more luck upstairs.

Thanks for sharing some titles. Nodame Cantabile sounds interesting. I'll have to find a way to watch it.

I did enjoy Soul Calibur IV, though I didn't play it too much. I should have a friend over and put it in again. I actually own Tales of Vesperia, too, but I have to admit I haven't even played it yet. Thanks for reminding me.

My sister likes the manga of Naruto, but she didn't like the anime for some reason. A couple of people have mentioned Crunchyroll to me, but I always forget to go try it out. You'd think I would remember something that sounds so delicious.

I'm behind on watching InuYasha. I own a couple of seasons that I haven't yet watched. Nice to hear that The Final Act is satisfying.

I watched the first several episodes of Slayers a long time ago with my friend, but it didn't grab me at the time. I should give it another shot.

Anyway, sorry to sidetrack the thread. I'll let the more helpful people get it going in the right direction again.

Yes, surround sound is an essential element of Home Theater.

By the way, Audioquest calls those cables "Copperhead" because that's apparently the variety of snake oil that they pumped into it to sell the stuff. Don't be fooled by the charlatans of the wire world. Deal with low-cost suppliers such as MonoPrice.

I was going to originally ask if the budget was for speakers only or if you'd need a receiver. JohnK, what's your current recommendation for an inexpensive receiver?

Probably this factory refurb Denon 589 for about $144.

Yes, JohnJ. There are plenty of charlatans in the wire world and the audio industry in general. Unfortuntely the internet and the audio press/media has enabled this sort of quackery from vendors for a long time and still continue to do.

Ah I see. Okay that's pretty helpful to know.

I kind of thought the 200 dollar king cobra cables they sold were a little crazy. BUT I will say that the copperhead cables were an upgrade over my monster cables in terms of quality, and I only paid 45 dollars for the pair so I was not totally ripped off eh?

Interesting refurb amp. How long do amps usually last?

Okay, so the receiver looks really sweet for that price actually. -tosses in cart- I almost want to just buy that one now and sort out the rest of the details later.

My only question about it tho is like, the v22's use more than 75 watts right? Of course I would never want to drive them to full power realistically, that would hurt right?

Just not too sure if 75 watts per channel is sufficient is all, what do you all think?

$45 for a pair of cables isn't too bad as long as each one is 22.5' long. This would make them on par with Axiom's own excellent speaker wire, otherwise you still paid too much for them and let's not bring up Monoprice's own 12 gauge wire which is even cheaper but less flexible As long as you are happy with those wires that is all that matters, no matter what they cost.

An amp should last forever, well pretty close. Most refurb avr's are in better condition than the originals, IMO.

Hey Bakajon

My room is about 10x20 and I'm running M22 Mains, and QS8 Surrounds. No Sub, No Centre and a Denon 1910 at 90W / channel. I was on a tight budget when I bought.

Yes, I agree, surrounds are more important than subs unless you're using a cheap Home Theatre in a Box. My M22s alone put out better bass than my old "1000W" Sony HTIB with a "sub". Between the M22s bass and the Denon's Phantom Center, I don't feel an immediate need for a sub or center.

The M22s will pull 200W per chanel according to specs. However, 90W Denon ARV-1910 more than fills my room and I've *never* had to turned it up to full power. -13 seems to be the sweet spot. Anything over that really *is* uncomfortably loud! 75W should be enough for your needs.

Side note, I bought my Denon from Dakmart also.

All my cabling is from MonoPrice and a local store.

snazzed

Just to be clear speakers do not PULL power out of an amp, speakers offer resistance (4, 8, 16 ohms etc) to power flow. The amp feeds them power and in this case the M22 can handle 200W per speaker without failing; as long as it is clean power.

...and power becomes less clean the closer you get to the output limit of the amp.

Picky, picky, picky!

The M22 speaker will laugh in the face of power sources less than 200W!

Better? :p

snazzed

Still, a 350 Watt amp driving M22s to uncomfortable listening levels, but not near it's limit will cause less damage than a 75 Watt amp driven hard into clipping. The later will more than likely ruin the tweeters.

Ah I see, so ideally having an amp with a higher head-room would keep the sound cleaner. nifty.

I am learning a lot from you guys tyvm.

Next question. :P I have a set of bluesky media 2.1's...

If I wanted to could I integrate the satalights into an axiom set up to save cash initially? Here are my current left and right channels.

Was thinking maybe with a splitter they could make a good center channel.

You can see a pic of my current two sats in the top right. I think they could be driven by the amplifier.

http://abluesky.com/products/mediadesk-2-1-mkii/

So right now I am convinced that I need m22's, any "decent" subwoofer. has anyone tried the vp125 axiom made? the low end 375 dollar one?

