Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Tube tied

Does anyone have any experience using a tube amp (or integrated tube amp) with axiom's ? Currently I'm getting pretty impressive sound (to my ears) from my m60's paired w/ my older HK 45wpc receiver and Denon 80 wpc receiver. Have heard alot about the "warmth" of tube amps and curious if they would provide an appreciably different/improved sound versus ss amps/receivers matched with the m60's. I've seen the Onix integrated tube amp (h34) that I was wondering if it might be a good match. The sound would have to be quite a bit better that what I'm getting now to justify the $1295 price tag. Would for 2 channel music only.

this is where 2x6 ought to chime in...

2x6spds is a regular on this forum and he swears by tube amps. Depending on your listening preferences, you may also prefer the tube sound to solid state. Just be aware that tube amps are not as neutral as solid state amps when it comes to music reproduction. This is not in and of itself a negative thing, though. It's just a matter of personal preference.

I thnk Haoleb is a "tube guy" also. He's in Hawaii, so he won't be here 'til late.

also 'haoleb' is a big tubehead.. he could probably give you plenty advice on that subject.

if you want my opinion, $1300 bucks for an amp that is only gonna push 2 channels, sounds like a big waste of money to me..but everything is relative.

bigjohn

hey, quit stealing from my posts!!

bigjohn

Hey! You beat me to the draw all the time. Let an old guy win one now and then, huh?

Yes, PMB, sounds more like music. I've used Axiom M3s with a 5 wpc tube amp. They sounded wonderful. I also have had various solid state amps which I also like. Some of my favorites from past sand amps include Onkyo M-504, Kenwood KA9100, Yamaha M-80, Anthem PVA series. These are all high powered amps. My favorite amp was a 5 wpc integrated SET tube - Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT. I like the ASL amps because they are so musical and reasonably priced. Now, 5 watts may not be enough for you. If you need the power and have the funds, my dream amp is the Antique Sound Labs 200 Watt Hurricane monoblocks.



Some folks consider this the best amp in the world. AVGuide.com (my favorite review site) says:

"Perhaps once in a decade an amplifier comes along that achieves an entirely new level of musical realism, one that forces the reviewer to redefine the state of the art in reproduced sound. Such a basic monophonic amplifier, and from an unexpected source, is the Hurricane from Antique Sound Labs of China (Hong Kong). It is capable of producing 200 watts, and they are the sort of tube watts that suggest an even higher power. Given its performance, I wouldn't have been surprised to see a pair of these monoblocks to carry a price tag of $20,000, or more. At $4,400 the pair, it is beyond the valley of a bargain- a virtual steal."

Antique Sound Labs are offered by Divertech:

http://www.divertech.com/antiquesl.html


Tube amps clip softly so don't worry about hurting your speakers by reason of their low power output.

Thanks for the thoughts. Would like to see how they'd compare in sound quality / characteristics to similarly priced multi-channel receivers (such as denon 3805). I'm assuming the price/value relationship goes down as use is limited to 2 channel, but for my set up the ,60's are used only for music anyhow.

For tube amps..

10 KHz squarewave with a rotel amp:



10 KHz squarewave into an antique soundlabs SET tube amp



And the 'warm' sound perhaps comes from the rolled off highs after about 14 KHz..



Compared to a rotel RB-1080



Graphs don't tell you how good or bad it'll sound, but it does sort of show what people are talking about here when they say that tube amps are not neutral and that they have distorted sound.

I haven't heard a tube amp, so I'm not discouraging them, but just thought I'd share this info (from stereophile measurements) to show they don't give you "neutral" power.

Yup, that square wave looks like an overdriven solid state amp output, nice and flat on top and bottom - good enough to fry your tweeters.

Solid state amps, even those that do not sound very good, have better looking graphs than tube amps.

Some tube amps sound incredibly good, don't know how good their graphs look. Some tube amps sound like crap. A good tube amp reproduces music in a way that solid state amps can't - good SET amps just sound more musical, produce music which is more involving ... beautiful. JMO.

my dad used to have an old tube amp he got back in the 70's. he had it hooked up to some of those old square, solid speakers that had the wood, chain link design on the front. i cant remember the brands, but they were pretty high-end at the time.. anyway, that stereo used to just crank, and crank good. i used to love watching the tubes get hot in the back of the receiver and put that orange glow on the wall..

and with me playing guitar and being around a lot of diff head and stack speaker combos, i can say without a doubt that tube driven guitar stacks have a much deeper, smoother sound to them. its just much richer than the SS head combos.

now, with all that said, i dont know if i will ever even try a tube driven amp at this point for my HT.. i already have a good quality receiver(onkyo 701), and dont know how compatible a tube amp will be with it.. not to mention, its hard to justify the price for a good tube amp, and i would hate to pay it, and end up not liking it.

so basically, i am just confusing myself now. water is dry, and the sky is full of dead birds.. doenst make sunse, huh?

bigjohn

Pablo Check out this amp if you are intrested in tubes.Its Cayin Ta 30 35 watts per channel and only $699.00.It has gotten some good feedback from customers and good reviews.I myself use an ss amp for my M80's Rotel RB1080.

