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#355995 - 10/02/11 04:42 PM Subs ...Home theater
axiom_man Offline
devotee

Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, Cana...
room is 17w x 21Lx8H so around 2800sqft.
or 15w x 19L x 8h more like 7.5 H. plans are rough but those are the two sizes.Only thing with the wider room I will have a support post in the middle and just behind the main front seat. I can put two recliners on either side in the back on a riser so it will not interfer with viewing. Hopefully that is my projector will be placed in front and cieling mounted and 12 away. I am wanting a 120" screen. I may just say the hell ang go with a 70 LEd, just hate the ghostin crap

I want to know which would be the best setup and why. I want to spend no more than $4000 on subs. That said cheaper the better. So, here goes
2 x EP500 not sure where but on either the inside or outsides side of the frontsspeakers and just under the screen. I am about 11 / 12 ft away from the screen.

2 x SVS Plus 12 or 13's not sure yet at $1200 or $2000 each
or one EP 800 up front and centered
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#355998 - 10/02/11 05:10 PM Re: Subs ...Home theater [Re: axiom_man]
nickbuol Offline
axiomite

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 5341
Loc: Marion, IA
Wow. I wish I had that cash to spend on subs.

Ideal sub placement is so much more than looking nice. Maybe the location(s) that get you the best results are in completely useless locations, like 6 feet from the left wall, and right in the location that you want to put a door.

Of course, more than 1 sub will help smooth out the bass, thus the reasoning that I am assuming you are looking at a couple of subs instead of just one, especially since any of the subs you mention will work great by themselves in that room for pure "power".

I've never compared these two subs (I own an SVS sub myself, but mainly because the Axiom subs years back weren't their strong point).

I am working (or should be working instead of surfing) on my approx. 14 foot wide, 24 foot long, 8 foot tall theater room and I already know that I am going to want a second sub.

I plan to put one up front behind my acoustically transparent screen/wall since my wife hates the cylindrical SVS sub I have, and then I am running another cable to a side wall location. I am fairly limited on placement options once I get into the room due to seating and walkway needs, so the best aesthetic and functional location will be the wall opposite the door coming into the room. I am hoping that just by adding the second sub and tweaking the placement of both a little bit, that I will get better overall bass response.

I like the idea, and have seen several "build threads" at AVS where people put 2 subs up front to have all of the "punch" and main sound come from the screen area. It clearly is working for them, even if it may be "less than ideal". As for placement, that really is something hard to tell until you get them connected up. You may find that the subs outside the main fronts sounds best for you (be careful of getting too close to corners) or inside is better. It sounds like you are looking for symmetry and looks, which is fine, but the layout of the room and sound treatments will become even more key.

So after all of this rambling, I can't help you out much. If I had to pick (or eliminate) something, I would pick one of the first two choices. All of the subs are really great, but having more than one should yield better quality throughout the entire room.

Oh, and just remember this. LED TVs are pretty much LCD TVs with a different lighting mechanism. They are said to run cooler, and have more picture "pop" and contrast, but that is from the light source. So if you see ghosting on LCD systems now, they could show up in that LED LCD you may look at later. (Some people can't see LCD ghosting, just like some people can't see DLP rainbows.)


Edited by nickbuol (10/02/11 05:17 PM)
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#355999 - 10/02/11 05:17 PM Re: Subs ...Home theater [Re: nickbuol]
axiom_man Offline
devotee

Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, Cana...
thanks,
yeh. that's what I thought, but was wondering where the EP800 already hase two drivers and it being centred if it would be ok.
I am thinking two EP500 's though.