And those rear surrounds look dreamy, so for sure I am buying axiom m22's and the rear surrounds, and very likely a low end woofer from them so I don't shake the house.

Oh this may sound like a silly question but are Axion speakers considered to be full range? I know my old ones are, I bought them for 500 dollars, they seem kind of wimpy compared to the axioms but I am curious in terms of range how they stack up? I am sure they will be better cut just curious.

By the way thank you all so much for all this help. Your awesome. :P

Say say, I was looking around that webpage you pointed me to JonK and found this.

http://www.dakmart.com/p11038/Denon-AVR-...oduct_info.html

Value wise it is not better than the one you pointed me to but it allows me to grow my system, also I read in a 5.1 configuration you can double amp two main speakers, so if I got an m60 or something it might be able to provide it with some more juice anyway.

do you think that one or save cash and go for the 589?

Depends on your idea of full range. Will they play most notes, yes they can. Will they play thunderous bass notes below 30hz, no they won't and very few speakers will.

Axiom floorstanders would be considered full range for all but the most demanding of low notes in music and HT. The bookshelf speakers are good down to 60-80hz then taper off rapidly which is why a good subwoofer is required to fill in the lack of low frequency response. Most bookshelf speakers produced by any manufacturer operate this way even though some try to say they are full range.

The double amp feature does nothing to increase the power output, it simply allows the lower frequencies to be played via the same output wattage that is available to the mids and uppers. It will cost you more in that you also need to buy more wire which is why some call this Buy-wiring (Bi-wire) a speaker.

I see, all good to know. Okay next question.

Do av receivers have non-powered outs? For example I have a powered subwoofer currently, was thinking I could stagger my upgrade if I could run a non powered rca or xlr out to my existing woofer. Just a thought.

These days most receivers do not have non-powered, pre-amp outputs. That's a feature reserved for higher-end receivers (which are less likely to need external amps, it's a paradox).

Those are powered speakers. They have an amp built in and so need a low level signal from a pre-am/pre-out. I don't think that you can asign the center or surround channels to pre-outs in a receiver.

Can someone explain the Bi-Amping thing

My Receiver will let me use the B Speakers as fronts along with A. (right now I'm just using A, single Amp).

If I wire the A terminals to the bottom posts and the B terminals to the top posts, how will this *not* improve my situation? Wouldn't dedicating a 90W Amp to the woofers and a seperate 90W Amp to the tweeters effectively deliver more power? I mean, yeah, you're still getting 90W but its not split between drivers.

I would *think* (and I'm not audio engineer) that by taking drivers out of the equation for a given amp, effectively lowering the resistance. After all, a single 90W Amp now only had to drive 2 Midranges, not 2 Mids and a Tweet... now if the Amp is providing 90W and (as pointed out earlier) the speaker is now providing less resistance...

or do I need to go back to High School Physics?


snazzed

The way I am reading this makes me think you are looking for a low level line out which most AVR's have at least for subwoofers. If you want the rest of the channels as line level outs you have to move up the line to more expensive models.

Snazzed. Though you may have multiple discreet amps in your receiver, you still only have one power supply delivering power to all those amps and it is the limiting factor.

I don't know if this holds true for companies like Anthem that give their power ratings as all channels driven instead of 2 channels driven.

Just means their PS's are that much stronger.

Thats what I figured, but had never thought through the implications.

If Anthem specs out an amp at 90W x 5 does that mean that each amp channel is limited to 90W or that they very conservatively rate each channel?

Jon, the M22s are about average in sensitivity and use about 1 watt for a comfortably loud level(around 85dB)at a typical listening position. Of course, brief peaks in the source material will require much more power, but not likely anything that receivers such as the 589 couldn't supply.

Yes, you wouldn't want to drive them to the full rated power capacity. That refers to what the speakers, not you, can handle without permanent damage. Precautions to avoid permanent hearing loss should always be taken.

Byron, High School Physics can't handle this unless your school included audio amplifier technology in the curriculum. An HT receiver doesn't have separate amplifiers; there's one amplifier directing its output through several channels of output transistors. The output transistors act as valves to take the required amount of voltage from the one central power supply section to increase the incoming voltage at any instant, typically 25-30 times. The power supply section sets the limit on the maximum voltage that can be supplied to all the channels combined at any instant. Simply directing the same amount of maximum voltage available to a speaker through two sets of "valves"(one previously unconnected to a speaker)rather than one doesn't double the power available(as some imagine)and can't increase it by any amount. The output transistors in the several channels have no power of their own.