Here's a very positive review of the Cayin TA 30:

http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/cayin_ta_30.htm

Their mosfet solid state pure class A amp also has good reviews.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_1/cayin-265ai-integrated-amplifier-3-2004.html

I think thats the way I'm going to go if and when the kids ever move out.I will use the extra bed room for a tube set up.The daughter is 20 now so maybe in 10 years or so.I forgot to tell ya the website its www.Cayinusa.com

Anyone who wants to try tube monoblocks which are very compatible with the Axiom M3Ti should think of the Antique Sound Labs WAV8s which go for about $100 each.



Review: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0302/aslwave8.htm

Here's a good review of the Axiom M2 speaker and ASL AQ1003DT amp: http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/axiom_m2i_ep125.htm

But when you add the cost of their lowest cost Pre the LH01 at $399.00 then you are at $599.00 for $100.00 more the Cayin gives you more than 4x the power.Just a thought.

Thanks for all the responses...considering my fairly unconventionally "purist" leanings would love to embark upon a tubes vs ss test (if I could afford). Maybe even w/vinyl (which, when properly recorded to my uneducated ear still sounds better vs cd's). To afford the indulgence, I might have to introduce my daughters to someone named Gates, Dell, or Buffet (though thx to links from 2x6 and wid might be actually be able to afford w/out having the right 6 Lotto number / or an arranged marriage)...seems a bit much just for me to get tasty sounds. thx to all.. to be continued...

Pablo, this has been discussed a few times previously here, and you can do a search if you'd care to. Some tube amps can cause a different sound some of the time, but different here is not "improved", assuming that the object is accurate reproduction. A well-designed tube amp operating within its limits will sound identical to a solid state amp so operating. An illustration of this was the Stereo Review double-blind amp test years ago where among the results was an inability to detect a difference between a solid state receiver and a pair of tube amps(except for the $200/$6,000 price difference).

Where certain tube designs can cause a difference is due to a very high output impedance in such designs, which can result in uneven frequency response as the amp output "follows" the speaker's swings in impedance. A second effect is the 2nd order harmonic distortion when overdriven that some such amps offer as a feature. One of the more interesting discussions of these differences is in this article on John Murphy. Although tube enthusiasts attempt to attach attractive adjectives such as "sweet" or "warm" to these problem areas, an amplifier should be an amplifier, not a musical instrument. Again, if accurate reproduction is the object, you've already got it and obsolescent tube technology has nothing to offer to you.

John, have you listened to any good tube amps, or are you just repeating what some electro-geek said?

Dude, he's pretty much agreeing with you. Face it, tubes aren't accurate. They may be beautiful, wonderful sounding things that do pretty things to music, but they aren't accurate. Lose the knee jerk thing already.

I don't think John is agreeing with me, and I'm pretty sure I'm not agreeing with him.

In my opinion the best tube amps do something noticeable to the music - sounds more, umm, musical. I'm not talking about lush, plummy, treakly distortion, I'm saying it sounds more musical, though there are certainly some SET and 300B amps which are pretty plummy - but that's not to my personal taste.

Now, there are folks who think that all solid state amps sound the same, and John has expanded this proposition to include "well designed" tube amps. I disagree with this proposition as well. That doesn't mean I don't like John, or I'm having a fight with him, or suffering from jerking knees, it's a civilized disagreement about the relationship betwee the technology of audio reproduction and the output, when the output is musical. Now, I am of the opinion that graphs do not necessarily equate to the quality of the musical output. That's the trust your ears thing. I am also dedicated to never producing square waves with any of my amps, same for sine waves although I'm less dedicated to the latter.

The bottom line for me, not to sound too self absorbed, is what works for me. Instead of embracing some theory which conforms with a profound understanding of the electro mechanical theories of sound reproduction, i.e., what should sound better, or the same, I trust my ears.

Here we go again.

BTW, wid, here's another possibility for your tube project, the Paramour kit.



http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/Paramour/paramour.htm

A nice Foreplay preamp will work well with this wee wonder. Here's a nice review http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/paramour-tube-amplifier-4-2001.html

I looked at that a while back but I know I would screw that project up in a New York minute.When I buy it will be put together already.

