Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Thoughts on a trade up? (Trade in not working on w

Hello,

I have the itch for some upgrades. And also have some general questions

I bought M80 v3's (custom - with die cast baskets and dual inputs) and a VP-160 v3 (also with die cast baskets) in 2013.

In 2017, i bought the QS10HP's for rears.

I drive them all with a Rotel RMB-1095 (200 watts per channel, all 5 channels driven @ 8ohm)

I have the itch to try something new perhaps. I follow a lot of various forums and home theater channels ln youtube, for many years now.

After much research, believe it or not, the klipsch RF7 iii is really catching my attention. Not version 1 or 2. They made considerable changes to the horn and apparently it is smooth as silk. You'd be hard pressed to find anything but glowing reviews for these speakers from all the notable review sources.

That being said....selling my m80's and "upgrading" to those is quitw an additional cost. They are 5500-6000 cad. And speakers are soooo subjective so who really knows how much of an upgrade it is. But i wish i was made of money and could try. I like that its much bigger...heavier and has 10" woofers. I also like its design premises.

Im looking for something "more" than the m80 that can justify a reasonable cost. Higher SPL levels while remaining clean and in control. More heavy end (regardless of subwoofer integration).

Now with that said...i have to consider upgrading to the m100.

(Note to axiom....your trade up section of the website will not work and just goes dead when i try to input my serial numbers. Please help. Ive tried multiple browsers too)

So because the trade in portion of site won't take my serial number...i just put i don't have one. It's not taking into account the custom options of my speaker....so it says i can get $920 for the pair.

As for m100's...

There was once upon a time i could have gotten them for 2800 cad but i missed the boat on that one

They are now 4000 cad. B stock is 2800. But with my trade in....i can potentially get a pair of new m100s for 2700.

What's the point of trading in if i can get b stock for same price or better? I'm better off selling privately and buying b stock


This is likely the cheapest upgrade option tho.

How much of a difference would it be? Anyone with direct experience between the m100 and m80....and better yet...anyone with direct experience between the RF7 iii and m100?

I can't find any info on my rotel regarding power if i use that beast for only 2 channels. Did they design it so every channel has seperate amplifiers...in which case...would using 4 total inputs on rotel on dual inputs of m100, give it more available power? Every power amp ive seen usually gives more power when running less channels but i can't find any info at all on this model regarding that. If it does...i wouldn't consider "buy-wiring" potential m100's

There is limited professional reviews on m100s (ive read all the ones that do exist).

Nevermind...i just read i can't trade up on B-stock

That's really disappointing. I can understand refurbs....but be stock? They are new product with 5 year warranty.

That changes a lot and my considerations for m100 change considerably

Tried to open a support ticket to give proper serial numbers and request a quote for m100s and it errored and said:

"Something went wrong with reCAPTCHA. Please contact store owner"


I give up

try calling an see what they say ...

As an aside...

Ive absolutely loved my m80s these past 8 years. Used daily and still going strong

Which is why i'm strongly considering the m100 still.

Klipsch RF 7 iii are 6000 cad for a pair

A pair of b stock m100s after discounts could be as low as 2700 cad.

After factoring in the sale of my m80s for 900-1200....those klipsch are now 4800-5000 and the m100s are 1500-1700.

Id bet my money they are very comparable in performance

Seems a no brainer to go with m100s if thats the case

Have Dirac in your setup yet? Keep your speakers. Start there.

No not yet.

And no. Upgrades are happening regardless.

Accounting for cost...i can't justify jumping to my other choices.

The m100 im sure will please. Especially with v4 updates. Im most interested in the new tweeter

It's easy to get sold on something based on hype. It's hard to pull the trigger when you can't hear them in person.

