Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M60 Ti vs v4

I have M22 and one epc 500. Now there is a pair of M60ti for 400cad. Is this a good deal? What is the improvement of M60v4? Can I use M22 as rear speaker?

Thanks.

I have M60ti's in my home theater and M60v4s as music speakers downstairs. I am totally happy with the ti's for home theater and listening to music upstairs although the v4's do seem a bit smoother for music (eg I can toe them in a bit and still get the right low/high balance while the ti's needed to point straight ahead). For home theater use the ti's are IMO a great deal and arguably might even be a tiny bit better than the v4s from dialog perspective.

re: M22s are you thinking rear surround (6 and 7 in a 7.1 system) or side surround ? Either way the answer depends a bit on how close the speakers need to be to your listening position - the closer they have to be then the more you will appreciate QS's over direct speakers like the M22s... at least that seems to be the general consensus from other people's experiences. I had to put side surrounds a couple of feet from the primary listening positions so went with QS8s.

Thanks Bridgman.

Happy to know that Ti is still good. Just wondering how to best use the m22. Listening music is more important than video. Would m60ti +ep500 better than m22+ep500?

Sadly my coming av receiver5.1 doesnt come with front pre out. So I would have to switch cables to share the front speakers. Also my NAD has A and B but no sub pre out. I may not need to switch cables. Just connect NAD B with speaker cable, then sub cable to receiver.

Any suggestion on sharing the front and sub for both music and movie?

I was using M2's and a subwoofer for music but was never totally happy with the results until I ordered the M60ti's and moved the M2's to surround duty. QS8s came later.

M22's would allow a lower cutoff than the M2s but I have never been a huge fan of sub/sat for music.

Note that this is a bit of a minority view and a lot of people (including some with a lot more audio knowledge and experience than me) are really happy with M22 or M22+sub for music.

IIRC my receiver (HK AVR 630) allows different speaker setups for each input so CD can use mains-only while DVD/BR can use mains+sub, but I don't think most AVRs allow that.

We should probably hold off and get some input from others - I ended up with a separate music system just because the acoustics in the HT area (a loft with 45 degree ceiling/walls) were so hard to manage so I'm not the best person to listen to re: using the same system for HT and music.

Hi Rock,
If you love music over your M22s, I'd be cautious about ordering an early "ti" version of the M60s. When I joined Axiom in the early 2000's, for a 10-year stint writing and testing Axiom models, I did not much like the early M60ti, compared to the M22ti, which I loved from its early versions to the later V versions.

The M60ti had an edgy brash sibilance on brasses and many vocals, especially pop vocals, much like the early version of the M80ti, which I also didn't like -- until Ian redesigned and tweaked the crossover. The M80 then became a great speaker, later in its ti version, and for succeeding models. As for the M60, it wasn't until much later versions that I came to really like the M60. I don't recall which M60 I heard that I really liked. I still have the listening report somewhere; I'll see if I can find it.

In contrast, the M22ti never had that edgy sibilance that I objected to in the early M80ti and M60ti. It was always smooth, linear, uncolored and neutral. Of course it always lacked deep bass, but a subwoofer solved that.

So perhaps you should check out the early M60s with a returnable option.

Regards,
Alan

Thanks Alan. I trust your professionalism.
My M22 is v4,with epc 500 v4,so I am always wondering if it is a good idea to go with an early version of floorstanding speaker. When it comes to an upgrade, would I get significant improvement with m60,or m80 or higher model v4?
Another question, is M3ti a good product or has the same sibilance issue?

I am not a fan of M3s or M22s with or without a sub. Alan and others, I am donning my flame suit.

Having said that, you can use your M22s for rears if you think rears will benefit you. 7.1 does not benefit me over 5.1. I should qualify that by saying I use QS8s for surrounds.

If you don't think 7.1 will benefit you, trade in your M22s towards a pair of M5HPs. I have not heard them but I have no doubt they will sound fantastic over the M22s, M3s and maybe even the older larger models like M60s and M80s.

Rock:
No, the M3ti does not have the sibilance issue, but it's not quite as smooth and uncolored as the M22.

As to seeing an improvement with larger floorstanding speakers like the M80 or M60, it really depends on how big your room is and how loud you like your music.

In my 20 x 13 x 9 ft room, I hear no advantage of the M80s, which I also have, over the M22ti and the EP500 sub.
The one limitation of the M22 is its dynamic limits. The M60 or M80 would play cleaner at high volume in a bigger room than the M22s.

