Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater VP150 Equalizer Settings?

My new Axioms arrived yesterday - M80, VP150, QS8 for side surrounds, and M22 for rears. Although not fully set up yet, the M80's and VP150 are in position. The QS8's are only 1 inch above bookcase tops, each being suspended between a couple of books to keep the bottom speaker more or less in the clear. They will be wall mounted soon. The M22's are not hung or wired yet. I also have a pair of SVS subs which have been tuned to my R.S. SPL meter, along with the fronts, sides, and center. Although I haven't been "blown away" yet, I expect this will happen once I have all the speakers fully installed and tuned to the SPL.

90% of my system use is home theater with the other 10% being music. One problem I've had for years is the old, "Huh, what did s/he say" when listening to center channel dialog. I've only watched one movie so far with the new Axioms, but I'm still having the same problem. So my question is: What are the optimum parametric equalizer settings for the VP150 center channel for clarity of dialog?

My receiver is a Sony DA4ES with the following equalizer ranges:
Bass, 99 Hz to 1 KHz, +/-10dB
Mid, 198 Hz to 10 KHz, +/-10dB
Treble, 1 KHz to 10 KHz, +/-10dB
Center channel width can be set to Wide, Mid, or Narrow

My center channel settings:
Bass, 250 Hz, +0dB
Mid, 1 KHz, +5dB
Treble, 2.5 KHz, +10dB
Width, Wide

The 10dB treble setting is because I've heard that dialog averages about 3 KHz, so I want all the help I can get at that frequency range.

If anyone has what they consider optimum center channel settings for dialog clarity, I'd appreciate knowing what they are. Or - if you can point me towards a link with information about this problem, this would also be appreciated.

TIA, Bill

I'm just jelous that you can make EQ settings on your receiver. Unfortunately I can't give you any advice in the matter. Good luck to you!

The optimal settings would vary from room to room.

How does it sound with the default settings? Have you done a frequency sweep of the center channel to see what the curve looks like?

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How does it sound with the default settings? Have you done a frequency sweep of the center channel to see what the curve looks like?

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I did some extensive experimenting with my last center channel speaker (JBL S-Center II) and the best settings I found was those mentioned above. I know that I could do the same testing again with the VP150, but I was hoping someone knew some rules of thumb I could apply to help tune the center channel. Or that someone else had experimented and had optimum settings that I could use to start my testing.

- Bill

Bill, although the base frequencies of human voices vary from about 80-300Hz, it's the voice formants which give speech most of its intelligibility, and these formants mainly involve harmonics from about 1000-3000Hz. The adjustments that you describe would appear to be appropriate to maximize dialog intelligibility(although not music)and if it's still not good enough, then it isn't the problem. Is the overall level of the center channel high enough?

I have a recording studio at home and thus I am going to use the same logic I use when engineering:

Buy a compressor.

Run the outboard compressor between the power amp outputs and the center channel speaker's inputs. This will layer everything that goes thru that speaker "to the front" and make it stand out more, the more compression you use. The low passages will be louder and the extremely loud passages will be suppressed in a "smoothed-out" way. Everything will be "evened out."

If this is something you want to consider, I can provide you with recommendations in your price range. Often an optical compressor that is only a couple of hundred dollars can yield optimum results. And now they usually have "auto" settings that can automatically adjust the attack and release characteristics while "looking" ahead at the source material.

-sbc

Oh, no...I made a mistake! I never run the compressor after the poweramp...always before:)!!! Sorry...

So in the scheme of things figure out where that might be. If you are using a reciever, perhaps you can create an effects loop where you can run out of the preamp for that channel, into the compressor, out of the compressor, into an input, then re-route that thru to the poweramp. I know it sounds complicated, but figuring out how to add the compressor will really solve your problems. I use it on recording acoustic guitar passages all the time. It really makes every single note in the "soft" parts shine thru.:)

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The adjustments that you describe would appear to be appropriate to maximize dialog intelligibility and if it's still not good enough, then it isn't the problem. Is the overall level of the center channel high enough?