We bought our Tannoy D700s many years ago. I was looking for certain characteristics at the time including a large for big rooms, no subwoofer required, relatively efficient, good speaker design (has the angled cabinet shape employed by Axiom and others) among many other things. Tannoy had such a historical name and i was doing a lot of reading on sound 'types' at the time (the British sound, Canadian sound, etc.). Long story short, we bought those speakers after hearing some other Tannoy speakers (Saturns and one of their Royal lineup but i don't recall which, maybe a Kensington?). If anything, check around the local hifi shops and see if anyone carries the higher end Klipsch products. It is worth trying to hear even a cousin to the speaker than buying something blind for $5k. Unless of course you are happy to work within the used markets buying and selling and in such case, you can try out all sorts of stuff, though typically at a lost cost over time.

If you want more bass, you need more drivers, larger tower, or bigger drivers. The M100 does add that over the M80.
If you are jazzed on trying a different tweeter, there are other options out there as well like the Monitor Audio Platinum series. I've always found the MA to be more bassy than Axiom but with a real life like midrange (airy is a word people use). This is an example of an original Platinum PL300 (they are onto version Platinum II now).
https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649477737-monitor-audio-platinum-pl300-speakers-used/
You can find the PL300 used for around 7k but the PL200 should sell for a bit less used. The PL200 have smaller bass drivers while the PL300 is the slightly larger version (chose which you prefer for your room and preference).

On a side note, in an A/B comparison of our Tannoy Definition which uses a dual-concentric driver setup (horn-like) vs. Axiom M60, the Tannoy actually sounded more laid back. I had always found the Axiom to be a bit bright. This was a commonly reported character in their early versions of the lineup (and no it wasn't because it had a hard steel tweeter).

Do those Tannoys render holographic images and do they acoustically disappear?

Your SC-57 does not support current audio codecs or room calibration. Its your $, but I promise you starting there with a modern unit with Dirac will likely end your quest for upgrades (if you are upgrading for Sound, anyway.)

If you are just bored and wanting a change then the Cerwins would be the first to go. Again, based on sound quality strategy.

Your quest for upgrades will end with M100s...and Dirac...and 7 sealed subs. Mooowahaha!

Ok...some great input guys. Many of you strayed from my very direct questions about particular things...but i still appreciate your thoughts.

I already have plans to order a proper sub in may

By june...i was going to be buying a new reciever. Im eyeing up the denon x3700h for many particular features and my own reasons.

Ive lurked many hundreds of posts about dirac. Many like it and many prefer audyssey xt32. I need many more features than just dirac...at a reasonable price point. The denon fits all these criteria.

The speaker upgrade will likely come in the fall.

Nothing feels as drastic a change as switching to new mains

As happy as i have been with my m80's for the last 8 years...i want more.

Chesseroo...i really appreciated ur take on those sets.

Ive always been interested in trying some monitor audios. Or the JBL hdi3800s get AMAZING reviews...

But my financial ceiling would be around 4k tops(cad). So that puts even the rf7 iii a little out of my range. With discounts and b stock...the m100 is the clear financial winner for an upgrade. So i lean towards it. I just wonder how notable a difference it would make.

I do agree too and find the m80s to be "crisp" in the highs especially at loud SPL's.

Trevor...

Unfortunately, i had both a sc-57 and a sc-61 fail VIA the famous "ue22". After the thread at avsforums blew up bad and pioneer finally owned the problem and started a warranty program...i was able to get the sc-57 fixed. But i then gave it to my dad and my sc-61 then did it. But onkyo bought pioneer and stopped the fix program. The cost to ship it from my rural area to a deal plus cost of repair....is almost as much as my new denon im eying up. Im done with pioneer. Right now im limping by with an old onkyo(really old. Maybe the first hdmi models). No pre outs..so cant use my rotel currently either. I cant listen at very loud levels currently. But its enough to get by.

That being said...when i was shopping around for my sc61, i first took home a marantz s5007 i think....while it was nice...i didn't like audyssey. It wouldn't let me tweak hardly anything. I much preferred mcacc over it. I returned it in favour of sc61

But i know audyssey has evolved and now that im going tl be getting serious with subwoofer integration...audyssey xt32 will probably be much more ideal. I hear arc and dirac are good too of course.