As to Mojo, he'll have to do double-blind tests first; then he might modify his judgments. And so far as recommending a speaker he's never heard, that's just crazzzeee!

Alan

It is crazy the M5HP wasn't introduced in favor of the M3 and the M22 and as a result, so many have either had to offend their ears or move to M60s or M80s even though their applications didn't call for them.

Any suggestions are appreciated and enhancing my knowledge base.

My room is an open room (23x10x8) with one open side wall(7x7 and 3x3 openings at the end) and open back wall(3.5x4.5 in the middle).

That is why I feel the dynamic range is limited. The music is clear but start to distort a little bit when increasing volume too much.

Other than speaker upgrade, can I do anything to improve it other than blocking the openings (wouldn't get approval from wife without asking:))?

Placement of the M22s with stands. Should they be placed differently than floorstanding? Currently use cardas method.

My bet is you are taxing your NAD. 80W/channel isn't enough for you. Play just a single front channel and see if the distortion improves compared to 2 channels.

More sensitive speakers could do the trick or a bigger amp. Good luck finding more sensitive speakers than the M22s.

Also try crossing your sub at a higher frequency to see if it improves distortion.

I think you are correct, Mojo, about Rock taxing his speakers with just 80 watts per channel from his NAD. I drive my M22s with 175 watts per channel, and together with the EP500 sub, they play as loud as I ever want in my 2200 cu. ft room without any signs of strain or distortion. That includes momentary peaks in excess of 95 dB SPL from my listening position about 10 - 12 ft from the M22s.

I also wonder if he might be running his M22s "full range", thinking, incorrectly, like many enthusiasts, that he'll be "losing bass" if he uses a crossover with the subwoofer. In fact, using a sub with the M22s with an 80-Hz crossover greatly eases the job of the M22's woofer, transferring the bass duties to the subwoofer. He could easily overdrive the M22s at high levels if he is running them full-range.

Alan

...I must have missed where Rock said his NAD was 80w, can you point that out for this old guy?

You maybe right. Here is the specs of NAD C356BEE:
POWER AMPLIFER SECTION
MAIN IN, SPEAKER OUT
Continuous output power into 8 ohms and 4 ohms (Stereo) >80 W (at rated THD, 20 Hz-20 kHz, both channels driven)
Rated THD1 20 Hz – 20 kHz, CCIF IMD, SMPTE IMD, DIM 100<0.007 %
Clipping power >90 W (at 1 kHz 0.1 % THD)
IHF dynamic headroom - 8 ohms +2.6 dB
4 ohms +4.4 dB
IHF dynamic power - 8 ohms 145 W
4 ohms 220 W
2 ohms 290 W
Peak output current >50 A (in 1 ohm, 1 ms)
Signal-to-noise ratio >101 dB (A-weighted, ref. 1 W)>
120 dB (A-weighted, ref. 80 W)
Damping factor >100 (at 8 ohms, 50 Hz and 1 kHz)
Frequency response ±0.3 dB (ref. 20 Hz - 20 kHz)3 Hz – 70 kHz (ref. -3 dB)
Input impedance 20 kohms + 1 nF
Input sensitivity 950 mV (for 80 W in 8 ohms)
Voltage gain 29 dB
Headphone output impedance 68 ohms
Channel separation - 1 kHz >80 dB
10 kHz >70 dB

It doesn't have sub pre-out, so can't crossover and have to drive full range. It has A+B speaker, now A to M22s, B to EP500. If I set crossover on EP500 on a higher frequency, would it help? Any other suggestions?

Thanks, I was referring to how Mojo knew that was the output spec on your NAD

So the Axiom website said:

How much power does my receiver need for these speakers?

The M22s are very efficient - you can use them with any receiver or amplifier, including a tube amp.

That is why I didn't pay much attention to the amp power. Should Axiom modify its statement which is quite misleading.

What should I do now?
Thanks Alan.

The NAD doesn't have sub pre-out, so can't crossover and have to drive full range. It has A+B speaker, now A to M22s, B to EP500. If I set crossover on EP500 on a higher frequency, 80 or 100, would it help? Any other suggestions?

Hmmm, this is puzzling. Do you have a sound level meter, or an app for your smart phone (lots of free ones available)) so you can measure what sort of playback levels you are using? The M22s will normally play plenty loud in average-size rooms like yours without distortion driven by ample power amplifiers (75 to 100 watts per channel).

