Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Just demo-ed m60s: OK but need sub! What now?

Just demo-ed the m60s at one of the volunteer's place. It was good, clean but couldn't quite put the finger at what I was missing until the sub got turned on. Then it was WOW.

It was then that I realized why I just kept going 'round in circles. Every time I'm sure I'm getting the towers, I listen to either the towers or the bookshelves with a sub and think "I can't live without one (a sub)."

Admittedly, I like the extra punch to my music and although I like the clean, detailed and openness of the m60s I realize that no matter how what I would always feel a tinge bit of dissatisfaction without a sub to go with it.
I don't want to be feeling that with a pair of 800-dollar speakers!

I'm thinking, maybe I need to reevaluate what my sound priorities are again. I realized few things after the demo session:

1. I probably will never use these great speakers at full volume in my 15x13x9 bedroom
2. I can't live without the bottom end-A sub
3. I need to draw the line on what I'm willing to spend ultimately right now (as in till end of this year) : m60s plus a good sub is really not the amount of money I want to spend on speakers right now

So basically, I'm back at square one. Thinking of getting m22s with a really good sub so I can get more bass than just the m60s.

My question:

1. $800 m60s + $ 200 sub= $1000
2. $560 m22s + $400 better sub= $980
3. Between 1 and 2 which is a better idea? (Now that I know I want a sub and don't want to wait a long time to get a good one (money money money).)
5. The difference between a $200 sub and a $400 one

Here it is again: HELP!

Hello rotipom

Very interesting question! There are very few full range speakers out there, and real full rangers are very expensive! Considering the size of your room, I think a very nice subwoofer would go very well with a pair of M22s and if you're able to integrate these speakers, you'll have a very good approximation of a great pair of full range speakers.

well if it were me id probbly go with the M22 and better sub. a 200 dollar sub might be alright, but a 400 dollar one might be alot better.

I have the M80's and wish i had the money for a good sub, the 80's dont lack in the bass department at all, but with most songs i wish i had a little more kick in the gut feeling, but without the boominess. i think that even with the best speakers (there are exceptions) a sub is needed, definetly for movies and for music too if you like real oomph.

i'd either get M60's or M80's and then save for a good sub. Don't spend less than $600 on a sub to go with such beautiful speakrs. A 200 sub on M60's would be like painting a ferrari pink

Yeah, i agree that if you were willing to save and get the sub later on, the 60 or 80's AND a decent sub would be a killer setup. your room isint monstorous though so if you dont usually play it too loud you might be just fine with the 22's.

just remember, the M22's are a more forward sounding speaker compared to the M60's and M80's. They're also less dynamic.

I tend to be a 'save for the best' kind of guy rather than settle for less. But if you really only have 1k, then get M22's and a good sub, or M3's (if you prefer a laid back sound) and a good sub.

Another point to add that you just reminded me of with your reply:

If I ever were to have a larger room than mine right now which would warrant floorstanders and a sub it would mean that I would be moving my set out to the living area which means that it would be a complete HT setup (its just music for my bedroom right now, the tv is in the living room) which means that I would need to (at that point) add to my existing system (hypothetically speaking that I buy the m22s) and by then investing in floorstanders and a center to complete the set would be money better spent in space of time.

Makes sense? What do you all think?

See I thought having a dynamic speaker would outweigh my need for bass (which is why I keep going back to towers) until I heard the m60s today. Having the sub on with it made me realize that I don't want to STILL feel dissatisfied after having blown $800 and two months of saving.

Also, the room size factor was something that I never seriously took into consideration until today when I found myself cranking up the volume on the m60s in the volunteer's large living room to even get it to the satisfaction level I'd like. It really made me think: do I honestly need to spend that $800 and never have it to the volume to truly appreciate its advantages over say, the m22s?

If I go with the m22s I'd definitely like something like the Hsu which is in that 400-dollar range.

I totally undrstand the m80 gripe you have right now! That was what got me thinking while listening to the m60s (with and without sub) today. I like the extra kick! I thought I wouldn't miss the sub with the m60s but I sadly I did.

If you must have your stuff right now, it clearly sounds like for you the M22ti and sub is the better option.

But...personally I'd get the M60's and keep saving, and add the STF-2 later. It'll take longer to get everything, but in the end you'll have what you REALLY want, and will never look back and wonder 'what if?'.

2 comments.

I think you made a mistake when you listened to it with a sub in the first place. It tainted your opinion of the speaker. It's like having apple pie a la mode, and then saying "I thought that I liked apple pie for desert, but it just wasn't satisfying, I'm not going to buy any more apple pie". The minute you heard the system with the sub enabled, everything else from that point on was "missing" something with it disabled. Well of course it was. If you listened to the sub by itself, you wouldn't worry about the "missing" top end of the sub, right? The REAL question about the bass in a non-sub speaker is "does the bass guitar sound like a real bass guitar at a volume proportional to the volume of the other instruments". The same applies to the other low end instruments, like drums. Whether its on stage, in the studio, or in your living room, the purpose of the main speakers is not to pound you in the chest with bass. That is always the job of the subwoofer. The mains are supposed to put sufficient volume in the mid - upper bass region to fill in between the midrange speakers and the subwoofers. Just food for thought.