So like mentioned above...a serious subwoofer and receiver IS coming first.

But back to my main inquiry...with the suitable power...will the m100s be night and day difference to m80 v3? Anyone listen to m100s against other notable speakers?

And anyone have info regarding my Rotel questions in the OP?

Love talking stereo...thanks guys!

P.s. mojo...you and your subs haha. Love it

I want something bigger...badder and meaner for my mains.

Ive been researching on everything from JTR noesis speakers to svs ultras and prime pinnacles to monitor audio, power sound audio, etc

The 3 that stand out to me the most are

1. JBL HDI-3800s. (If money werent a concern...id buy these in a heartbeat) - $7000 cad

2. Klipsch RF 7 iii ($5000)

3. Axiom m100 ($4000...but more like 2400 with a good b stock deal and discounts)

The first two are bigger...heavier...fancier...bigger drivers. And you cant find bad impressions OR reviews. Gone are the days of "klipsch are harsh". Amazing advancements in the horn. Smooth as silk apparently. And their RF7's stand well above the lower models (even the 8000f who get very rave reviews from the notable circles).

The axiom doesn't have much info or reviews online to work with.

So...m100 users...speak up please!

Ive enjoyed my m80s immensely...but like i say...i want something bigger, badder and meaner. Lol.

If you want impressive low end no doubt the M100s will fit the bill.

Fact is, properly tuned speakers sound more alike than different once calibrated in a space. Frankly, you just arent going to do better than Axiom for a speaker capable of being whatever you need for an aplication for the price unless you go to pro PA monitors. But then you have a hiss noisefloor.

Buy the 100s. Try them.

AVS and other forums are great, but hard to sort people with experience from parrots. I think most of the folks with actual know how and experience are not interested in the “contest of egos” there. Some insightful folks are here.

I've stayed away from giving you my thoughts because 1. I've said it all before, many, many times and 2. I've never heard M80v3. But seeing how you are so challenged by this, I'll waste some of my life to maybe make yours better.

First, if you are listening to M80v3 without "room correction", and you like them, you will be floored when you hear M100s. With XT32, you may never yearn another fronts upgrade again. I'll explain more about the "may" later.

Before I get into my opinions about M80 vs. M100, let's look at the cold, hard facts. Up first below is the listening window and sound power curve of the M80v4. The curves for the M80v3 are not available. Then next is the same for the M100v4.




Look at the curves in the region below 150Hz. Compared to the M100, the M80 response is certainly nowhere near as smooth. One of the things I've learned over the years is if you can't have smooth response in the bass, you should not even try. This is why the M2 is so great. It doesn't attempt to do what it physically can't. And this is why so many bought the Bose 601. It had no highs and no lows so it did not offend in either of those bands. Some may say "So what? Just cut off the lows and send them to the sub with extreme prejudice." It doesn't work that way. Lows still make it to the fronts. And the fronts will mess with that bass so bad that you won't be able to hear the glorious smack of drumsticks on the skin or ebullient pop from instruments.

Before I get to v3, let me tell you about v2. I had a full v2 system which included M80s. Then came the M5, M3 and M2 - all v4. I pitted them all against the M80v2. Sorry to all who own M80s but unless you are just interested in party-level SPL, all those bookshelves outperform the M80v2 in soundstage and imaging. The M5 and M2 even outperform the M80v2 in fidelity. I can live very comfortably with M2s and a sub in my 4200 cu. ft. home theater.

