Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Speaker cables

I have standard 14 gage bulk cables running to my LFR 880’s. They are connected to a 125W Outlaw 5000 amp. I also have an EP 500 that is wireless. I am so very pleased with this 2.1 system, although the sub seems to lag a bit, but I can live with it. Also there are times where I would like to have more power to the speakers. I don’t hear any distortion when I’m pushing up the volume, but it concerns me that the volume control is almost to its limit. I am not interested in buying a new amp and am looking for ways to increase power to the speakers. I’ve recently been investigating speaker wire. My thought is to upgrade the wire from 14 gage to 10 or 12. My thinking is less resistance may allow for slightly more power going to the speaker not to mention higher quality sound. What do y’all think? Another question I have is the type of wire materials that compose the wires. So, what would be the best bang for the buck kind of wire? I’m not interested in ultra expensive cables, but would like to try high quality types at around $10-$25 per foot. I’m grateful that I can draw upon the expertise of the members of this forum. Thanks so much.

It all depends on how many feet your running and the impedance of your speaker.
Your speaker is 4ohms. So your max run for each gauge in copper with a 1% loss is
10awg: 20ft
12awg: 12.6 ft
14awg: 7.9 ft

You can double that if a 2% loss is ok.


If you’d like to know where those numbers came from …

One more thing … ok two
CCA wire (copper clad aluminum) is not as conductive as copper if you use it multiple the max run by 0.6
Last I looked quality 12awg Copper speaker wire could be had for less than 40 cents a foot (in under 100ft quantities)

Oh hell ... I realized that I didn't tell you how all of that related to your question ...

I'm not a big believer in "special" speaker wire. If the resistance of OFC wire is 100 times less than the speaker's impedance, IMO, you're good to go. (Unless the manufacture has introduced some crazy impedance characteristics which I'm pretty sure would be a negative thing) The big differences are in how many strands, kind of casing, flexibility, and form (round, flat, ...).

So for an excellent, high strand count, in-wall, 10 awg OFC I went all out at a $1/ft ... I'm pretty convinced it will sound as good as anything in the $10-$25 per foot (or higher) range.

So, If your run with 14 AWG OFC wire is less the 8ft ... there, IMO, is no improvement to be had. Even at 20ft I'd doubt you'd hear a difference.

That said, I'll also tell you to go for it (a higher gauge not the higher-end marketing) ... there is no reason not to use a larger gauge and there's something that feels great to have nice hefty wire running to those speakers.

I run 12 AWG for a 6ft run to my M2's (8 ohms). Numbers say I don't even need 14.

P.S. I can guarantee others will disagree ... this is one of those audio religious issues

Are you sure its not a source issue?

#14 is capable of plenty of volume. Its not your speaker wire.

Its an input signal to amp problem. Something else is wrong.

The lads have provided some feedback on this, but there's a few other questions to ask.
Just how loud are you trying to play the speakers? And how close do you sit?
For example, sitting 10 feet away and getting 90dB of sound is pretty good. At 10 feet and getting 100dB is damn loud. Going beyond that, you could start short term hearing impairment. That aside, if you wanted to get 100dB while in the kitchen 18 feet away, you would need not only significant, exponentially more power but probably also a new, much larger speaker (think big concert speaker).

Your amp has its limit.
The speakers have a limit.
Cables cause far less a limit than the previous two. Here's a good and often quoted table for cable runs from Roger Russell.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable
Theoretically your 14ga wire is fine up to 40 foot runs with 4 ohm loads. I personally use 12 gauge cable and i have a few runs in the HT room which hit about 20-25 feet but for surround speakers that are lighter 8 ohm loads.

If you wanted more dB of sound, higher sound pressure levels, changing your 14ga cable won't do much unless you are running dozens of feet from the amp to the speaker (i'm assuming this is unlikely).
You will need to assess how loud you want to play sound, how loud you want to hear it at the farthest distance, and then figure out how much power you need (yes, this does mean a new and much beefier amp, and no, there is no way around this). Again noting, that there IS a limit. You would not be able to hit 120dB at 20 feet with the 880s even with a 1000W per channel amp without having distortion, clipping or drivers hitting their excursion limits.

the above information is correct. To look at this from a slightly different angle - A change of 3 dB is accepted as the smallest difference in level that is easily heard by most listeners, listening to speech or music. It is a slight increase or decrease in volume.

