Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Seeking some amp advice for m80s

Hey guys,

I had a previous post asking for some advice on amps to power m80s in 2 channel music. There are a lot of deals for older well named amps and I know there is always a chance an older amp may give me a problem that needs to be repaired at cost vs something newer with a warranty. I've been looking at amps that cost $1,500 or less. In my search I've found Nakamichi, aragon, threshold, bryston, and emotiva to name a few. If any of you use any of these amps or heard them I would love to hear your opinions. Emotiva looks like a nice amp that is newer but I don't know if they are as good as the older amps. Could anyone share opinions on this and if they use an amp they really like?

Thanks!

You can't really beat Emotiva for dollar/performance, unless you go to a pro amp, imo. I just picked up an XPA-5 (Gen 2) on clearance as Emo is coming out with their new models, but I won't have it hooked up any time soon due to renovations so I can't give you my impressions.

I've had good luck with my Rotel amp. It's been hooked up to a set of M80s for over a decade.

http://www.rotel.com/music-systems#stereo-amplifiers

Wid's Luxman amp is still going strong too!

Good to hear Mark.

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Thanks for your advice guys. I'm curious if anyone is using a tube amp to power their m80s? Anyone use a tube amp and could offer some opinions and advice?

You might also want to check the amps from the online dealer "Outlaw Audio". I have had a couple of their multi-channel amps for a few years now and except for a couple of their models, most of them are manufactured for them by ATI amps out of California. Very good and very reliable.

Thanks! I have looked at Outlaw and I'm keeping them in mind. In my opinion there seems to be a lot of very good used amps out there for less than a outlaw 7500 so I'm doing a lot of shopping around

I've got an Emotiva MPS-1 amp and it keeps my M80's very happy. Clear and detailed. Not a sign strain to be found.
YMMV

You've got an Enemy of Randy and it works for you?

Believe it or not, Randy was the one that convinced me to go Emotiva... before he had problems, that is.



I have not experienced the issues he did.

Scott

If you can find used Music Fidelity mono's, for less than a "reasonably priced car", they are pretty amazing. I just heard a friend's system that has 8 of them 400 watts each driving a pair of B&W Nautilus's. Wow..... glad I'm not wealthy.

That brings into question on how or why would high quality amps sound different.

I get that a tube amp by it's design nature distorts the sound that it is amplifying. It is this distortion that gives it the 'warm' flavour and when the amp it overdriven gives a specific sound that some guitarists crave.

But into the solid state amps, the idea is to amplify without distorting the sound. So I ask why would a Music Fidelity mono sound any different that an Axiom ADA amp unless one of them is altering or distorting the signal that is passing through it?

I dunno. I was just blown away with his set up is all. I think quality of build and parts is probably more important than anything else. At least from a reliability standpoint anyway. He replaced Levenson amps with the MFs. Guy has more money than sense. Probably 60k or so in just speakers and amps. He has Macintosh gear too. I was feeling unworthy. But I did supply some good wine....

oh no not Emotiva again Hey guys, wow that brought back memories. yeah yeah, I had some issues with my Emo, and ended up moving to the Odyssey monos, and still have my Outlaw/Denon combo with no plans to change anytime soon. To be honest I did like the Emos but got tired of Lonn (I think that was his name) blaming the shutdown issue on Axiom's m80s dropping to like 1-2 ohms or something like that which kicked in the limiter shut down circuit. It is all coming back, lol

I think they do make good products for the money, kinda like Axiom. Good to talk to you guys again. Been so busy brewing beer, lol.

I can add that I have my M80s hooked up to Emotiva UPA-1 monoblocks (I also own an XPA-5) and I am very happy with the results. I have and use a multitude of sources (vinyl, PC Hi-Rez, CD, SACD, BluRay Audio even a tape deck LOL) for both music and movies with very pleasant (for my ears) sound.

And while we're being honest, If I had come along six months later than I did and read about the issues Randy was having, I most likely would have gone the Outlaw or Odyssey route.
I did have an issue with one of the 7 amps - sounded like sizzling bacon or a lit firecracker fuse - but the Emo folks sent me a new one and all was good from there on out.