I've never heard v3 but based on the description from Ian below, there were changes made to the family of curves which of course would have improved the sound power and listening window over v2. In fact, in Ian's first post, a listener comments on how the soundstage and imaging improved. In v2, there really was no soundstage depth or width beyond the speaker boundaries. That appears to have been improved in v3. Also spatial resolution was improved.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/311302/1

But I surmise the major changes came with v4. Andrew got his mitts in there and with the work Axiom was doing with Bryston, Axiom woke up and learned a hell of a lot of science and engineering. It learned so much it put a real cross-over in the M3 - imagine that! It used all that knowledge to build the amazing v4 line. Every one of the v4 has a soundstage which starts at the front plane of the speakers and moves "back" to the front wall. It is wide, deep, tall no matter which model you buy. The only difference between the models is the lower end extension, dynamic capability and spatial resolution. Sonic holography is there with all the models but it's the degree of resolution in that spatial image that changes as you move up. This in my opinion is as it should be. Even the M3, that I despised so much in the ti days, is a glorious piece of work now.

Now getting to the "maybe" from the beginning of my post. While the M100s will offer, without question, an incredibly realistic rendition of instruments and voices, they are big. That makes placement within the room extremely important if you want them to sonically disappear. Some have managed to make this happen like Canes but there are others. I never could. I could tell I was listening to a pair of speakers. The M5, M3, and M2 disappeared better than the M100. This is what the active LFR1100s solved for me. And I got significantly greater spatial resolution and micro and macro dynamics which I didn't think would be possible over the M100. With the actives, I cannot tell that I am listening to a pair of speakers. I have tried long and hard to find fault in that regard and simply cannot. So the M100s are now with my buddy who fell in love with them within the first 30 seconds of listening.

I hope this helps you. I am off to do some water color with my BFF/FWB.

I've read the majority of your past posts and experience with axiom products(and your reviews). i appreciate you going into such detail for me.

Yeah those graphs are much smoother.

I want fidelity, dynamics and soundstage AND loud "party speaker spl vibes" when i want to lol. I ain't the stereophile.com guy listening to mozart and sipping over priced wine or flavoured water...talking about the rush of a pipe organ or terribly old recorded piano passage.

(Classical music lovers out there....don't get your panties in a twist...just poking fun )

Some days, I'm more of a "let's pound some beers and get stupid with the volume knob when black label society, rammstein, rob zombie, black sabbath comes on" kinda guy. When in those moods...im not sitting down in prime listening position marvelling at how wide and luxurious the soundstage is. No, in those moods, I'm trying to fill the entire house with max spl without it sounding bad or harsh. On these days...im listening to the whole system in extended stereo and ive sat in listening position with db meter for funsies(13 feet away from mains) and my ceiling is about 95db before it starts sounding bad or harsh. Im sure a proper sub is going to be a game changer

P.s. a track you all must check out....fuss and fight - koe wetzel. Amazing track that digs deep and id wager impossible for you to not tap your foot to catchy beat. Gives me la grange zztop vibes

Other days, im in a mood for exploring the dynamic range and accuracy and luxuriousness of soundstage in primary listening position. Im either enjoying a blu ray concert, softer acoustic music or my pink floyd albums.

And then other days...im trying to show off what my system can do to the girlfriend and our kids with a movie night. Or with a friend

And then other days...im trying to take my video game to another level lol

Im about to put some coffee on, start up a spotify playlist on shuffle and enjoy some rocket league at same time. Low DB. Background music. And in moments like these...im sure a bookshelf would be more than sufficient


But there are times i want to rock my socks off! Haha

Trevor and mojo...

Besides the obvious new reciever and sub we can all agree i need...i agree with your assessment lf the m100. It seems like the best and obvious choice for my upgrade fever...especially considering the cost vs competition

Im excited to trade up and give my thoughts

Here is the spinorama for the JBL. A nice piece of work. On paper, the M100 doesn't look much different other than it will dig lower. An interesting decision by Harman to boost the response above 15KHz. Perhaps the engineers didn't have a choice.



At 13 feet away, you'll be able to push the M100 to 105dBC peaks before you sense any distortion. With a sub, they'll hit over 109dBC cleanly. Not sure if the Denon can power them cleanly to those levels.

Good thing i have the rotel rmb 1095

Which reminds me...