You may be listening at extremely loud levels that are stressing the M22s and causing the distortion you are hearing. (Some former colleagues of mine used to listen at levels I'd call "deafening", peaks in excess of 100 dB SPL, which would cause me to leave the room.)

Since you are driving the M22s full-range, then they could be distorting at such levels, in which case, larger floorstanding speakers like the M60s or M80s would play distortion-free so long as you have plenty of amplifier power to feed them.

As a rough guide to subjective loudness levels, 80 to 85 dB is "quite loud"; 90 to 95 dB is "very loud", and above 95 dB is "extremely loud". Most people are comfortable with playback levels of 80 to 85 dB with rock or classical music, with occasional peaks to 90 dB or so.
Changing the crossover on the subwoofer won't help matters for the M22s since you are driving them full-range from your Nad's amplifier output.

Alan

Hi Alan,

By the way, I am using a preamp. Would that help to offload a little bit?

Thanks.

Hi Rock,

This is getting confusing. The NAD C356BEE is an integrated amplifier with its own internal preamp. Why are you using an outboard preamp? Nad electronics are well-designed and there should be no need for an outboard preamp. The latter may be the source of the distortion. You could be overloading the line input of the NAD with the outboard preamp.
How do you control the volume level?
Alan

I tried with 3 apps to measure my normal playback level. average is below 80, peak at 85, not exceeding 90. Actually I quickly put it to full volume and it just reached 90 and couldn't reach higher. Since the app hasn't been calibrated so the result might not be accurate. I measured the level of a piano and also got the same range (average around 78, peak at 85)

Most of the time I feel comfortable to enjoy the music without any distortion. Just when I increase the volume out my comfort zone or the music gets too loud, then I feel the hi pitch sound is getting too high and narrow.

I use the OPPO amp to hub my CD and USB sources. It is directly connected to NAD main in and use OPPO to control the volume.

Not sure if OPPO DAC is better than my Marantz DAC, so this is an experiment for me to find out.

The EP500 has speaker level inputs/outputs, no?

I've been on this board a decade. For some time I appeared to be inactive. Little did any of you know I was lurking and taking notes on you all.

It isn't misleading. The average speaker efficiency is about 87dB and the M22s are north of 90dB. This means they produce the same sound pressure as an average speaker at half the power fed into the average speaker.

I would not trust the smartphone mic or a smartphone app for this application.

Like Alan said you may be saturating the NAD's input with your Oppo.

Try driving just a single speaker. If you are hearing distortion out of only a single channel, it could be the channel or the speaker.

Rock, I see that I responded to you here when you were first considering your setup. Although for the most part you decided to go in a different direction, I can repeat what I said there.

I, along with Alan and quite a few others are of the view that the M22/EP500 combination is superb for the enjoyment of music(probably about 99% of my listening). I see no good reason to consider the M60Ti. Keep in mind that the all-important mid-range is handled by two of the 5.25" drivers in the M22, compared to only one in the M60. This indicates greater mid-range dynamic capability for the M22 despite the(meaningless except in the low bass)larger M60 enclosure.

The distortion that you mention at certain levels(not exceptionally high levels from the measurements you made)might possibly be due to a defect in one M22 or one channel of the NAD, so the suggestion by Tex(Mojo)to try listening to just one M22 may be useful to check this possibility. Your NAD is rated quite conservatively at 80 watts and in good operating condition can drive the M22s to dangerously(to your hearing)loud levels.

The problem with having to drive the M22s full-range, which may contribute to the problem, indicates the unsuitability of the NAD(or any integrated amp without bass management circuitry for a sub and mains)for your setup. You make a reference to a coming "5.1 receiver" but give no details. If this means that you're getting a new multi-channel HT receiver with bass management circuitry you can relieve the M22s of the lowest bass burden by setting the crossover to 80Hz. This can't be done with the EP500 control incorrectly labeled "crossover", as it's simply a low-pass filter which rolls the sub off above the selected frequency, but which can have no effect on the connected M22s.

So, if you're getting a new receiver the M22/EP500 combination should continue to be excellent and it would be suggested that you use wide-dispersion side-surround speakers such as the QS8s for both music(using a surround mode such as DPLII to hear ambience from the surrounds where it belongs)and movies.

Hi Rock,
I agree with John K and (mostly) with Mojo. Given your playback levels and the size of the room, your Nad's 80-watts per channel should be quite capable of driving the M22s to clean loud levels without distortion.