Ah, if it helps my sats are connected to my woofer only by banana plug, they are not self powered but rather my subwoofer works as an amp for my speakers, makes sense?

That's why I was thinking they could be plugged into an avr.

No, the amplifier in the subwoofer never powers speakers, it only powers the driver in the subwoofer. Apparently you feed the signal into your sub and one branch takes it into the sub amp to drive the sub, while another branch goes straight through into the speaker. Unless the speaker is connected to some other amplifier it's indeed self-powered. Note that the info you linked states that the satellites are "60-watt powered".

Okay so here is what my cart looks like. Just shy of 1600 dollars.

vp150 center channel
qs4 surrounds
m22 pair
ep125 woofer.

It is really close to the midi grand master 2k priced set. I only wonder if it's not "balanced" the way it is now. IMO it looks incredible but want to get one or two opinions before I punch the OK button on this order.

Also if you call axiom can you maybe sometimes get an extra 5% price cut if your buying something better than you had planned? I would gladly pay 1900 for the grand master set. :P It'd alleviate some worry about it not all being balanced out.

I'll try to call them up before work on monday unless they have sunday hours. :P Which I hope they do, can't wait to hear the audio.

As far as the center channel, one way to save money and have more ideal sound is to have a third M22 instead of a VP150. If you can fit it into your space, that's what I would do.

I've never heard the lower-end, non-DSP Axiom subs, but the general consensus seems to be that you can get more value with other brands. If a matching look is important to you, though, then that's a consideration.

That being said, I'm sure that system would sound great.

First, on discounts, besides the 10% off on individual items ordered from the Outlet, you can get an additional 5% off if you order at least five items(at least $30 each)at once. One of them could be as little as $30 worth of speaker wire.

As to the proposed system, you're going way over your original budget, but I'm going to try and hold you to it. As I suggested before, get the M22s and QS4s, then add $30 of speaker wire for the fifth item to get the 5% discount. A more powerful sub than the EP125 is desirable, so I'll again mention that Acoustech PL-200 for which offers around $280 have been accepted. Also, I'll repeat that you can at least temporarily do without a separate center speaker, since the M22s create a fine phantom center image.

Okay Jon, your right. I have sort of blown my budget -bows slightly- I grudgingly admit that I have become very excited by the audio gear.

I will check out that other woofer, and see what I can do for the hardware again in the shop before I go to bed.

I admit I do not think I want to wait 4 weeks for the outlet items to show up. I love the idea of the 2 day delivery time after ordering so I am likely to not buy outlet as much as I respect that option.



But after looking at the total bill I may change my tone. Thanks for the woofer name again.

So after doing research on that woofer, the Acoustech PL-200 I can get it for 320 dollars easily and it is an incredible performer.

Some people talked about another model they liked more, but overall this one seems good and easily available.

I do have a question about the surrounds. I noticed the qs8's are only 100 dollars more than the qs4's, but the only difference seems to really be in speaker power. Overall it seems to me that the qs4's are more balanced for my system, am I right?

175 watts max per speaker on the qs4 to the 200 max on the m22's seems to be a good balanced match - Is wattage a good way to check to see if speakers are "balanced?" for example the vp150 has a 400 watt max and the vp100 has a 200 watt max wattage

So unless I am reading it wrong the vp150's would be louder and dominant in a system with m22's and qs4's am I correct? So a vp100 would be more "balanced?" I think I may be wrong, just checking out a theory.

I am still learning here, though I feel like you guys have taught me a lot, again thanks, especially to Jonk :P

I will likely make my purchase on sunday at this rate. friday and saturday are all day anime con days. Off to bed with me, I am having too much fun playing with audio hardware.

$280 offers accepted here .

sweetness. Say I notice that woofer has left and right outs as well as being bi-ampable if I am looking at the plugs right? You can single amp it just fine through the denon 589 avr right?

Okay I think all of this is really coming together then, lookin good.

If any individual speaker is over-powered I can always tweak the power per speaker using the avr right? never used one before. :P

The woofer if any part seems op for the system but i kinda like it. One reviewer said it put the ep350 to shame.

Awesome.. I clicked there to order though and the price was 329. I wrote in a 280 dollar offer though to see if they would accept it..

At this point I guess it's just time to wait for the con to be over before placing my whole order.

@JohnK

I thought when a Reciever was rated for 90Wx7 that they indeed, had 7 small amlifiers each rated to 90W. No?

So, really, if I were to crack open my Denon, I would find 1 larger 630W Amplifier?

So... does that mean that they cap the per channel output to 90W continuous, or if I only hooked up 2 speakers could I run theoretically get 315W per channel?