Why can't i find any info on only 2 channels driven from rotel, power ratings?


Thanks for digging up a comparison

109 clean decibels...*homer drool* lol

Yeah when i say i hit those kinds of spl...thats running the rotel and extended stereo with qs10hp and the vp160

It was actually this forum that helped me fix it (blown fuse inside, had to take a few insides apart to get to it)

Some super smart and helpful people here

Did you look here?

https://rotel.com/sites/default/files/RMB-1095%20Stereophile%20GHT%20Feb01.pdf

200Wpc into 8 Ohms and I suspect that's both channels driven. I think it can easily pump 250W into 4 Ohms. You can likely extract 500W peaks.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Rich and I encouraged you with that fuse but you did all the hard work.

No thats wrong...its 200wpc with all 5 channels driven simutaneously. But cant find rating when only 2 driven

I just checked out page 3, bottom left corner. 235W/channel, 2 channels driven into 8 Ohms. There's also a 4 Ohm rating.

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/rotel-rmb-1095

"Rotel's 5-channel RMB-1095 is THX Ultra certified and boasts 200 watts into 8-ohms (20Hz-20kHz) with all channels driven. It can drive any speakers rated at 4-ohms or greater and has 116 dBA SNR (more on this later). Weighing in at 75lbs and standing over 9" tall there are no smoke and mirrors to be found here."

https://rotel.com/en-ca/product/rmb-1095

"Rated at 200 watts per channel (all 5 channels driven into 8 ohms, 20 Hz 20 kHz, less than 0.03% THD), the RMB-1095's power supply is built around two 1.2 kVA toroid transformers. "



But i can't find the rating for just 2 channels. Shouldnt it be more when only driving 2?

Dude, damn it! It is more, mmmmk?

The bottom left corner of the link I sent you on page 3 reads 235W/channel, 2 channels driven into 8 Ohms and around 280 into 4 Ohms.

So that's 35 more than spec into 8 ohms and 85 more into 4 Ohms. Your M100s are gonna freakin' rock! You're gonna be rockin and a reelin, jumpin to the ceiling. I have the ADA-1000 which is punier than your Rotel and my M100s were shattering my ear drums!

Everythinf im reading says 330 watts in 4ohm all 5 channels driven.

Wouldn't only 2 be more than 330 in 4ohm?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://manualzz.com/doc/en/1938162/rotel-5-channel-amplifier-rmb-1095-owner-s-manual&ved=2ahUKEwjrkcyOrPTvAhWUrJ4KHXzEAvYQFjAPegQIEhAC&usg=AOvVaw0oW13g07Hl9fi9tQDsM0Nf&cshid=1618080833501


The owners manual. I realize it says din and not rms.

Not too well versed in this

Where im confused is...for example...the axiom amplifiers or emotiva offer almost double the power when only 2 channels driven. Why is the rotel different in this regard...you get only a slight increase?

Would it be beneficial to use the dual inputs in this case?

Use 4 channels of the rotel for left and right and power the center and rears with the denon i plan on getting?


This pic is straight from owners manual

https://ibb.co/W0W8B0w


I realize the stereophile reciew produced less.

Im considering an emotiva monoblock for each speaker perhaps

No, no, no! Absolutely no bloody way that can do 330W per channel into 4 Ohms across each of the 5 channels concurrently. No way!

DIN is a rating for a single channel, at 1KHz, at a specified load (4 Ohms in this case) for 10 minutes with no more than 1% THD.

I believe the 235/280 figures in the link I sent you for both channels driven concurrently.

The Emo and Axiom designs are different. They act as more of a true voltage source because they can source more current.

What you call dual inputs won't help.

Don't buy an amp yet. Get the M100s and use the Rotel. Then make a decision on amplification.

Ok thanks man.

Where im confused...it says it produces 1000 watts total and a reviews had it running 200 w per channel all 5 channels driven @ 8 ohm (with the review you posted coming slightly less with all 5 driven).