For many years now i've heard nothing but good things about Odyssey.
Almost went down that path myself many years ago.

Opted for an Anthem MCA 30 and am eyeballing a Parasound Halo A21 for the main floor system. Will move the Anthem to the HT room to power the M60s and VP150 (or likely a future VP160).

I'm using an Odyssey Khartago SE with an Odyssey Candela tube preamp with a pair of M100s. Sounds GREAT.

Matt, not to start a discussion which could wake this place up, but my experience with tube amps is that they produce excellent sound quality. If you audition a good tube amp, or even a modest tube amp like Monoprice's $150 effort, you might agree that the difference is not "distortion." To my ears, tubes sound more "you are there," more like real life. It may be that the tube sound does not add "sweetness" as much as solid state amps miss it.

Personally, I think that tubes in the signal path improve sound quality. [Don't know about tube buffer stages]

If you put on an Oscilloscope and capture what is going in vs what is coming out, there is a difference beyond just amplification.

Distortion (Electronics). to reproduce or amplify (a signal) inaccurately by changing the frequencies or unequally changing the delay or amplitude of the components of the output wave.

This is not saying it is a bad thing, but non the less what is coming out of the amp is not exactly what was recorded. Some will say that many of the axiom speakers they feel distort the sound that they are use to hearing compared to other speakers. And my point giving was that many of the electric guitar players use a tube amp to get that overdriven distortion sound that is what they are looking for.

I have not had the privilege to sit down and listen critically to a tube amp or tube pre/SS-amp setup. If I had more money it would be something that I would surely do. I think of it as something like peoples preference between digital recordings and analog vinyl or real to real tape.

2 ears and a brain, the most incredible audio analyzer in the universe.

This generally makes people angry to read, but here goes:

When anyone touts how an amplifier sounds better than other amplifiers, and does so based on sighted tests, it is more than 2 ears and a brain. One's eyes are playing a major part of the test. Floyd E. Toole has done extensive research in this matter, and The Audio Critic has done so as well.

Hundreds of blind tests have been done on tube amps versus solid state amps for decades, and there has never been a properly run test in which the test subjects could hear these differences under blind tests with one exception: A tube amp with a non linear response curve will sound different from a solid state amp with a linear response curve.

A non linear response curve has a comparable effect that an equalizer has on a system.

I'm not angry. I have 2 ears and a brain, no oscilliscope. I don't watch the tubes glow, I tend to look at the fireplace.

The sound of live performance is the gold standard. Some recordings are certainly far better than others. No type of amplifier will transform a poor recording into a verisimilitude of a live performance. But, I have found excellent recordings which come close when played through my 5wpc SET tube amp and Axiom speakers (or Axiom made speakers like the Michauras).

Now, such recordings when played through some excellent solid state amplifiers (Odyssey, Yamaha M80 first 30 watts in pure class A, Integra M504) also sound wonderful, just a subtle bit less so, in my opinion.

On the other hand, M100s and the Odyssey Khartago SE, and tube preamap, and Thiel CS3.6s and the Integra M504 have also lit me up pretty good.

Your 2 ears and brain may come to a different conclusion.

Bottom line, joy from music!

I've stated this before, after the novelty wore off with my tubes, I came to the conclusion that I don't really hear any difference in my Tube Amp vs SS - but that is just me.

In fact I changed out the whole complement of 10 OEM tubes with a different brand & heard no appreciable difference. According to all of the tube experts out there, I should have. I was was expecting quite a change in sound signature but it didn't happen in my system or my ears. Changed back to the OEMs & I'm storing the new ones until the OEMs eventually fail.

Having said all that, I really do luv the imposing presence of the Tube Amp in my room - it really looks cool (especially when glowing in the dark). I highly recommend dabbling in this facet of this pastime for music listening...

TAM

So long as its fun, thats all that matters.

But seriously.... I wont start.