To produce an increase of +3 dB you simply need to double power (watts).

Changing your speaker wires will not provide any noticeable change in any of the numbers/measurements in this statement.

The fact is if you want it louder you need to change either the power output of the amplifier, or the sensitivity of the speakers. Neither of those options is inexpensive - assuming you want quality sound.

I think Trevor is right, with that Amp he should be able to fill any reasonably sized room. Something's up and it's not the speaker cable ... (that is unless he's has a 100 ft+ run he's not telling us about ).

Keep in mind that we dont' know his preferred SPL and distance for listening. With that amp, running the 880s, i actually wouldn't expect alot of oomph at higher SPL.
The $770 USD amp (https://outlawaudio.com/shop/products/50-model-5000x-5-channel-amplifier.html) only has 120W/ch @ 8ohm and it maxes out at 180W /ch @ 4ohm load (all 5 driven; no where close to a power doubling which gives you some indication of the power supply quality) and has a whopping [sarcasm] 6800uF /ch capacitance (added together 34,000uF which is stupidly low overhead for dynamic peaks.
A comparable used Anthem MCA5 (circa 1999; approx. $1000 Cdn; https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649777485-anthem-mca-5/) puts out 200W/ch @ 8ohm (350W@ 4 ohm) and has 100,000 uF total capacitance, 20,000 per channel (http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/video/revequip/anthem_mca5.htm; https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/anthem-mca-5-amplifier.html) compared to Outlaw. Brand new the Outlaw is cheaper, but you can see why. Buying an older but used amp gets you ALOT more for your money. Note that there are several revisions of this Anthem lineup over the years and you can get newer units for not much more in used costs with similar specs.

Outlaw like Emotiva is another inexpensive brand and for what they do, they can do it 'just fine', but trying to power LFR880s to some high SPL or in a larger room or a 'distant' listening location, it doesn't have sufficient juice.

My advice, don't turn up any volume knob past 80-85% or you chance some kind of clipping, distortion, maxing out of speakers or amps (if you buy well, your equip will have protection shut downs, but speakers clipping do not shut themselves off). If you can't get enough dB of sound at that point, start looking at your system components and listening environment to determine what you really need to get the sound level you want. Don't try pushing the gear closer to 100% or risk damage.
I will say it again though, everything has its limits. If you wanted to get 100dB at 20 feet away (for example), you need to open the pocket book, get really large (or many) speaker units, or else face the fact that such a scenario is not possible with LFR880s and this Outlaw amp.

Actually, I would expect that amp to get to “Rock Concert” levels. ( in a reasonably sized home listening space). It’s the dynamics which might be limited at extreme volume. I think the limiting factor probably has more to do with the audio chain. I.e. what’s the full output of each device v.s. Full expected input to the device after it.

I agree with Chess. You can get a lot more from a used amp/receiver. Anthem makes great audio products that not only spec well, but sound great.

2x, I’ll take your agreement with Chess very narrowly … that one can get better value in the used market ….

Chess, I guess the question I have is … are we here to help solve a problem or to diss equipment?

I can’t speak for the 5000’s headroom … I’ll assume it has none. But that doesn’t mean it can’t get loud. (I have no doubt that the outlaw’s first 180 watts are clean.) it just means at loud volume it will clip the dynamic peaks beyond that.

Since he did not mention anything about bad sound I would not be jumping to the conclusion that his amp doesn’t have enough juice. My 100 watt receiver gets plenty loud … and his outlaw should be putting it to shame.

Yup, I'm not dissing Outlaw products. My friend has an Outlaw 5 channel receiver driving some Michaura M665 towers (very much like our M60s) and M55 surrounds (very much like our M22s). Sounds great.

I have no experience with Emotiva products. I had an Anthem PVA 5 channel amplifier (rated at 120ish watts per channel). Very, very nice sound quality. Never had a clipping problem with it.

"Rock Concert” levels.... "in a reasonably sized home listening space"
This is all undefined and specific to individuals. Without having more information on the listening distance and room size, i won't start by assuming the problem is electronic. I'm not assuming their space is a lovely 12x12 room and that the person sits 10 feet away. In my case, this amp is insufficient for our main floor space using 94db/w/m rated speakers. Our existing Anthem would clip just before the point around where i would max out my SPL preference at greatest distance. If i get any less efficient speakers (including Axioms based on posted measurements), i would need even more power (which i have now and based on all calculations should provide enough overhead so i don't have to concern about the near clipping edge).