I am even thinking of doing what I thought of doing years ago, but was told it was nuts. But, now I see Ian made the suggestion. I am going to run a EP125 to each QS8 and go line in/ out to the QS8. so I will have one EP125 for each QS*, just for a little more uhmph. But not overkill and this will also be specific for each QS8
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Pioneer sc-1525
M80 HG Cherry

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#356000 - 10/02/11 05:19 PM Re: Subs ...Home theater [Re: nickbuol]
bdpf Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 769
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Nothing much to add to what Nick said except that the sub is hardest speaker to place in order to have very good results and can't usually be determined before experimenting. Unfortunately, many of us don't have the flexibility to place it where it sounds best and need to settle for less frown
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M80s/VP180/QS8s/EP600/AVR-890
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#356003 - 10/02/11 05:59 PM Re: Subs ...Home theater [Re: bdpf]
gtpsuper Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 80
Though I would chime in been awhile since I've posted. Just received the new Axiom news letter about the price increases and thought i'd do a post today. I like my Axiom speakers, but their subs are nowhere near a good value. The SVS PB12+ is a superior sub compared to the EP600($1349 vs $1860) The new SVS PB12 NSD offers similar performance to the EP 500 for close to half the price of the EP 500. If you want a single sub like EP800 go with the SVS Ultra or Seaton Submersive or JTR Capitvator instead. You could get 2 HSU VTF 15H subs for just a a hundred more than a single EP600.

It just got me thinking because I was planning on buying the Axiom 50s or 60s this week, but no now due to the price increases. If other companies can offer such great performance for half the price compared to Axiom, plus they have heavier brace cabinets, beefier drivers, more powerful amps, why does Axiom charge so much??? I recently checked out a review from a few years ago featuring the Axiom EP350, SVS 25-31 PCi and HSU VTF 3.3 the Axiom didn't win anything. SVS and HSU continue to offer better and better performance every other year or so. Sometimes each year. Yet Axiom subs haven't changed in what close to 10 years with no significant improvement. V.3 brought what magnetic grills thats it.

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#356010 - 10/02/11 07:16 PM Re: Subs ...Home theater [Re: gtpsuper]
nickbuol Offline
axiomite

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 5341
Loc: Marion, IA
A little misinformation there. I mean, 10 years ago, there were hardly any Axiom subs out there, and yes, they were pretty weak (thus my SVS purchase about 7 years ago). I haven't price compared them with others, but I have heard great things about the larger Axioms subs. Best boom for the buck, don't know. Maybe not. But a quality sub in their top models, absolutely.

SVS and HSU are both GREAT sub makers for sure. Nothing wrong with picking up one of their subs.

As for the sub debate impacting one's decision to buy M50s or M60s, or that because they are having a price increase is just silly. At least they tell people ahead of time, and they will STILL be some of the most solid, best performing speakers for what has historically been quoted at about half the price of the closest competition.
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2-M60s, VP180, 8-M3s, SVS 20-39PCi, DIY Sub, 8-Shakers, JVC RS45, Anthem MRX-1120

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#356015 - 10/02/11 07:55 PM Re: Subs ...Home theater [Re: nickbuol]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4116
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Audioholics recently reviewed the new SVS PB13 Ultra with the sledge amps and consider it pretty much perfectly engineered for a commercial sub. The review has an abundance independent measurements (not from SVS) to back it up. I have never seen a product review that did this thorough of a job.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/svs-pb13


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#356017 - 10/02/11 08:02 PM Re: Subs ...Home theater [Re: BlueJays1]
nickbuol Offline
axiomite

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 5341
Loc: Marion, IA
Yeah, I think that SVS has a good corner on the great value/performance sub market, and their speakers are "pretty good" but not great. Axiom has a great value/performance edge for everything but their subs had been a little weak. Not they have some great subs, but their is the debate of value vs other companies that used to specialize in just subs.
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2-M60s, VP180, 8-M3s, SVS 20-39PCi, DIY Sub, 8-Shakers, JVC RS45, Anthem MRX-1120