Joy from music is a good thing. Telling people one amp sounds better than another, when you know which amp is in the system, has been proven time and time again under blind tests to be lacking in credibility. This does not make you a bad person. You are just espousing bad science.

Stereophile refuses to do blind tests for the same reason: They know that all their talk about "this amp has more bloom when reproducing Classic Guitar than did that amp" would be shown to be nothing more than bias.

You are biased in regards to amps. That's OK. Almost everyone is.

I have participated in over 50 blind amp tests, the first being in 1980. In EVERY test, differences well meaning audiophiles could hear when he/she knew which amp was playing disappeared when the test was blind.

On Home Theater Shack last year, an extensive blind test was done with I believe 8 listeners. In the test, one guy "got it right" 5 out of 7 times. But another "got it wrong" 5 out of 7", and at the end of the test, if one adds up the results, the guys were guessing.

I found that H.T.S. test to be quite fascinating. As to how the fellow could pick out the tone of their own equipment in that test. Must have been a certain tone they were familiar with on that brand.
Though all that matters is you are happy with your own choice, in your gear.

Exactly ... For most people, I would recommend NOT doing blind tests because this is a hobby for fun. Blind tests are work, and they are tiring.

When we did a blind speaker shootout here 9 years ago, after 2 hours of testing, the guys were exhausted. And this was with several breaks.

After 2 hours of actual A/B switching between speakers, everyone wanted to drink. I jokingly mentioned going back for more listening tests, and almost got myself seriously hurt.

The problem I had when I participated in a blind test (at Axiom a few years back) was conveying the differences in what I was hearing into words. I could definitely hear (subtle) differences between the two speakers (both were very good) but didn't know how to relay that in words.

Regardless of what anyone else believes or says about speakers, amps or any other thing in life, it's what makes you happy that really counts in the end.

OK, Craigsub ... come down to Southern California, bring your troop of evaluators, we will all close our eyes and listen to music, then we can argue over steaks and beers and listen to more music.

The classic Stereo Review amplifier test , still unchallenged(i.e., unchallenged by scientific evidence to the contrary, not simply by a stubborn refusal to face the facts).

"Stubborn refusal to face the facts," that's insulting, isn't it? You are an objectivist. That's fine, and of course, it is not insult. Insulting people with contrary views is what the holy warriors of that orthodoxy do here, you foremost among them. It is one of the reasons, this site is so dead. Instead of a discussion, people who express a different opinion are subjected to insults. So, folks either leave, or self-censor.

Let a thousand flowers bloom, John.

You should agree that audio enthusiasts disagree as to their prefernces between tube and solid state amplifiers. I prefer the sound produced from tube amplifiers because I think mine produces a more natural and realistic sound - warmer, richer, more liquid. That is, of course, subjective.

I did a quick google search and found various professional peer reviewed AES and IEEE articles about tube sound compared to solid state. They discuss the issue openly. It seems to me the matter is not as settled as you make it out to be.

Now, I am not an engineer, I am a consumer. I rely on my ears, and as to those amps I prefer, I figure the engineers who designed them did a better job than those who designed amps I like less.

I am not able to discuss differences in how amps deal with feedback, voltage spikes, transients, the effect of complex solid state circuits compared to the simple circuits of tube amps, even ordered and odd ordered harmonics, soft/hard clipping ... I cannot point to the reasons for the differences I hear. I hear them. Your graphs tell you, I do not hear them.

You must therefore deny my experience to validate your objective criteria and your belief that the objective criteria you rely on are sufficient to the task of describing the totality of audio reproduction sound quality. I suspect your criteria are not adequate to describe all the factors which contribute to sound quality.

Speaking of which, our local SoCal jazz audio get-togethers are hosted at member's homes. We get a chance to listen many systems, some are definitely high-end. This gaggle of enthusiasts almost universally prefer tube amplification.

What do we know? We don't know enough audio engineering to know our preferences are not valid.

Enjoy the music. We do.

Thanks for the read John. Interesting stuff.