What is 'rock concert' to some (many won't listen beyond 85dB) is not rock concert to others (fellow hockey guy i know loves 95dB+ and wonders why he burnt his Sony speakers running off one of those 100W/ch AVRs). With that example in mind, the Sony owner wasn't aware of what clipping sounds like and he would turn his system up to about 95% on a regular basis. Just because there was no mention of change in sound quality doesn't mean clipping is not happening if the person doesn't recognize it and at lower amounts of clipping, it is hard to detect with loud (e.g. hard rock) music. Sometimes it can make the sound really bad but other times it can be written off as just the loudness of the music.
AVR and amps without much dynamic headroom will clip sooner than you think.
There's lots of power calculators out there and depending on what gets plugged in, you get different results. Ultimately, 10-12 feet away, 100dB playback for a 90db/w/m speaker results in minimums around 120W-220W (not including peaks which if you increase the headroom number, the wattage requirements skyrocket which is where the capacitance reserve is important).
https://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#amp_power_required
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322spl-calculator/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-often-do-amplifiers-clip.12757/page-2

Anyway, following some answers about the listening environment, then i would consider the electronics. One thing that came to mind was in re: to this person's pre-pro. Are they using an AVR that has a volume limiter?
I would expect they would know that though but they didn't provide any info about that either.
Having had the opportunity in the past to turn up a system to 100%, i can say that the volume doesn't increase beyond 85-90%, only the distortion does, which can 'sound' louder but the measured SPL didn't change.
I have no idea what the OP is experiencing or to help narrow down a source without more information.

On the contrary, I'm not dissing any gear at all (not sure how you read that). The Outlaw amp was rated very well among fans and even by ASR and i had considered Outlaw and Emotiva amps for the main floor.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...000-multichannel-amplifier-review.10585/

However, you still get what you pay for. Is the OP having a PSU failure of some kind? Possibly. Based on the Outlaw numbers, the PSU, capacitance choice doesn't strike me as particularly robust, longevity-of-product engineering. You can keep costs down by cutting corners and still making things work, mostly.

Emotiva is the same. I had to fiddle with my pre-pro, do a beta firmware update that really took some trials to get to work, plus a Sony tv update and fixed most of the main issue i had related to HDMI switching which was the primary reason i was buying the Emo. If i couldn't get that to work, i would have had to turn around and resell the unit less than a month after procuring one from the used market and be forced to buy a processor for $1500 or more (may as well consider an AVR at that point but i'll digress from my rant on why pre-pros are so stupidly expensive).

Larger more expensive brands can have issues of course (e.g. the Onkyo hdmi board), but i've experienced nothing like this Emotiva fix i had to undertake myself (thankfully being computer savvy, updating firmware on hardware is a familiar task). Based on my broad readings, this type of thing is common with Emotiva, but hey, they're inexpensive so you have trade offs. Outlaw is no different. Personally i've become a fan of Rotel gear which performs solid and is generally less expensive than most, although more than Outlaw/Emo.
Based on all the reading and research i undertook before settling on amps, i opted not to go with Outlaw or Emotiva because of their reported problems which included anything from poor customer service, lack of communication and variety of reported technical issues and failures. Additionally i had some insight from someone who did electronics repairs that commented on these amps brands that went through their hands at some point and wasn't overly positive on the components. I would take a chance on the Emo pre-pro, but not on the amp driving $6500 speakers. That's just my opinion and i'm grateful to have the resources to be able to buy an amp for which i am comfortable owning and using. If i didn't, i would probably own an Outlaw or an Emo (whichever got the best ratings and lowest complaints abroad), but i would also not be owning $6k+ in speakers!

Chess, I was trying to be vague …. I just wanted to say that i thought he had enough power to fill a decent size residential room to a uncomfortably high level. I’m not claiming distortion free but distortion free enough for your average non-critical listener.

If you really want to go through the exercise we could do the math and estimate the max SPL number for 180 watts at 10ft (or ask Captain4105 for his actual MLP) … then just by subtracting 15db we will also know the loudest we can play it with enough headroom for dynamics.

I live for details.