Try bypassing the Oppo and using the Nad's own preamp/amp to drive the NAD and listen for any distortion. If the Nad has bass/treble controls, do NOT use any bass boost, which will increase power demands from the Nad amp significantly.

By the way, there are NO audible differences between modern DAC converters. Measurable differences may exist but at levels of -80 dB or greater. Those are totally inaudible to human hearing with music programming.

As to misleading statements, I do believe in buying as much power as you can afford, to eliminate the possibility of driving an under-powered amp into clipping distortion. I do not endorse the use of tiny tube amplifiers with any speakers. Those tube amps routinely generate distortion well into the audible realm (1% to 10% or more), and have many other liabilities.

I agree the dB meter apps should be calibrated. The one I use was off by almost 10 dB until it was calibrated. However, the levels you measured seem quite accurate for comfortable listening levels in a domestic environment.

Alan

Thanks everyone for the help.

I did some tests:
1. CD-preamp-amp main in: drive one channel and two. not much difference
2. CD-preamp-amp line in: getting better, more control. one channel or two, not much difference.
3. CD-amp line in: even better. can go higher volume without feeling strained.

Questions:
1. So NAD amp can handle the incoming sound well with its preamp than Oppo, correct? Would NAD soft clipping feature distort the sound so I shouldn't enable it?
2. I could try with Oppo bypass mode (need firmware upgrade). if so it is still a good hub for all of my sources?
3. If M22+EPC500 is a good combination without huge investment on high end floorstanding speakers, then next step should be upgrading the AMP. What would be the recommendation? An AMP with sub pre-out and high power (>175W)?
4. Since my main interest is music (classical and jazz), so integrated AMP still is my preference. JohnK suggested that I might look at a high-end av receiver for both music and movie. However I read some articles talking about the 2 channel amp is still better than same priced receiver. It could be also integrated with home theater system to drive only the front speakers. Is that right? Check this link just for a reference: http://www.hifihunter.com/articles/improving-stereo-performance-surround-sound-setup-part-1/
5. When it comes to the AMP, any suggestions? Yamaha A-S801B/S? NAD?

Too many questions:)

I thought 10 Watts/channel was enough for me in my 4200 cubic foot room. Then I moved to the far field and now 100 W/c is not enough. The EP600V2 is also not enough.

So what do you have right now?

Rock, I certainly didn't suggest that you consider a "high-end" receiver. A modestly-priced receiver, perhaps as little as $200-$300 if available factory refurbished, maybe $100-$200 more if new, furnishes all the quality amplification that our ears need. The linked article is another example of high-end nonsense which throws out myths which fail when put to blind listening tests.

My own listening is almost entirely classical, and as I indicated above, your biggest improvement after getting an HT receiver would be to listen to all music in surround mode, preferably with side-surround speakers such as the QS8s. Contrary to the rants in the linked article, it's listening to music only with front speakers which is "lacking" in realism.

Thanks John K. I will certainly give it a try when my Yamaha RXV381B settles at my home. I will test first the 2.1 setup side by side with NAD. As for music, never try with 5.1 on a decent setup. Since most music were recorded with two channels, did you suggest to turn on Dolby feature while listening to music?

Yes, I always use Dolby DPLII for music. When listening live at concerts the music doesn't come at us just from the front. Much of the sound arrives as reflected ambience from the sides or back. DPLII extracts this out-of-phase information from the front channels and sends it to the surrounds where it belongs. Turning the surround mode off while listening causes a sudden loss of realism as the sound image collapses toward the front.

Hi Alan,

If you have some time to review my questions that will be appreciated.

I did some tests:
1. CD-preamp-amp main in: drive one channel and two. not much difference
2. CD-preamp-amp line in: getting better, more control. one channel or two, not much difference.
3. CD-amp line in: even better. can go higher volume without feeling strained.

Questions:
1. So NAD amp can handle the incoming sound well with its preamp than Oppo, correct? Would NAD soft clipping feature distort the sound so I shouldn't enable it?
2. If M22+EPC500 is a good combination without huge investment on high end floorstanding speakers, then next step should be upgrading the AMP. What would be the recommendation? An AMP with sub pre-out and high power (>175W)?

You need one of these connected to your NAD pre-outs! Maybe you need 4 of them with each pair operating in bridged mode. Buy 2 and if they're not enough, buy two more.

https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-11497-W...price+amplifier

Soft-clipping reduces the harshness of clipping so leave it on.

