Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater M80 vs M60 choice - room size considerations

I took delivery of a pair of M2is and VP150 last night. So far I am very impressed. I wanted to get a feel for the Axiom sound before going the full route, but given what I've heard (and seen, very nice vinyl finish) so far, I am thinking of going the full route.

I will do a 7 channel setup. I plan on putting the M2is as rear surround, getting 2 VP100s for side surrounds (horizontal bookshelf placement is a must - do they timbre match well with 2is?) and either M60ti's or 80's for the fronts. The room is 16 x 18 with a cathedral ceiling that peaks at 10 feet from a low of 7.5 feet. I sit 11.5 feet away. The speakers will be 9 feet apart and 2 feet from the rear wall.

Will this system work (mixing the 100s and 2s as surrounds) and will the 80s be too much for the room? Many of the reviews I've read suggest the 80s need like 4000 cubic feet to really sound good, and I've only got 2800. Even the Axiom website suggests the Epic 60 in rooms from 2000 to 6000 cubic feet and the Epic 80 in rooms 4000 and above.

Any thoughts?

I would highly recommend the QSx series for surrounds as opposed to the centre channels.
Some have debated whether having a centre channel in the rear would be better but from what i've heard with the QSx style vs. direct radiating speakers, the indirect firing drivers are far more effective in these positions.
I think the concentrated sound should still be placed up front.

Unfortunately, I have no room on the sides for the QSX series. Maximum height I can accomodate is about 10". The M2i doesn't even work.

Height 10"?
The M2 won't work but a vp100 will?
I think you need to add more details about this room and its constraints.
Pictures are nice, if you have them.

Very simple. Bookcases on either side of the seating area. Bare walls at the back. 7 channel config dictates sides and rears. Bookcases allow a maximum height of 10". VP100 and 150 are around 7" high, give or take. I tried the M2 in its vertical position: it's too high for the bookcase.

Leaving aside the sides, what about the M60 vs M80 question, which to me is the bigger of the questions as I'm not constrained as far as size by room or shelf considerations, but by sonic considerations.

tony,
Now i understand what you are getting at by saying you only have 10".
However both of the QSx speakers are under the 10" height with the QS4 only being 6.5" tall. This gives plenty of space to put 1" rubber feet underneath to allow for the bottom woofer to fire more openly.
I have one of my QS8s sitting on a shelf right now and it works fine. I can post a pic if necessary.

As for the M60 vs M80, according to Alan & Ian, the M80 simply has more bass extension and plays louder. That's about it.

I was the under the impression that the QS's needed to be used in free space. So they can actually sit on a shelf with only a small space underneath to allow the sound to escape?

There are 4 firing drivers for the QSx speakers, one of which is on the bottom side.
Of course it is not "optimal" to have it covered up but if it is at least a bit above a bottom surface then at the most, you will have a fast sound reflection from the underlying plane.
Personally i think it makes the surround sound that much more dispersed but certainly i have noticed it taking anything away from how effectively the speakers make their surround sounds.
Like i said, get some little rubber 1" feet and just lift them off the shelf.
Until recently i actually had both my QS8s on shelves. Now one is wall mounted.
I will see if i still have a pic of the one QS8 sitting on its shelf.

Ok here it is:

I was trying to remember who had that setup. I was getting kind of depressed about not being able to use QS8s because I'd have to have the top woofer about 1-2" below the ceiling. Nice to know that sort of thing sounds ok. I did post in another thread about turning them 90 degrees so the tweeter was pointing at the ceiling, but my post seems to have killed the thread.

way to show off your scotch collection there, chess.

Nice pictures, Chess. However, Axiom specifically recommends that they not be placed on a bookshelf, so I don't think I want to go down that path. Besides, I have owned various dipoles, bipoles and tripoles (M&Ks) and always go back to preferring direct radiators for my surrounds. I find that in a 7 channel setup, the envelopment aspect of the various non-monopolar speakers is less important.