Second point. You can adjust the position of M60s in such a way that the room surfaces reinforce the bass response. In effect, you can get a little extra bass out of them by moving them just a little closer to the wall. 1/4" to 1/2" makes a big difference in my room. If you position them "incorrectly", you can enhance the bass a touch.

In addition to Michael A's comments above you may wish to contact the guy with the M60s to see if he had them set to "small" on his receiver. If so, when he turned off the sub the M60s may not have been receiving the full range of bass tones from the receiver.
I have never thought my M60s lacking in bass. One time, I went over to turn down the sub's volume knob because I thought I was hearing too much bass for a particular music recording - only to find that the sub had been switched off!

I am a new owner of the M60's and Velodyne DLS-4000($ 399 on sale now, maybe cheaper on the net). I am far from an audio expert, but I have no complaints, just the opposite. The Velodyne is cheaper than the Axiom subs, though not as pretty, maybe not the equivalent sound wise, have not heard the Axiom subs. Seems to match the M60s, VP150, and QS8s very nicely though. I use the LFE from my Yamaha 2400 and I set up using YPAO, so maybe the receiver is doing a lot of work for me.

I would say spend just $ 200 more and get what you want. Divide $ 200.00 by the number of years you plan to have the speakers. Report the "per year" number to your wife. Let me know if you are ever near Morristown, NJ you can have a listen.

We switched the front speakers over to large and turned off the sub. And while I agree that with most music, this is a great setup, I do enjoy the sub when listening to anything with a bass fiddle or music that takes advantage (to a distinct level) of those lower frequencies (Pink Floyd's P*U*L*S*E or Metallica's S&M for example).

Yet again, given rotipom's room/roommate considerations, volumes loud enough to take full advantage of the sub may not be attainable...(?)

^billy

rotipom,
You won't be moving to a smaller room in the future, so the M60's will be a good choice because of that.

You can't really crank anything up where you are, so a sub won't be of much use right now. The M22s aren't quite as robust on the lower end, so the M60s will be a good choice because of that.

In your example, you did not consider the cost of stands for the M22s. That closes the price gap to the M60s.

If you get the M22s, it appears that you may go for a less expensive sub and that may mean you will be disappointed later when you have a larger space that the sub won't be able to fill.

You do have the 2 chioces you mentioned above:
1) M60s now, good sub later
2) M22s now with STF-2 sub from HSU

As with Ravi and spiff, I like option 1 because it gets you to where you want to end up. Option 2, while it is cost-effective and will work, is a purchase that will cause you to spend more to upgrade later. And with option 2, will your really be able to pound a sub in your current situation anyhow?

I have the m22's and a HSU STF-2 and it absolutely rocks the house. Those 22's get loud enough for any sane listener without any distortion. It seems everyone is telling you to go for the m60's and save for a sub, but I know what you're feeling--you want great sound NOW! Trust me, the 22's + STF-2 will not disappoint you and should cost you $749-799 depending on whether HSU has a promotion or not. One guy said that 22's plus stands nearly equal the cost of the 60's....huh?!? Who the heck buys $400 speaker stands?!? I got mine for $40 and they're just fine. Another guy said you can place the 60's so that the angle to the walls reinforces the bass...yeah, kinda, but nothing near the clarity and depth of bass you'll get with a good sub.

Anyway, all that's to say is that if your budget is about $800, then the 22's plus a sub will make you very happy.

jtmccoy,
That is very comforting to hear. I plan on making the same purchase that you made over the summer.

*pulls hair* arrgghhh.

I am standing back for awhile to reevaluate the whole situation and think about this sum of money I am thinking of spending.

I am not getting anywhere with decisions and everytime I think I have, I get swept away by the tide again.
Its painful because I have returned the bookshelves I was auditioning before and I haven't been able to listen to any music for about a week now and it will be weeks before I can make that change.

I can see myself going with both the m22s AND the m60s at this point. But I do know that I have made one solid decision which jtmccoy had a point about, I want that thumping bass, feel free to knock it, but that's how I like it in a lot of the music I listen to, that any mere rearrangement of speakers won't satisfy.

So now it's a question of funds and how long I'm willing to wait. I do have other interests and things I want to save up for and frankly, I'm mentally exhausted!

Every post I've read of yours seems quite clear that the M22ti and a good sub is the way for you to go.

Rotipom,

I can also vouch for the M22 + good sub combo. I have my M22's paired with an SVS PB1 sub, and the combo rocks. You get the loud, clean mids and highs you'd expect from Axiom, with the thumping bass you'd expect from a good sub like SVS/HSU.

I also agonized over the M60 vs M22's. Decided to go with the M22's and the ss16 stands. 480.00 USD for the setup. I found I did need a sub to get the bass I wanted. I found a deal on a Velodyne cht10 sub ( 350.00 USD w tax). Not an HSU or SVS, but for the money sounds great. It has turned out to be a very musical system. (Dark side of the Moon sounds awesome!!!)
I have had no buyers remorse or what if's with my decision's.
My vote: go with the M22's and a better sub.
Just my .02 worth.

