Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Reading the M60 vs. M80 Graphs

Trying to decide between Paradigm Studio 60 and the M80 or M60.
but, at $1800 not sure the Paradigms are that much better.

Had the 80's although ver. 1 is the sound much better than version one.

The question I have is if I have a SVS sub and cut off at 80hz will I see any difference between the 60 and 80's namelt $500 worth.

Right now the plan is two systems, one in living room mainly music or tv. It will only be 2ch and sub

I have a theatre room and right now I am into bookshelfs and dual subs. I really can't see the difference, I am LFE at 80hz. Only thing I am thinking is adding a small sub to each surround. This will just be a small 8" sub using the Line in/outs. Just to give those QS8's a little balls. Alan also said this might be a good thing. Not there for room shattering sound, just some extra bottom.

I have Pioneer VSX-1156 basically a Elite SC-30. I amd going to use a Emotiva XPA-3 for the front three and the amp for the surrounds. Two SVS Ultra's. Right now I have three MK 750's for the front three. But, they are wattage draws so added the XPA.

Upstairs I want to setup a Emotiva XPA-2. Plan on a Martin-Logan Depth and not sure but, either the 60's or 80's or the Studio 60's

oh, must add movie rooom 15 x 19 x 8
upstairs is 15 x 19 x 8 unless u include the dining room and kitchen then 34 x 24 with the living room dining room

I have 80s and I like the 60's too. But if I had all that firepower I would get the 80s.

Troy, it's unlikely that you'd have a significant audible difference between the M60 and M80 with the SVS sub handling the bass below 80Hz. Both use the same two 6 1/2" woofers, and the larger M80 enclosure allows for tuning it a few Hz lower, but this wouldn't be meaningful with the sub handling that area anyway. The other difference is that the M80 uses dual mid-range drivers and tweeters and this would allow for a higher and cleaner maximum output level, but unless you were listening at an extremely loud level this also wouldn't be meaningful to you.

I don't recall Alan making a comment supporting putting a small sub on each surround. If you mean that you'd connect the receiver surround pre-outs to those subs, then it would be almost meaningless, since there would be an 80Hz or whatever crossover which would prevent the "surround sub" from doing much. In any case, the surround bass being handled by your main sub should be entirely satisfactory.

I'll also add that using only a 2.1 setup for a mainly music system is an unnecessary limitation on your enjoyment of that music. Using a mode such as DPLII to extract the surround ambience mixed into two channel material(there was no place else to put it)and direct it to the surrounds where it belongs, is a very significant improvement in realism.

Hi John
the 2.1 isn't for any type of digital processing. Just 2 ch stereo it is in the living room and not putting speakers anywhere else. Just to watch TSN breakfast time and occassional sitcom. may even get into LP's. Subs just for a little more bottom umph. Not even sure yet I want a sub upstairs ...just like to try that 3 x 8 driver lol
let me see if I can find that comment about the subs.
nope it would be left.surr the line in on a small 8" sub under the qs8 then line out to the qs8. right surr. to the line in on a 8" sub below the right qs8 and same as the two rear surrounds.
But, now that I think about it pointless if I have all set to small. Cut-off is at 80hz anyways and being small nothing below 80hz will go down the line to the sub anyways that the qs8's can't handle.
Unless I set all speakers to large and set the settings to Main + LFE.
I like the bookshelfs and sub though, may have to rethink this theatre setup. My daughter may inherit a awesome setup. I should of said no to the Pioneer and went with the Denon replacement.
one thing for sure is the towers upstairs and the emo amp and stereo processor.