2x6 I'm not sure if you are into the research\reading side of the hobby, but this book may interest you. It is mainly gear quality focused, but delves a little into setup and acoustics. I think it would be a rewarding read for you. I read it over Christmas break. If you like it there is an uber version called the Complete guide to high end audio.

http://www.amazon.com/Introductory-Guide-High-Performance-Audio-Systems/dp/0978649303/ref=pd_sim_14_1/185-1714575-1708235?ie=UTF8&dpID=51xwVIGf-dL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR106%2C160_&refRID=1XPTA2H6NRHE6J89JXWG

2x6 ... One of the aspects of performance with tube amps that has been demonstrated (using an oscilloscope as Oakville Matt mentioned) is the high levels of even order distortion.

What many don't understand is that even order distortion tends to sound pleasant to our ears. Even level distortion is also called "harmonics". When we hear an instrument, it is the harmonics that separate the instrument from another. As an example, a Sax and a guitar playing the same note sound quite different, this is because much more is going on than playing that note.

Speakers are widely known for delivering different sonics because of higher levels of distortion, but mostly because of response variations.

A properly designed amp delivers no distortion, and has a flat response curve, which is why blind tests ALWAYS take out perceived audible differences between amps.

No, I am not going to spend $20,000 flying a bunch of people to California. But I think I will buy one of those little amps and blind test it myself.

Well, Craigsub, leave your posse up there, if you like, but if you ever find yourself down here, you are welcome in my home anytime. I will play you tunes on a wonderful tube amp, and some on some solid states, and if you are not a vegetarian, I have mesquite charcoal, a Weber and what to put on it.

Make sure to close both your eyes when you listen to that little tube amp, so you conduct a proper double blind test. Let us know what you think!

Hey Serenity, don't read much about the tech, I read the usual magazines, Absolute Sound, Stereophile, Sound & Vision, I visit a couple of audio websites. Mostly, I go to audio shows, and hang with friends on Jazz Nights down here, listen to music on their systems, eat their food and drink their booze.

I let my ears do the thinking and the music do the talking.

Hey Serenity

I checked the link and was pleased to see it directed to Robert Harley's (Absolute Sound) book on high end audio. Bob did a book signing down here a few weeks ago. here is an interesting outtake from Wikipedia which mentions our favorite speaker company:

Blind tests refer to experiments where researchers can see the components under test, but not individuals undergoing the experiments. In a double-blind experiment, neither the individuals nor the researchers know who belongs to the control group and the experimental group. Only after all the data has been recorded (and in some cases, analyzed) do the researchers learn which individuals are which. A commonly used variant of this test is the ABX test. A subject is presented with two known samples (sample A, the reference, and sample B, an alternative), and one unknown sample X, for three samples total. X is randomly selected from A and B, and the subject identifies X as being either A or B. Although there is no way to prove that a certain lossy methodology is transparent,[3] a properly conducted double-blind test can prove that a lossy method is not transparent.

Scientific double-blind tests are sometimes used as part of attempts to ascertain whether certain audio components (such as expensive, exotic cables) have any subjectively perceivable effect on sound quality. Data gleaned from these double-blind tests is not accepted by some "audiophile" magazines such as Stereophile and The Absolute Sound in their evaluations of audio equipment. John Atkinson, current editor of Stereophile, stated (in a 2005 July editorial named Blind Tests & Bus Stops) that he once purchased a solid-state amplifier, the Quad 405, in 1978 after blind tests, but came to realize months later that "the magic was gone" until he replaced it with a tube amp.[4] Robert Harley of The Absolute Sound wrote, in a 2008 editorial (on Issue 183), that: "...blind listening tests fundamentally distort the listening process and are worthless in determining the audibility of a certain phenomenon."[5]

Doug Schneider, editor of the online Soundstage network, refuted this position with two editorials in 2009.[6][7] He stated: "Blind tests are at the core of the decades’ worth of research into loudspeaker design done at Canada’s National Research Council (NRC). The NRC researchers knew that for their result to be credible within the scientific community and to have the most meaningful results, they had to eliminate bias, and blind testing was the only way to do so." Many Canadian companies such as Axiom, Energy, Mirage, Paradigm, PSB and Revel use blind testing extensively in designing their loudspeakers. Many audio professionals like Sean Olive of Harman International share this view.[8]

I purchased my first Axiom speakers (M3tis) after reading Doug Schneider's review in SoundStage! His review was not based on a double blind test or the graphs (though graphs were provided). He loved them. I bought 'em, and I loved them too.