Chess, you can turn the QS8 90 degrees so it's sitting on the thin side. That way none of the drivers are blocked. It's not very stable in that position but you can secure it to the wall with a piece of velcro tape, etc. Not optimal but a lot better than sitting on one of the drivers.

chess,did you ever consider cutting a hole in the shelf for the bottom driver?...ron

I have the itch to upgrade my QS4's to QS8's, but I've been concerned about placement. Right now, my right surround is mounted above the door, giving 6" clearance for the top woofer to bounce off the ceiling. Both surrounds are even with my listening position - 90 degrees - and I'm really satisfied with how they perform in that position. If I upgrade to QS8's, there will be only about 4.25" clearance from the ceiling. Does anyone think that I have any cause for concern?

First off, I too admire that scotch collection. A bottle of Talisker sits a bit higher in our room -- hopefully it won't have to be hit too hard during the Patriots game today. (Family is from N.E., not Texas.)

Secondly, though perhaps not of as much importance as single malt scotch, I would think there's some ingenious way to attach the QS8s to the bookshelves. Assuming you have spans of 6' or more, there must be some kind of vertical trim between the bookshelf cabinets. If I were facing this dilemma, I'd attach the downward firing QS8s to the shelf/shelves in question on the vertical trim, flush with the front of the bookshelves, placed at the optimal height. I can't imagine there being an acoustical problem with this, and it might look pretty cool. Only dilemma I can see is banging into them with your head as you walk near the shelves, so just place them over 6'.

This seems preferable to trying VP-100s as side surrounds.

On the M80s -- I have M60s in a 14' x 18' room, standing about 1' out from the 14' wall. We sit 10'-12' back. If I were regularly sitting 11.5' back I'd try the M80s -- you can always send them back if they don't work. As others have advised, our 60s need the distance for a good soundstage. Walking within 8' of the M60s (which stand 8' apart) you lose something ... get nice sounds, of course, but for listening the distance is important. I bet the M80s would be fine at 10' -- kinda wish I could hear them, though we are 100% satisfied with the M60s.

Birdman

That's not my single malt scotch collection
My wife drinks it.

Tony,
Axiom also recommends generic wire for use with their speakers but not everyone follows that doctrine either. Recommendations are just that, recommendations, not be-all-end-all absolutes. I'm not the only one who has had good results in propping the QSx up with some little feet or puck blocks.
That being said, i do understand what you mean about the direct radiating vs dipole, etc. style of speaker.
I did a review a long time ago of the M22s vs. the QS8s in these positions and we preferred the QS8s. However for music, it COULD be a different story depending on one's preference.

Birdman:

I spoke with Joe today from Axiom and he's recommending the 80s. He said rather than room size in my situation ancillaries would be key. He said they typically recommend the 60s with a receiver and 80s with separates. I explained I've got a whomping 300 per into 4 ohms and he said to go with the 80s.

Regarding the surrounds, he recommend a different route: he said the put the 2's on their sides in the bookcase. He said it would be a less expensive route to go than 100s and should sound equally good. Since I've got the 2s, I'm going to move them back there (one vertically and one horizontally) to see if there's much of a difference with pink noise.

That is a good idea too joema.
I might give that a try.
Otherwise, my little rubber feet will have to do the job. A couple of pucks works very nicely too.

A whole in the shelf?
I don't think the wife would appreciate that one Ron.
SHe does have delicate items on that shelf. Heaven forbid if one of them were to fall down the hole during vacuuming...

In reply to:

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Axiom also recommends generic wire for use with their speakers

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Hmmm...I wonder how they're able to sell any of their non-generic speaker wire.:)

I do think, though, that if a speaker is designed to function in free space, i.e with the woofers free and enencumbered, I don't see how an inch from a shelf is going to get them to sound anywhere near intended. But if it works for you, more power to you.

I've got a setup with the QS8's near the ceiling. I just can't post the pic on Axiom. 3-4 inches of clearance works just fine in our situation.

Still working on getting a digicam jbz?

Tony,

That's what I'd suggest as well: Use the M2i's on their sides. There will be a difference in the sound, but not all that large a difference. I did comparative tests of the M22 used vertically and on its side some time ago, and it sounded surprisingly good on its side.

But the VP100 will certainly work quite well as a surround speaker.

Regards,

I have a digital camera. I can't post the pics in my posts though.

Thanks for the response, Alan. Would you also choose the 80s over the 60s in my 16 x 18 x 10 foot room?