I am 11 - 12 ft from my screen. room is 15 ft wide. I have 7ft behind me.
I need 7 speakers running off a emo amp for the front three. Either the 4 rears run off a A/R or I get 4 UPA1's.
I am thinking a pre/pro the XPA-3 and 4 UPA's not sure of the pre/pro though.
or Denon 4311 or 3312 and the XPA-3 for the fronts. The Denon will run the rears.
75% movies 25% music
Budget will be if I have to renew the speakers and reciever $5k
speakers $3k for the fronts and $1500 rears.
have the subs. Where or what would I get ,if I go reciever it has to be Denon though and Emotiva

I have a similar setup to what you are thinking about:

M80's front
VP180 Center
6X QS8's
2X SVS Ultra

Denon 4311
Emotiva XPA-3 for the front three.

After discussing this setup with SVS, I finally setup Xover of front three to 60Hz and Xover of surrounds to 80Hz. To me, this sounds pleasing and the SVS meshes very well with the speakers.

I use 40% PS3, 40% movies, 20% music.

I would highly recommend the Denon 4311 for the Audessy setup. My system sounds unbelievable under Audessy.


The QS8's are very capable, I would not have a sub on the QS8's. Audyssy sets the QS8 V3 at a xover of 60Hz, and the QS8 V2 to 80Hz. I override that and standardise them at 80Hz.

Troy, i have a B&W CM1'S in my bedroom. They are similar in design to the Axiom M3's.. I also have a 8" JBL sub in my bedroom as well.. the 8" sub with the bookshelf speakers sound REALLY good. Also since my bedroom isn't huge the 8" sub is more than enough for that room...


In the family room, i have M60's +EP600+ another JBL 8" sub. i have the 600 crossed over at 80 or 100hz, don't really remember right now. I also have the M60's set to large... I have outboard amps as well, so the M60's get all the clean power they can handle..

Honestly, my bedroom setup sounds as good as the family room setup, due to the smaller space. The bedroom speakers are powered by a Marantz MM9000 @135W X5. However, i am only using 3 channels of that amp L/R/C.

you can see my sig to see what I have.

Hi thanks guy

Tariq I think you got what I want.

jUst not sure if I have the SVS subs if I need M80's, I think the M60's I shouldn't notice any difference other than ear shattering volume levels.
I look at the graphs and it seems the M60 is smoother. The only thing I see is it drops off faster than the M80's on the bottom end. But if I have dual SVS's then if they were set Xover at 80hz I shouldn't be able to even tell the difference.

SIrQuack ..... I thought you had M80's and endd up getting M60's and found they were every bit as good at one time.

OK so, has anyone heard the Paradigm Studio 60's. I am thinking they sound very close. However at $1800 I can get real wood Cherry with the M60

My first Axiom speakers were 60's in mansfield beach, I upgraded to 80's a few years after that, I do miss my 60's though. I've always heard the Studio series sound very similar to Axiom speakers, they are based on the same science done at the NRC many years ago. I guess it comes down to price, customer service, looks, etc.

Hi axiom man,

I think you might have misunderstood me; I would not have suggested your adding subwoofers to the QS8 surround channels. It would be pointless, as your LFE main subwoofer channel will handle all the deepest bass.

As to the Paradigm Studio 60s, they certainly aren't "better". They will likely have a slightly different tonal signature and the usual Paradigm bass hump, which will make them sound "warmer" at first, then that "warm" hump will get annoying with long-term listening. The Axiom M60s and M80s are more neutral through that bass region and are free of that "warm" coloration.

Regards,
Alan

thanks for chipping in Alan ...
and I will find that post, and yeh I may have read it wrong. It was about some one thinking the bottom end of the QS8 would be nice if they went a little lower. I think they drop off at 100 hz, but can't look right now. He also mentioned something else. I thought it was you who said you could always set up a little sub under each to give it a tad more bottom end.
Problem is if there is a boom in the rear it would be nice to hear boom in the rear not Bo from the rear and oommm from the from subs. Yeh, I know uni directional, but the 100 - 60 hz still can be heard coming from the front. This way the 8" sub will take the 100 - 30 hz out of the right rear and right back rears and play it, because it will be line fed threw the left channel rear/back speaker wire. and filtered to the qs8's.

yes, I listened to the Paradigm's again last night and sometimes it felt the bass was a little open.

now just need to decide for stereo, music almost 90% what I want M60 or M80's
really looking at he graphs the M80's other than going a tad more bottom end and playing louder the M60's should be ok specially if I put a sub in the mix.
not sure yet what I want in the theatre room, still like the bookshelf and sub combo. Just really not sure why I need towers when running two subs.

now if I can get High Gloss Cherry Vinyl I'd be soo happy.