Okay, I have heard from quite a few posts (I am considering all my options here) including audio experts and editorials from various websites that in order to take full advantage of a sub and bookshelves (m22s) set up is to make sure the integration/crossover of the two is properly set-up. The impression I am getting is that this is not always well executed for some reason or the other.
My question is, to my understanding one needs to just make sure the mains are set to small, and the subwoofer crossover hz set to about 80-90hz and placement of sub is in the best position, is there something else I am missing out that is mandatory in making sure that the sub-satellite setup is not compromised towards the achievement of tower sound? Why does it seem like its such a complex tweaking procedure?

I don't know that it's all that complex. Setting the speakers to small keeps your reciever from sending the low end to them. This takes strain off the reciever because it doesn't have to amplify that portion of the signal. Setting the crossover has a similar effect in that it sets the upper threshold of what will go to the sub. Choosing the proper placement of the sub for your room is done because bass is very finicky and travels much better through dense material than air. Thus you can get very different levels of bass without changing your setting just by moving the sub around.

Man, I know exactly what you're going through. I spent over a month trying to sap every bit of info from the net I could find on buying speakers. Also went to every audio store in the city over and over again auditioning gear. You get nuts!!! Next you'll be obsessing over gimmicks like overpriced cables and stands. But let me tell you, once you get the 22's and the sub all hooked up with some standard Monster Cable, you'll be in heaven. I know I got the best bang for my buck. Also, don't worry so much about all that calibration stuff. Set your crossover for 80hz and that's that. The 22's will handle everything above that just fine, and your sub will rock your world on everything below that. Do mess around a little with the placement of the sub though. That does make a big difference. Usually the best place is in a corner, but it can vary a lot.

P.S. One other thing to remember is that if you do decide several years down the line that you want the 60's, Axiom has a trade-in policy where they'll put 70% of the price of your 22's ($280, if they're still in good cond) to the cost of the 60's, making them $520 instead of $800.

to jtmccoy,
I'm in the same shoe right now. I'm still working on my room (painting, wiring for light...and so on) and almost 80% done and I'm now ready for the hunt of speakers.

I spend most of the time for music about 75%...question for you. How do you feel about music with M22ti + sub compared to M60ti alone? I like M60ti but considering on the room size (12.5x14.5), i don't know if it'll work out or not . I can afford M60ti by the way...but I can live without a sub for a while since i listen to music often .

thanks in advance.

Ro, you're not missing anything. You stick the sub in the tighter corner behind the M22s and set the crossover to 80Hz. That's it. The level of the sub is then calibrated so that it's not so loud as to draw attention to itself as a separate source. No "complex tweaking" is necessary except for those who find that more enjoyable than listening.

How did you decide on the M22s? I remembered reading your posts when you were deciding what to do and you went through the exact thing.

And our rooms are pretty much the same size, 12 x 15 x 9.

Well, basically it came down to the fact that I didn't have an extra $400 to buy the 60's. Sometimes all these audiofiles on here don't seem to understand that $400 is actually a LOT of money to some of us. So anyway, I read all these rave reviews about the 22's, and I thought, well, I'll give them a whirl thinking I could return them if they didn't compare to what I had listened to at all the audio stores I had been frequenting. Well, the 22's blew away anything I heard in the stores that sold for less than $1,000.

One other thing, I only sit about 6' away from my speakers, and I've read that that's too close for the 60's to really sound good. You need at least 10'. Even with my 22's they sound a little better from about 8' away--a little fuller and more clear, though only VERY slightly (these babies still rock no matter where you're sitting). Fortunately, I'm getting married in June and my fiancee's house allows us to sit a little further away.

Oh yeah, one other thing I should warn you about Axiom speakers, and especially the 22's is that if a recording is not mixed well, you'll know it! Because the 22's are so incredibly detailed, they reveal EVERYTHING in a mix. On the other hand, when a recording is mixed well, you'll want to make love to these babies. For example, U2's Joshua Tree is rather underwhelming. So is some Led Zeppelin (they would sometimes record in their stairwell for crying out loud!). But all Dave Matthews' recordings are beautiful. So is Norah Jones--you hear every little smack of her lips and breath that she takes. I also like some techno, like Underworld, which rocks, especially with the STF-2 thumping away. Finally, jazz, especially John Coltrane, will take you to another world! Anyway, all that's to say is that when you first audition the 22's, make sure you use a good recording.

Hope that helps. If you have any other questions about my experience with Axiom, just keep asking. -J

Hey everybody,

Its been only a week since I returned the speakers I was auditioning. A month to go before I can afford the axioms. Frankly speaking, I am going nuts without music right now!!

In reply to:

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Another guy said you can place the 60's so that the angle to the walls reinforces the bass...yeah, kinda, but nothing near the clarity and depth of bass you'll get with a good sub.

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That would have been me, and I in no way meant to imply that doing so would be the same as having a sub. All I meant was that when the speakers are pushed closer to the wall, you can feel the bass in the floor a little more.