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#320000 - 08/25/10 06:19 PM I love when the laws of physics are wrong.
Murph Offline
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Registered: 10/05/06
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Ok, maybe more chemistry than phsysics but for some unexplainable reason it fills me with some odd sense of satisfaction when scientists realize that we know less than we thought instead of more than we thought.

I'm not sure why I feel like this. I think perhaps it is because it allows us to return to a state of imaginative exploration of the endless possibilities that the future holds. Certainly it's not a subconscious vengegeful reaction against my old smug physics teacher who didn't appreciate when I challenged him on theory vs. fact. But then again, it could be a little bit of A and a little bit of B. wink

In any case, I am refering to this article.

Is the Sun Emitting a Mysterious New Particle? ...aka... So much for the "constants" they beat into our heads in school ...aka... so much for carbon dating.
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#320013 - 08/25/10 07:34 PM Re: I love when the laws of physics are wrong. [Re: Murph]
ClubNeon Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
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I'm still with the electric universe people on this one. No new particle is needed, nor unexplained effects of neutrinos. Physics just need to realize that electrical fields play a much larger role in the universe than currently thought by most.

And this is definitely physics, the whole matter can not be created nor destroyed by ordinary, chemical means. This deals with the destruction of matter.

Carbon dating isn't going to be thrown off. It has always dealt with averages over time. Over time the fluctuations will average out...

...unless there were huge electrical upheavals in our solar system. Like maybe the birth of Venus, and it's and Mars's close encounters with Earth, causing huge electrical discharges which vaporized land mass, like the Grand Canyon.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. Let the majority physicists accept electric universe theory before we get into the actual explanation for many of the world's shared myths.
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#320015 - 08/25/10 07:52 PM Re: I love when the laws of physics are wrong. [Re: Murph]
cb919 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1166
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Whoa, too cool. I have worked with radiation for a living for my whole professional life, this really is amazing and makes me wonder how all of those text books and classes I've learned from could have missed this. Is this a new phenomenon? Why has this not been noted since of all of our radiation studies after Marie Curie? Thanks for posting that Murph! I have many people to pass this link onto. Please tell me it's not a hoax!!!
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#320019 - 08/25/10 08:36 PM Re: I love when the laws of physics are wrong. [Re: cb919]
ClubNeon Offline
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I've seen a couple reports of it. Not a hoax as far as I can tell. The reason it wasn't noticed before, is because it is such a small effect (thus the affect on radiocarbon dating is also small). It is just now that the detectors are good enough that it has been noticed. Also the solar activity minimum allowed for a prolonged period of time in which to make these observations.
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#320032 - 08/25/10 11:11 PM Re: I love when the laws of physics are wrong. [Re: ClubNeon]
cb919 Offline
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It's not the direct relation to the sun that really made me wonder why it wasn't noticed before, it was this statement:

'...Experimental error and environmental conditions have all been ruled out -- the decay rates are changing throughout the year in a predictable pattern....'


If decay rates have been varying in predictable patterns for all these years why are we just noticing it now? Decay rates have been measured ad nauseum for all kinds of elements over the years - I'd think a change like this would have been noticed before now. Again, unless this is a relatively new behaviour so could not have been observed before now.
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#320037 - 08/26/10 01:25 AM Re: I love when the laws of physics are wrong. [Re: cb919]
ClubNeon Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
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Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Sure decay rates have been measured often, but with different sized samples, with differing levels of purity. When someone says the half-life of Cesium-137 is 30.1 years, that's because all the measurements over the years which have been taken averaged together to predict that rate.

This new experiment wasn't about the half life at all, but the variance between individual atoms decaying. They were paying very close attention to how random or not the release rate of particles was. When another mathematician repeated the experiment he found a small, but consistent change in the rate.
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#320062 - 08/26/10 09:21 AM Re: I love when the laws of physics are wrong. [Re: ClubNeon]
cb919 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
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Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Got it, thanks - I was thinking on too macroscopic a level.
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#320163 - 08/26/10 10:16 PM Re: I love when the laws of physics are wrong. [Re: Murph]
a401classic Offline
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Registered: 11/29/06
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Loc: Alpharetta, GA
Originally Posted By: Murph
Ok, maybe more chemistry than phsysics but for some unexplainable reason it fills me with some odd sense of satisfaction when scientists realize that we know less than we thought instead of more than we thought.

I'm not sure why I feel like this. I think perhaps it is because it allows us to return to a state of imaginative exploration of the endless possibilities that the future holds. Certainly it's not a subconscious vengegeful reaction against my old smug physics teacher who didn't appreciate when I challenged him on theory vs. fact. But then again, it could be a little bit of A and a little bit of B. wink



As a chemist, I can attest to the many times I thought I knew what I was doing, only to find out I didn't know $#!t.
The one thing I have learned over the years is that there is always more to know, more to learn, and thus, more to apply... so we can find out what else we don't know - that we were sure we did five minutes earlier.

Sounds like a circular argument, eh?

Scott
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#320172 - 08/26/10 10:58 PM Re: I love when the laws of physics are wrong. [Re: a401classic]
JohnK Offline
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Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10634
Okay, since I have a B.S. in Chemistry too, for my undergraduate degree, I was moved to read the articles. The first thought is that of course correlation doesn't prove causation. Also, the researcher who observed the variances at night when the sun was on the opposite side of the earth proposes that neutrinos, which zip through the whole mass of the earth like it wasn't there, fit the pattern. Rather than the neutrinos which traversed the entire earth without an interaction suddenly being able to affect a radioactive material on the opposite surface, it seems to cast some doubt that the sun was the source of the anomalies.
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#320179 - 08/27/10 01:03 AM Re: I love when the laws of physics are wrong. [Re: JohnK]
ClubNeon Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3466
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
When it is said that neutrinos don't interact with matter, it means, that neutrinos don't usually strike other atomic particles. But there are neutrino detectors set up to find those very rare occasions when collisions do occur, because interesting things seem to happen.

The moon doesn't touch the Earth, but it has an effect on tides. What if a neutrino passing near an unstable nucleus causes it break down faster?

To be sure, I'm not convinced either. But definitely want to see more, controlled testing.
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