Troy, it's unclear what "filtered to the QS8s" refers to, since there would be none on the QS8s.

My Q's are crossed over at 90hz, and I get plenty of impact from them, and the bass sent to the 3 subs fill the room.

ah ha
ok, I will try to explain. I was just looking at the back of the Axiom subs. Ok, there used to be High Level inputs and outputs. Now they just have high level in. Don't understand that, if your running speaker wires to the HL in then it terminates.
anyways, there are on some sub or older ones a High pass filter.
before the LFE jack. You would run your front speaker wires to the R/L line level input of the sub. It would filter the cutoff frequencies ..( 80hz and below ) and then on the output side you would continue the speaker wire run to the speaker and the sub would pass the 80hz and up to the speaker.

with my last Denon I can set the individual speakers to large/small. Also, set the filter cutoff to each seperately. So what I am thinking is setting the LFE to the front three to LFE + Mains, and set the surrounds to large, with no cut off in the frequency. There fore I will use my sub and 8" under each raer channel run te speaker wire to the sub, using the high pass filter on the sub, ste the cut off to 90hz, then pass it to the speaker. So, the sub will take 90hz and down and pass the remainder to the speaker 90hz and up. So, when I have say some bottom end coming to the left rear, the bottom end will appear to come from the rear left. This way my front subs will be doing nothing. There's not a lot of volume low end to the rear channels anyways, but it will allow the rear to have full control from 30hz and up individually.
My feeling is that if say a door slams or something low frequency happens to the left side that the bottom end shouldn't fill the room or appear to come from the front. I know low frequencies are not directional, but if the front sub is pushing out a 80 signal I am going to hear it from the front and it will appear that even though the door closes from the back side I get the higher frequencies from the rear, but the bottom boom part seems to fill the room. SO, this way if that door closes and then the front subs won't play any sound, but the rear left will and it will get the full frequency range and the sub will play the 80hz down and the low end will fill the room from that side. It will not b at a high volume, so will most likely dissperse before it gets a chance to fill the room.
Kinda like throwing a rubber baseball, if I throw it from the front subs hard it is going to bounce around loud. Or maybe a softer throw, and if I threw the ball from the left rear, it is not so pwerful so the ball may go as far as hitting me in the head from my back. If there's a big explosion, well then the front subs are going to over power the rears anyways and you want that room to fill and rumble.

Sir ..
you have three subs ??? would two be up front complimenting the front three and one be in the rear of the room ?

kind of the same situation I am after, except I am breaking it down a bit more .

Maybe I will go with four subs. Two up front and two in each rear where the left surround rear and left back rear would share a EP175.
Well, ok I cannot as Axiom subs don't have the filter anymore.

Doesn't really matter I just have to figure out what I want now M60's or M80's ....
for 2ch music or 2.1 room is open concept about 34 x 24 if include the kitchen and dining.

Movie room I am just up in arm as I don't know what I like.
I love the book shelves, but then I am not sure they are going to fill a 15 x 21 x 8 ft room sufficiently.
I have the M&K 750, but am going to either go with the M&K 950's or Axiom Mxx.
For upstairs the Mxx are either Vinyl or veneer and in the movie room they will be black.
I don't want to waste money now, but need something now so, if I knew it would be easy choice. I can get the blacks now and order the venner next year. This is what I want to do. But, if I order the venner in M60 and find I really need M80's then I am out alot of money. On the other hand if I order the M60 in black, and they are good enough I can move them into the movie room next year and order the veneer's. case closed.
I really would like to know if I had the M60's and M80's side by side with dual EP500's would I notice any difference ?