I have the last great receiver Onkyo ever made. The TX-NR818. I got it for $Can750 including GST.
http://www.onkyo.ca/Products/model.php?m=TX-NR818&class=Receiver

I have M80v2 and VP150v2 for the front, 4xQS8v2, an EP600v2 in an untreated 4200ft^3 room that is open to the rest of the house via a large stairway.

I used to sit 8 feet away from the speakers on the diagonal and now I am 15 feet away from them on the diagonal.

I used to listen 20dB below reference level to movies and music. I now find myself going to 5dB below reference.

Experiment with DPLII and Neo processing. I find I like Neo on some source material. On some music I don't like either. My room is reflective enough that with well-recorded pieces it sounds amazing. When I am listening to music on surround, I usually disable the VP150.

Hi Rock,
Yes, regarding test #3 you did, I'd agree that the NAD is entirely capable of handling the incoming signal with its own preamp/amp, and better with fewer complications than using your outboard preamp.

I'd agree with John K's recommendation: an AV receiver with 100 watts per channel should be more than adequate to drive your M22's to high volume undistorted levels in your particular room. YOu can use the receiver's internal crossover adjustments to properly link your M22s to the EP500 subwoofer without having to drive the M22s "full range".

Quite a few posts back, you mentioned that you'd turned up the NAD "all the way" until it couldn't go any louder. Do NOT do that anymore with an amplifier or receiver -- you risk damaging the voice coils of the M22s tweeters/midrange drivers with a distorted "clipped" signal.

You may have already done some damage but it's hard to determine that without checking each driver in the M22s.
As Mojo suggested, leave the NAD's "soft clipping" feature on unless you hear increased distortion. To be honest, I've never seen proper tests of the Nad soft-clipping feature so I can't comment on its effectiveness.

And, like John K (and Mojo), I do most of my music listening with Dolby Pro Logic II (or the equivalent from dts). Harman/Kardon receivers also have a third music-surround mode called "Logic 7" (designed after Lexicon, which Harman owns). Logic 7 on my H/K receiver sometimes seems to add a little more image depth on good recordings than ProLogic II or dts, but the difference is slight.

Like Mojo says, if you don't like the surround effect with some recordings, just turn it off and listen in stereo. You do have to adjust the ProLogic II or dts surround settings to your own taste to get the best results.

Here is a link to an article I wrote for Axiom years ago on the fundamental flaws of stereo music listening:
http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/stereoflaw/

You can find it under "Blogs" on the Axiom website.

The enhancement in realism using 5.1 surround (or greater) for music listening with good recordings sometimes is dramatic. Other times, it's modest, but in many cases if you switch off the surround mode and go to 2-channel playback, the image collapses into a much less realistic, disappointing flat line between the speakers.

Regards,
Alan

Interesting setup to get more power out from the amps into the speakers. Need to do more research to see how it improves the sound quality.

I am learning everyday!

Thx.

Thanks again for the detailed response.

1. I am looking at a AV receiver right now. Will keep NAD soft clipping feature on.
2. I only checked the full volume with OPPO connected to NAD main in and found out that the volume was not actually very high and it just lasted for seconds. When I connected OPPO to NAD line in, then only quickly turned NAD to 2 o'clock (normally 11 o'clock) and it was much louder. Hopefully this experiment wouldn't damage the M22s(I am sweating now).
3. Read your article and it totally makes sense. Now it leaves me a question: to get the same quality of sound, would I buy a much more expensive av receiver (5 or 7 channels) than a normal integrated amp (2 channels) to reach the same level of material(money) per channel?

That is really an extra large room to handle and it is great that it has been well taken care of. Since most music sources were recorded for 2 channels, could the technologies effectively and accurately reproduce the music without generating any unnatural tones or distortion? Very curious about it.

There's no audible distortion unless I crank it 3dB above reference level. By that time it is unbearably loud!

Some material sounds unnatural with DPLII no matter how I tweak the settings. Neo sounds natural. I favor 2-channel for all well-recorded pieces. In my space, well-recorded 2-channel shines with the M80s and EP600.

I'd hate to break it to you but you won't achieve what I have in any of your spaces. The best you'll be able to do is to put speakers on your long wall.

You are lucky!