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Thanks for the information John. The overall level of the center channel is fine - I normally have it 3-4 dB over reference which seems comfortable to me. But your post got me to thinking. Generally speaking, I think the dialog is fine when playing DVD's, but lacking when I watch movies using my Dish DVR satellite receiver. I know that Dish uses compression algorithms to cram as much information into their transmission as possible, then my satellite receiver's software uncompresses these transmissions. I also know that the compression is somewhat lossy, which makes me wonder if I might be losing small bits of the dialog sound track. Or maybe the software realizes that the decompression is losing small amounts of dialog, so it inserts whatever it thinks should be there. If this is the case, these small changes in the sound track may be what is causing my problem. What do you think?

- Bill

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Buy a compressor

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Hello SBC, Thanks for the advice. Right now I have a LOT of ideas I can try which won't cost me anything. If I exhaust all these ideas and still haven't solved the problem, I'll get back to you for suggestions as to which inexpensive compressors might help.

Thanks again,
Bill

Bill, I certainly don't have any special expertise in the area, but it seems very doubtful that the compression/decompression algorithms used for the satellite transmission could significantly affect dialog intelligibility. Again, since there's a difference, consider whether it's simply a matter of slightly lower volume from the satellite as compared to the DVD player.

Exactly...you don't have any expertise in this area, John.

What you're thinking of is different.

For satellite compression, they are compressing the whole bandwith digitally. Adding a pro audio quality compressor to just a fixed bandwith (ie. just the center channel) will cause that speaker to stand out and have everything heard and decrease the dynamic monstrosities (sp?:))

Like I said, there's a few I can recommend for a couple of hundred dollars that I've been happy with in the studio. It works with my monitors, and masters I make, so I don't know why it wouldn't work with a HT center channel (same thing). And after all, any pro recording you buy at the store has used multiple compressors in the recording and mastering process anyways...

Well, anyways, that's all I'll say about this...just my 2 cents...lol...:)

-sbc

Bill...How come you went with the M22's in the rear?

I have 9' ceilings in my living room and I'll be mounting the rears behind us on the ceiling. I don't know if I should go with the QS8's or the M22's (7.1 setup like you w/QS8's on the sides).

Any comments would be appreciated...

-sbc

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How come you went with the M22's in the rear?

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Because I know me and I know if I got lesser speakers for the rears, I'd always wonder how much better the sound could have been had I put the M22's behind me.

Interestingly enough, the QS8 manual that came with the speakers says that if you use them as rear speaker(s), "You will experience a modest improvement in envelopment; on the other hand, you many not notice any difference". Of course I didn't know this before buying the speakers, but it seems Axiom is saying that the QS8's may not do much on a rear wall. This plus the fact that I've read a bunch of posts here recommending "flat" speakers for the rear walls, tells me that I made the right decision.

I've mounted them on the walls using the Axiom FMB's. Since they weigh 16 lbs. each, it was quite a task getting the mounts to grip the wall like iron before hanging the speakers!

BTW - all the speakers are hanging but I ran out of wire when hooking up the 7th speaker! So now I'm listening to my new Axioms in 5.1 sound and looking forward to my #14 stranded speaker wire being delivered next Tuesday!

- Bill

Bill - I've got a 4ES and played with the EQ settings for my VP150 for the same reason. Frankly, I didn't like the result. What I wound up doing was after calibrating the speakers using a SPL meter, I experimented with bumping up the center channel so the VP150 would "emerge" just a tad from the front sound stage (I have M60's). In my room that turned out to be 2 - 3 DB hot over the calibrated levels. That made all the difference in the world. I just think the M60s (and no doubt the M80s) just overpower the VP150 in cases where there is a lot of material coming from them.

As far as rears go, I use QS8s and am very happy with them. My mix is about 80-20 HT to music, but I found them to be great for multichannel music as well. I'm also sure your M22s will kick bootie in the back.

Cheers,

Doug

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bumping up the center channel so the VP150 would "emerge" just a tad from the front sound stage (I have M60's). In my room that turned out to be 2 - 3 DB hot over the calibrated levels.