I actually tried playing with the calcs for my own rooms in the past. The calcs are simplistic models for which all variables cannot be accounted. Theoretically i should have enough power with my Anthem and the Tannoy speakers to hit 100dB at 18 feet, but that isn't the reality.
Buy more power/overhead than you need, up to what you can afford (i think i'm paraphrasing something Ian has long promoted).

sure they are simplistic ... but it's quick and gets you some ball park numbers ... So, just for fun

LFR880 SPL 92dB 1W/1 meter
SPL 1W @ 10ft (3.048meters)
= 92 - 20 log(3.048) = 82.32 db

SPL 180W @ 10ft
= 82.32 db + 10 log(180) = 104.87 db

Degrading (turning down the volume) so we don't clip dynamics (-15db) we have an SPL of 90db at 10 ft. So you can get a front row classical music experience without distortion but if you want rock concert levels your gonna have to move closer (and wear ear plugs )

And using a different calc (the one at Acoustic Frontiers), using the same numbers, to hit 104dB at that distance, speaker efficiency and assuming 3dB of headroom (the default and not unreasonable), RMS watts 120W and peak amp watts required, 240! (theoretically, room reflections, size, distance from walls, can change that further)

Every model is a bit different depending on what else gets plugged into it. I've done enough modeling in my lifetime to know, i rarely trust models (there's always a question to be asked, something that hasn't been considered, and the best model being when every variable that affects something can be entered but in that instance, measuring everything to get data to fill in the everything included model already answers the question).
Ballpark? How big is the ballpark?
In this case, the wattage for peaks at the same listening distance and dB you noted is beyond the capacity of the Outlaw amp, or very well could be.
This brings us back around to my original questions first; what does the OP consider loud, at what distance.

We'll go around in circles on this forever.
Probably an old thread where the circle was already driven 500 laps.

OP likely already asking question in another forum for answer they “want”.

Pretty sure wanting new speaker cables and what to buy was agenda.

If you are still here bulk #10 Belden from blue jeans cable is fine.

If you want to spend more maybe buy preterminated kimber. Dunno.

agreed

AVS would have been the better place to get such a preferred response about 'upgrading' cables than here no?

Last thought on the topic of loudness, Amir at ASR has a great post on it, 40 min video but based on research as usual. Some of the research numbers are surprisingly higher than many may have guessed, such as no amplification concerts with just instruments typically in the 100dB+ range (jazz at 127dB!).
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/music-how-loud-is-loud-video.22434/
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/online/browse.cfm?elib=7948

I've often seen the rock concert SPL levels on loudness charts relating to hearing safety of 120dB (https://myhealth.alberta.ca/Health/Pages/conditions.aspx?hwid=tf4173) and a person shouting at someone 1 inch from their ear can hit over 130dB, but how these are measured and the half truth of going deaf is part of Amir's video. Loudest rock concerts hitting over 135db is still just crazy.

I suppose if someone really wanted a true, full sounding, surround sound concert experience in their home without the limitation of a 10x10x8 room, they better be prepared to open the pocket books real wide!

Amir's method for finding limits in the equipment is exactly what i've been doing for 20 years, based in part on seeing how Axiom punishes their gear to understand the limits. It's why i set my recommendation to never push the volume past the 85% level (as a starting point rule of thumb) except during a very brief testing phase with near gear to know the threshold for audible distortion and to make sure i don't come near that point. If i find myself going beyond those values because i'm trying to get more SPL at my preferred listening distance, i need to review the equipment list for changes (bigger speaker, more amp power) or resign myself to knowing that for what i can afford, it's got limits beyond my expectations and perhaps should add some surround speakers instead for ambience over SPL.

Thank you all for the information, much of what has been written has been in line with my thinking. The sound coming from my 880’s is terrific, but I would conclude my amp is just adequate. I contacted Axiom to assure me that the Outlaw 5000 would work, and they thought it to be fine. I only used 4 of the five channels so there is a little extra backup power. I sit at about 10 feet from the speakers in a reasonably large bedroom. Occasionally I desire reference levels for orchestral music and I pretty much get there, just worry about pushing the amp too hard which may harm the speakers, however I don’t hear distortion or clipping. The best resolution is to buy a more powerful amp or settle for what I have. Thanks again to all! I really appreciate your input.

For myself I’d be very happy with 180w in a bedroom … But if you must have a full volume experience you’ll have to go to a larger amp. Play with the equations above to figure out how much. If you know the amp has some headroom subtract it off the 15db. Good luck and have fun it.

LFR880s in a bedroom?
Damn.
What's in the living room?