I am also, curious if the M80's with out a sub would be sufficient to fill the bottom end in 2ch music in my living room area.

the other thing is I can order the M60'sin black give them a listen, but how much would shipping be to return? because, then that means the M80's just cost me more for the return shipping? and I don't want to spend out $3600 to try out speakers lol

You're comments don't seem to match that of a professional reviewer of Soundstage Magazine that favorably compared Paradigm Monitor 11's to the Axiom M80v3's.

http://www.soundstagexperience.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=280

He also said the VP180 suffered off-axis frequency response issues while the Paradigm center did NOT.

The Monitor series is a lower end series than their Studio series which means the Studio's would really trounce the Axioms.

I auditioned Studio 100's(V4-5?) a couple of years ago and found them very similar to the M80s(V2) in detail, bass extension, clarity and imaging. The Monitor 11's I auditioned weren't comparable to the M80's imo.

But a professional reviewer said so!

Going back to the OP, I would suggest the M60's over the M80's because of the sub you are using. The biggest difference between the 80's and 60's as he mentioned is bass extension and max spl. I've never heard the Studio line of Paradigm, but the Axiom's are certainly better than the Monitor line (at least when I bought my M60's and compared the brands a few years ago).

Old story now, I auditioned my M60s side by side against my Buddies' Studios. We did our best to A/B them at the same volumes using my db meter. Switching wasn't seamless so the best we could do was try to trick each other as to which was playing when.

Neither of us are professional reviewers and we were inexperienced in critical listening. However, we both agreed by the end that we could not 'confidently' tell the difference between the two. We both agreed that strictly by our our inability to confidently pick out which speaker was which, that the Axioms were probably the better deal for the dollar, sound wise. However, did that make the Axioms necessarily the best choice? No. Not for both of us.

He kept the Paradigms and I kept the Axioms. He preferred the look and the more luxurious finish for his more modern apartment. I kept the Axioms as our house is much more laid back in style and the less luxurious look was not a concern. We were both extremely happy with our purchases.

My point, I don't pretend to be a "professional reviewer", I will not try to tell you that I am certain one is better than the other, because I was unable to even decide for myself... I just thought I'd add my personal experience into the thread for those who might find it interesting.

After all, if I'm making any point at all, it's that most of us, due to skill and circumstance, can only listen subjectively at best and finally, that in the end, the only item of importance is that your happy with your final choice.

I kinda have two similar set ups. I have a large great room (28X32) with vaulted ceiling height of 22’. I have a 2.1 set up in this room for the casual TV watching and music. At one time I had M80’s in this room and they worked very well, but lower base was lacking so I put an EP 600 in this room and I rather like the combination. I’m not sure if M60’s would cut in this particular room, but suspect they would. I use Opus 2-2’s in this room now with the EP600. My HT is pretty small, 12X18. I had M80’s in this room and recently moved to M60’s. I can’t tell much difference in spl output, because I couldn’t ever crank it anyway. The M60’s will still play much louder than my hearing can tolerate. I also have some M22’s that I messed around with a bit in this room as mains. I found the M22’s to be lacking. They did just fine paired together as a center channel though. Now I am using them as width channel speakers. My current arrangement in the HT is M60s, a VP160, a VP150, two EP500’s and six QS-8’s (Rear and Side Surrounds and Heights). Probably way too much speaker and I’m still messing around with the height and width channels trying to figure out the Denon 4311. So rambling aside, I think M60’s would be more than adequate for your HT paired with a good sub or two. They’d probably be just fine for your two channel rig too. I have not heard the latest rev of Paradigm Studios so I can’t comment on them. I have listened to Studio 100’s about five years ago and found them to be quite similar to M80’s. A bit more laid back than the M80Ti’s, but close. I think the M60V3’s would be a closer comparison. Any of the V3's would probably be closer as they are somewhat smoother at the high end freq than the Ti's.