Coupling the M3s with a 5wpc SET tube amp gave me my first experience of audio nirvana. I have heard these same M3s with various solid states, and though they sounded good, they did not sound as good.

Now, I do not have a tube amp with sufficient oomph to drive my Thiel CS3.6s and they do sound great with the Integra M504 amp and have provided me with hours of music listening pleasure.

I just prefer the sound of my wee tube amp. Craigsub, maybe you had the wrong tube amp?

Just my experience. Yours may differ. I won't call you wrong if it does.

Anyone who suggests that blind tests: "fundamentally distort the listening process and are worthless in determining the audibility of a certain phenomenon" is the same sort of charlatan who promotes $1000 interconnects and $2000 speaker cables - which both Atkinson and Harley do.

I read Stereophile for entertainment, not information. Same thing with The Absolute Sound.

Neither of those magazine's writers like blind tests because their advertisers don't like blind tests.

Axiom does all its development through blind tests.

If someone loves a component, cool. If someone declares a component is superior to another component in sighted tests, and declares a blind test is not needed, or that it is "inferior" to conduct a blind test, that someone is utilizing junk science.

Very often, I close both my eyes while listening to music. Double blind.

The book I mentioned was a christmas gift. I would guess if you enjoy Stereophile and TAS you will find the book useful.

I found the book interesting in certain passages. The sub phase and amplifier power parts were of interest. I tend to focus on maximizing the performance of gear (speakers) in rooms, rather than the gear itself. I have found Toole's Sound Reproduction book quite instructive for this.

The problem I found with the mags is they seldom cover the truly important aspects of audio. The core foundations of audio are not sexy or romantic. They wont sell more magazines or any gear so they are not often talked about. But damn do they make me want more stuff!

Sometimes I close my eyes, stick fingers in both ears and shought 'lalalalalala'. it's called a quadruple blind and dumb test.

OK Matt, you got me!

I have never participated in a double blind test. It seems to me, that if there are immediately noticeable differences, a double blind (A/B) test would quickly establish which variable was more pleasing.

It also seems to me, that in the event the participants were presented with 2 closely matched variables (audio component), there may be sound quality differences which are not immediately apparent.

Sometimes, I think, it may take some time spent living with the component before its superiority, though subtle, becomes apparent.

Sorry for the fingers in my ears, lalala ...

Closing your eyes during placement of your speakers is probably a good idea for your sound stage and imaging.

A properly designed flat response power supply would be hard to distinguish from another that is of the same quality or build, regardless of price or colour.

I myself played the Oboe, Clarinet, flute, Tuba and baritone. My parents played guitar Gibson, Fender, acoustic's etc. and the average guitar amp. Peavey, fender etc. is only 30watts. So a well crafted Amp. will out power those easily and you probably would notice a difference.

Though regardless of any of this thread, glad to hear that you have found your preferred product. If the tubes glow in the dark and look good even better. Your guests will enjoy it to.
Congrats

Brendo, in the biography of every rock star it reads, "He grew up with music in the house. His PARENTS played woodwinds and brass, HE took up guitar." How YOUNG are you be so retro?!

In the 6th grade, did you wear a 3-piece suit to school?

Upstream, upstream, Brendo, you go!

Thanx Bob I'm 36
Luckily my parents were the guitar hippies.

6th grade I was still a choir boy playing instruments so occasionally, had to dress up. Nowadays just a groupie instead of in a band.

You should reconsider. I hear that oboe players get a lot of action these days.

Yeah mine were the Khartago Mono's all juiced up with extra capacitance. I think I sold them to a guy down in AZ, I wonder how they are doing.