Even if I put it along the long wall, it would be too narrow of depth to make it a home theater setup. Very unfortunate:(

Wait till the housing market get crashed so I could move up to a bigger house. Hope that day would come sometime later.

You could try working with what you have. I also have a 2.1-channel set up in a 10x10x8 foot room. It sounds very different - and very good in its own way.

My listening spaces are studies in contrast. Near-field with my Audiobytes, far-field and reflective with my Axiom home theater and intimate and absorptive with my Totems.

You appreciate the gestalt behind audio. But Rock should not dismay. A unique experience lies within each room. Begin with the room. Never forget the whole transcends its parts.

Good thing I had your panels for the 2.1 room or it would sound like $h!t.

I wish I could have multiple setups. That could be very cool.

Music itself makes us happy/sad and inspired, not the room/device. Just enjoy what we have:)

As you upgrade you'll have gear available for multiple setups.

Hello all, haven't been here in a few years but found this thread interesting. I am considering the purchase of a pair of M60ti. Sold my Studio 60's due to space limitation a few years ago when I bought my condo. The living room in the Condo was just too small and I was limited to 5.1 using Paradigm bookshelves for center, mains and rears. I've now sold the Condo and am moving into a Studio apartment, I'm hoping the M60ti as the new mains, will suffice in filling the larger living area and I can go back to a 7.1 system powered with my Anthem MRX500.

Hello lucv13,

The early M60ti was kind of sibilant and harsh on female vocals and brass instruments. In double-blind tests when I worked for Axiom, I did not like them.

Later versions of the M60s got much smoother and better; in fact, before I retired from Axiom, I can recall a comment I made in double-blind listening tests at the factory: "This is a wonderful speaker."
I don't know which version of the M60 was involved in the tests, but it's been a few years since I retired, so it was likely the v3 or v4. Ian would have the listening test records on file somewhere in his office.

Regards,
Alan Lofft

Thanks Alan, as it turns out I found a deal on a pair of Studio 80s over on CAM

Hi Alan,

You mentioned that the M80ti had an edgy brash sibilance on brasses and many vocals, especially pop vocals, until Ian redesigned and tweaked the crossover. Could you please let me know which M80ti version addressed that issue?

Just found a great deal of M80ti.

Thanks.

I believe the M80ti was the original iteration of the M80.
I wonder if Ian would sell the upgraded cross-over for the M80Ti?

Hi Rock,
It was later during the production run of the M80ti that it received an upgrade, and no longer had the brash sibilance and edginess that I first objected to.
It was still called the M80ti for a while longer, until it became the V1 or V2 (I can't recall which).

If you can get the serial numbers of the M80ti which you found a great deal on, and submit them to Axiom (Ian), he should be able to tell you whether the speakers in question have the tweaked crossover and improvements. The serial numbers are on a sticker on the rear panel below the "M80ti" designation.
I'm still using a pair of the M80ti's that have the tweaked, improved crossover.

Alan

Thanks Alan.

Hello Alan

If the M80Tis do not have the upgraded x-over, can Axiom sell the better x-over for customer install?

2X i think the older crossovers were part of the terminal cup whereas the newer models have the crossovers screwed to the inside of the speaker. Trust me they are a real beotch to get out of there, they are screwed on before the speaker is glued together. With a bit of skill you could modify things to add a more current crossover though its unknown by me if the drivers thiel/small parameters have changed. If the OP is not bothered by the sibilance alan speaks of then all this is really moot. i used a crossover design program to build crossovers for my home made speakers with axiom drivers and measured all the thiele small parameters then listened and changed things till i was happy. I dont know how they sound to anyone else but im happy LOL.

Hello 2x6,

Ian/Axiom never did this during my ten years or so at Axiom.

Ian was always trying to improve the M80s so they would score a bit higher than previous versions on the double-blind listening tests, which explains the small incremental improvements and series of V2, V3 designations over the history of the speaker. Sometimes it wasn't just a matter of crossover tweaks; occasionally he'd try out new drivers as well.

A.L.

I swapped out the cross-overs in my Forte I's a few weeks ago. X-overs were attached to the speaker terminal cup. Had to remove them and then attach the great-big new Crites x-overs to the reinforcing brace. Took a little bit of work, but definitely worth it!

I'd love to operate on my M80s and improve the sound quality.

The biggest risk to changing components is if a designer matched performance to the individual components in the speaker, you risk changing the sound, and results can be mixed.

The tweeter resistors help. Axiom sent me a set many years ago.