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That's what I've done, both with the 4ES and it's predecessor, as well as with the VP150 and it's predecessors! I've never been 100% satisfied with any center channel speaker, and I've tried 1/2 dozen or so. OTOH, since my last message in this thread I was finally blown away by the Axioms! I rented "Master and Commander", and the surround effects were the best I've ever heard. Of course I still had problems with the dialog, and this was made worse by some of the harsh English accents, but the rest of the system is outta this world. Note that I also have the M22's as rears, but although they are wall mounted I ran out of wire before finishing the installation. My new wire is supposed to be delivered this Tuesday, and I'm expecting miracles when I go from 5.1 to 7.1 sound!

- Bill

MrBill-

Check it out....I found this on Denon's site. They have a mode called "D. Compressor" on some of their units:

12) WHEN AND HOW DO I USE THE "D. COMP." (OR DIGITAL COMPRESSOR) CIRCUIT? IS THAT THE SAME AS DIALOG NORMALIZATION?
Digital compression and Dialog Normalization are both part of Dolby Digital technology. Although they deal with a soundtrack’s loudness, they’re very different indeed.
You can use the digital compressor (called "D. Comp." on Denon products) whenever you’re listening to a Dolby Digital source. It’s a truly useful feature we’ve included on many of our Dolby Digital-capable products.
D. Comp. circuitry progressively reduces the dynamic range (the difference in loudness between very soft and very loud sounds) of any Dolby Digital source. Denon products give you four different D. Comp. settings (Off, Low, Mid, and High) to match specific needs. "Low" provides the least compression, Mid contributes moderate compression while "High" really stomps on dynamic range with a maximum peak reduction of 15 dB and a 10 dB upwards expansion of very soft sounds -- that’s a maximum 25 dB reduction of dynamic range. .
You’ll find D. Comp. Circuitry particularly useful while watching an action movie late at night when the kids are asleep in the next room. By compressing the sound track’s dynamic range, you’ll be able to hear soft dialog without blasting yourself out of the chair when explosive sound effects appear.
Experiment with different D. Comp levels to find the one that’s best for your needs. We recommend that you use the least amount of compression to preserve the source’s natural dynamic range but the final choice is up to you! Enjoy.
Dialog Normalization, on the other hand, helps you avoid the "this one’s too loud, this one’s too soft" level differences often encountered when changing inputs or sources. Dialog Normalization, which takes its clues from information embedded in the digital audio data stream, makes sure everything’s "just right" -- that levels are roughly the same as you switch sources.

So they DO use a compressor! lol...

-Ed

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Digital compression and Dialog Normalization are both part of Dolby Digital technology.

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Hummm, very interesting! FWIW, my Sony DA4ES has digital compression with 12 settings (Off, Std., 0.1 - 0.9, & High) - I leave it set to Std. There is no dialog compression or normalization on my receiver.

FWIW, I've been playing around with my equalizer and digital compression settings and am finding that my dialog is sounding fairly good now. OTOH, good dialog is also a function of the recording, as well as the system, and I'm also finding that not all recordings are equal as far as dialog is concerned. Now if I could just tell when the problem is a bad recording vs. a system problem with my hardware and/or software, I'd have the problem licked!

On the subject of digital compression - I find it interesting how many people prefer DTS to DD! I may be all wet on this, but to my ears there is no difference between DTS (no digital compression option on my receiver), or DD played with the digital compression off. I bet if some of those who prefer DTS were to simply turn off their DD compression, they would find the sound more to their liking!

- Bill

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Note that I also have the M22's as rears, but although they are wall mounted I ran out of wire before finishing the installation. My new wire is supposed to be delivered this Tuesday, and I'm expecting miracles when I go from 5.1 to 7.1 sound!

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I got my wire and hooked up the 2 M22's in the rear. I then aligned everything with my R.S. SPL, then watched the Blue Underground "Final Countdown" in DD 5.1 EX. The miracle happened . . . absolutely the best sound I've ever heard anywhere!!!

- MrBill

Scream it from the rooftops, man! The goosebumps don't go away for a few days.