And, d00d, if I wanted to be indentified by my first name, I would refer to myself by that in my posts. Not a huge deal... just sayin.

Thanks
snazzed

You use the subwoofer preout on the Denon which is a low level output. The sub has it's own amp so it only needs a signal. The volume will be controlled by the sub out and marginally by the output level you select on the avr. the other option is for high level inputs. This when you connect the main speaker wires to the sub and it uses that signal instead, (This is not Biamping) the speaker lines are then connected to the other set of terminals and continue on to the main speakers.

correct. I can't remember if the 589 has an auto setup or not, if it does then it will adjust the speaker volume levels equally when run. If not then you will want to get an SPL(Sound Pressure Level) meter. Radio Shack sells a very common, cheap one that works. When/If you get one we can help with it's use.

Correct but the Power Supply in the avr most likely is not capable of supplying that much to all 7 amps at the same time so the amps are limited by the cheaper power supply.

only on some models can you get that much power when the other channels are not used. most avr's when in 2 channel mode will have good enough amp sections on the mains to achieve higher than 7 channel specified ratings but to achieve a near halving of the total power is something usually only found in seperate amplifiers like Axioms A1400-8.

No, maximum wattage is a terrible way to compare speakers. It's almost entirely arbitrary.

Wow, so for this setup how many banana plug pairs am I lookin at?

correct me if I am wrong but I will need.

1 set for center
2 for left, and right
2 for the rear surrounds and i will probably need 30 feet of cable per.
2 for the woofer?

i currently have 2 six foot cables, those will probably be used for the center satalight and or woofer.

Bananas are the way to go yes?

Ah okay Kcarlie thank you.

No need to get any banana plugs, bare wire is the easiest(sometimes) way to connect every thing, especially for flush mounting the QS series of speakers as they sit too close to the wall to get banana plugs into the terminals.

I usually run banana plugs for the wiring on the back of the receiver and at the speaker end on my mains and center as I tend to swap out my M80s/VP150 for my M22s/VP100 once in a while.

I'm with Jay there. I use Bananaplugs for the back of the reciever because its a pain to get at. I've got bare wire on all my speaker terminals.

snazzed

Just an FYI, your name is in your public profile so you may want to remove it.... snazzed

Monoprice has some really nice prices. I will learn how to install my own banana plugs, no problem. I can pay that for wire and not have to worry.

I was afraid of paying $100 for rear surround cable. whew. 100 feet of cable is probably all that I need.

I was reading in a review on these forums that qs8's destroy qs4's. Any truth to that? I mean they have twice the umph and only cost 20% more. It seems worth it.

Heh. Speaking of which I have almost talked myself back into using the outlet store even if I have to wait a month for my speakers. I am having so much fun at the convention that it is worth saving 140 dollars to wait a month all of a sudden.

Is the wait time almost always one month? Just curious.

Not enough difference between the 2 centers to say one is better suited for the M22, just that the difference in $ isn't necessary to achieve good sound. The VP150 plays a little deeper than the VP100 which makes some male voices sound better, IMO, but this was only noticeable via A/B testing and I think many would never notice any differences even with A/B testing, it was that subtle of a difference.

Ah, interesting, so the main difference is volume? I was thinking the extra tweeter would make a diff.

I am probably just attempting to spend more once again, hah. silly me, but there is something glorious about seeing 5 speakers directly under or above my tv. Of course sadly I usually wouldn't want to play them much above talking levels because I like to chat with people, not yell with people while watching shows.

so yeah, this whole rig is likely overkill, not to say it isn't a lot of fun. The idea of 7 woofers and 4 tweeters to provide sound to an area only 10-12 feet across is probably a little insane now that I consider it. Maybe m2's and v100's would be a good way to save some cash?

I really like good sounding voices though. When I listen to music I pay attention to the lyrics, how lovely they are sang and the meaning to the words. That's the kind of listener I am.

Okay, thanks again guys.

So I started thinking seriously about mounting the speakers, when I should be asleep I might add.

I was going to buy some full metal brackets, actually those might be good for angling the m22 bookshelf speakers right? for left and right channels? But then I saw the wall mounted speakers and thought those would be sturdier on wall.

So yeah, are the full metal brackets worth getting for left and right? The rear surrounds are likely fine with a t bracket because they are dispersed anyway, but focusing left and right speakers and putting them at the perfect height seems important.

I was also reading that IF I get a center channel, not telling JohnK if I will or not because he will scold me. ;P anyways I was reading that the tweeters from the left and right channels should be within 24 inches or preferably on the same line as the tweeters on the m22's.. interesting eh? Anyway with full metal brackets it would let me play with positioning more.