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#356019 - 10/02/11 08:07 PM Re: Subs ...Home theater [Re: nickbuol]
gtpsuper Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 80
Well with the price increases Axiom isn't the best bang for the buck like they use to be. And believe me i'm not an Axiom hater like what you find on Audioholics, check out my post on AVS (gtpsuper24) i've recommended Axioms quite a bit, and defended Axiom too. I'm not buying the Axiom competes with speakers that cost double or triple the price. Axiom is a ID company they need to compete with Aperion, HSU, SVS, Elemental Designs, not B&M stores. Since I've last purchased my Axioms each model from the M22 on up has gone up at least $100 if not more in some others. The Arx A3 towers are $499 a pair offer better cabinets, XBL2 5.5" woofers and neo ribbon tweeters and one user compared it to the M60 and the Arx won out. What about ED's A6T tower for $500 tweeter with 3 6.5" woofers and a cabinet made right here in the USA with much more internal bracing (M50 38lbs) (A6T 51lbs)I guess when I think about it, what am I paying $800 dollars for the M50s, just two drives and a basic hollow cabinet. And I bet anything the A6T sounds "simiarlly" good at $250 cheaper. I remember paying $417 or so for my M22s and now their almost $500. I guess I think if your going to up prices at least include a signifcant performance improvment. I was really planning of upgrading to Axioms higher end speakers and couldn't wait for the VP160, but the price increases just struck a nerve I guess. Sorry for the rant.


Edited by gtpsuper (10/02/11 08:08 PM)

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#356021 - 10/02/11 08:59 PM Re: Subs ...Home theater [Re: gtpsuper]
nickbuol Offline
axiomite

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 5341
Loc: Marion, IA
Hey, I'm with you that price increases suck. But the other companies that you are comparing them to have had their price increases as well. Heck my SVS was purchased for $521 shipped to my door, but before they stopped making it, they were selling it for $649 PLUS shipping. And it had a shorter product run than the Axiom products that you mentioned have gone up $100. That was with no real (if any) design improvement at all.

Axioms aren't for everyone, one person might love that ribbon speaker, I'm not a fan. Another might like the fact that the Axioms are known for a very flat response across all of the important frequency ranges, vs. being "hot" in certain other ranged. For example, a professional review of the eD A6T that you mention, says that it has a significant dip in the "important mids" and lacks good detail there.

Sure, the Axioms aren't sexy looking. But I too would rather have the good vinyl wrapped speaker (since I am not going to fork out the money for solid wood) than a painted eD speaker. Others like the painted look on a more rounded cabinet (I like the rounded look too. Axiom has another thread here about 'wish list' or 'what should Axiom do next' as they solicit feedback from us all to cater to the market wants/desires.)

So you no longer think that Axioms are a value, many others would disagree. Even today, Axiom products that have been around for years are still winning awards. They've got the most important features for me... Price and performance. I figure that if I can start with a speaker that isn't already "colored" in certain frequency ranges, then I have a better chance of good sound in my home. If I start with something with, say, the above mentioned big dip in the mid-range, then I have to figure out how to combat that. Sort of like the Bose montage of "all highs, all lows, must be Bose".

As for SVS and HSU for speakers, I wouldn't want to buy main channels from subwoofer companies. eD is a small operation that is just up and coming. I have been to their place in Newton, IA. I used to live less than 30 minutes from there, and I picked a day that I was in Newton playing paintball to set up a quick visit. They guys are great enthusiasts for sure. This was a couple of years ago, but they really had a passion to break into the speaker market. They are sort of the young contender to the market. They've got some skills, but don't have the vast experience yet.

If you look at the following list of "Best Speakers Under $500", Axiom is right there with the best bookshelf speaker. But the list is full of different companies, as one would expect.

Again, are Axioms the best performing, coolest looking, or least expensive speaker out there? Heck no. But they have a really good mix. If the OP is wondering about subwoofers, then he isn't going to go wrong with any of the models he is looking at. Just do a Google search and see what professionals have to say. You know, the ones with dedicated listening rooms and testing equipment, not people that may be easily swayed by personal preferences, brand loyalty, or whatever.
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2-M60s, VP180, 8-M3s, SVS 20-39PCi, DIY Sub, 8-Shakers, JVC RS45, Anthem MRX-1120

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