Now...if i use dual inputs of m80 or m100 or not (and 4 channels or 2 channels on rotel or not)....shouldn't I in theory, being giving them the ability to EACH pull up to 400 watts @ 8 ohm (if they were calling for it) ? Help me understand why i can divide up the 1000 watts across 5 channels at 200 each continuously....but i cant divide the 1000 watts into 400-500 when only using 2 channels

Because the outputs are likely voltage\current limited to keep the transistors from eating themselves.

Don't worry. That thing seems ballsy. Should impress with the 100s.

Or, like Koe might say "Haul ass and get chicks." Lol. Liked the song.

BTW, when I get someone like yourself in for a demo and they are like "No big deal, let see what you got" I play this.... Not really a replay value track, but definitely puts posers on notice. Downright scare people with it.

Then they buy Axioms. Have fun!

Kill Everybody- Skrillex
https://open.spotify.com/track/4XCHizdk3YrzdveEOAGpob?si=49006229ae074e90

Audioholics never measured it. I don't know where Audioholics got the figure of 200W/channel with all channels driven.

I believe the article I linked. It can produce 165 honest continuous Watts into 8 Ohms with all channels driven, 235W into 2 channels concurrently into 8 Ohms and 280 into 2 channels concurrently at 4 Ohms.

Now, if you cross to a sub, you can probably squeeze out 10 or 15 more Watts.

If you connect two good batteries in parallel in your car, do the headlights get brighter compared to just a single, good 12V battery? No. The lights will just be on longer with two batteries than with one. For brighter lights, you need a higher voltage battery. So if you connect dual channels, the speaker won't get louder. You need an amp with a higher output voltage like the ADA-1500.

I agree with Trevor. You'll have a ballsy system.

Lol thanks trevor. Glad u liked the song

Skrillex is awesome. I might have heard it but im definitely going to check that track out when i get home! thanks

Mojo...thanks man. That makes sense. Yeah i think those measurements must be the accurate ones. I do want to get some monoblocks in the future for the mains

But it will be the last thing i put my money towards.

1. Order sub
2. Upgrade to new reciever
3. Upgrade mains to m100
4. Add 2 more channels to make it a 7.1.
5. Consider buying monoblocks or a second sub




Thanks everyone. Im sold on the m100s. Best optionn financially

Depends where you are sitting.

Thread hijacking is a common hobby here.

As a general note on Rotel gear, all the reading i've done indicates they are well built and typically measure outputs beyond their specs. You may not have all the specs you see, but you have enough to get the general rating of what the amp can do/does.
I have a Rotel RA05 SE int-amp driving my home office setup. Plenty of power to really crank it. I was looking at possibly investing in a Rotel amp for the HT myself at one point but ended up with an Anthem.

Presumably they are holographic and acoustically disappear at the MLP? That's really all one can expect from passives.

The brochure on the Rotel site reads 200W/channel into 8 Ohms, 20Hz to 20KHz with 0.03% THD max. The all channels driven statement is curiously absent from the owner's manual. The brochure is published by Marketing. The owner's manual is published by Engineering. With twin 1.2 KVA transformers, I can believe the all channels driven spec, if a 20A circuit is being used for North America.

Well...since the website is buggy...and won't accept any serial numbers in the input(some issue with the scripts in webpage program i imagine)...i created a support ticket

After waiting a few days...no response and now ticket says closed.

Irritating but whatever. This is more of a long term plan. Im just going to message Ian directly if and when i have the money to trade up

I'm not sure if that online system ever worked well except to possibly tell you what age your speakers were made.
Easier just to call their line and sort out the tradeups. I'll be eyeballing ours this year (was going to last year but covid pushed many things).

Perfect opportunity to trade in those ti for M60v4 in Winnipeg Walnut finish.

I liked your old basement better.
I don't think your new 70s retro look is yet back in style Mojo.

That photo I posted looks like a palace compared to the shack I grew up in at the north end.