Tubes... ahh. yeah theyre "it"

Im using SS power and Tube preamp, you get the tube sound and still have the power of a big SS amp. Works out very well! I have the Foreplay preamp with a few of the mods (sweet whispers, HV snubber, clarity caps) and the sound that i get from that little box adds soo much more to my music than the preamp in my C370. Im not sure if i could classify tube sound as being warm, but id say its more natural, clearer and .. well.... better! With the bigger axioms i think that you might be wanting a little more than what a reasonably priced tube amp will have for power, which is why a preamp with tubes is a good place to start. Not to mention you can try many different pairs of tubes without spending a chunk of cash on them.

To be honest though, after adding the foreplay into my system i will admit that i dont have any desire to go back to a SS preamp. But for the time being i want to keep all the power of my SS amp. No tube power amps for me.

2x6 I have a question for you regarding tubes that maybe you can answer, depending on your listening tastes. You say that it makes things sound more "musical" which I can then imagine might be very pleasant for some musical genres. But what does it do on genres like industrial, metal, idm, or drum and bass which some people would argue are not inherently "musical" to begin with?

I think the general opinion here of the folks who either discount, recommend against, or warn against tube amps is very simple. The amp is affecting the recorded sound. What you hear is not the sound that was recorded to the disk. If it were, the tube amp wouldn't be necessary to reproduce it. That's all anyone here is saying when they say they are not as accurate as a (well designed and not overdriven) SS amp. They do impart a clearly audible quality to the music that is not otherwise present in the recorded media. Now, I don't think anyone here is saying they sound bad, or not to give them a try if you are so inclined. I have personally never listened to one, and would like to if I had the chance because I'm sure it probably sounds good on a large range of music. I'm also fairly confident that a large number of people in this world would be extremely happy with a tube amp and it would not leave them wanting, like yourself for example. In some sense though, the amp is acting as a DSP that you can't turn off.

But to be honest, some bands aren't supposed to sound warm or even musical for that matter. I couldn't imagine listening to Skinny Puppy, Ministry, KMFDM, Revco, Aphex Twin, Autechre, Boards of Canada, or even NIN through something that made them sound more warm or musical.

So, my point is, I don't think tubes are for everyone. When people sing the praises of tube amps as the end-all-be-all of music reproduction, I am skeptical. The qualities people attribute to them are not things I always want to have done to my music, that I can't turn off like a DSP if I so choose.

I can't say how industrial, metal sound and am not familiar with "idm." I listen to jazz, rock, classical, celtic witches like Enya and Loreena McKennett. I think drums, cymbals, top hats, rim shots, all sound more realistic through some tube amps.

Now, I'm not putting down solid state amps, I've owned a bunch of them over the years and some sound absolutely wonderful, that is, they reproduce music wonderfully. What is the paradygm for an amplifier? Seems to me that an amp should amplify the signal carrying the music and disappear in the process. I think the argument that a solid state amp succeeds at this just because it uses transistors instead of tubes fails to consider all the variables which effect the sound of the music reproduced. The choice of capacitors, resistors, length of signal path, power supplies, and the interactions between components all impart something to the music. With tube amps, even the choice of tubes can make a significant difference in the music reproduced. I don't think a good tube amp is like a "DSP" mode.

In any case, I think the bottom line is - if you can, sit down and give a good tube amp a listen and see if you like it.

Tube amps are not for everyone, they have their downfalls such as cost, operating costs (retubing) heat and possibly sound.

I believe its hard to explain what tubes add to a system until you have heard them in your own system. On paper they might measure horribly but when you hook that thing up it could sound better than something with the highest marks in the lab tests.

Mmmmm, Fire bottles

Thats not fair 2x6 now you have me lusting over those amps,Damn those are pretty.

Just print out the picture and tape it to the faceplate of your existing SS amp.

Sure would be alot cheaper.I wouldn't replace my ss amp with tubes anyway I would just build a whole new system.Got to wait till the kids are out though should only be a few more years.Thats the plan I have for the one bedroom.

On the high end (both in price and output), Rogue Audio also makes some incredible tube gear.

I have some very difficult speakers, and they were handled with ease by the Stereo 90 - I think that was the model.

wid, my son is 7 months old. How many more months/years do I have until i start dreaming about what I do with his bedroom?

Some more...

I know nothing of tube amps and will likely remain SS for life, but I did come across this company in my search for HT equip. Apparently they've had good reviews and are more inline with a normal persons budget. They've also got some very odd looking speakers.

Perhaps one of these would be a more affordable way to try tubes.

http://www.norh.com/products/index.html

Also some planned ones coming out soon.
(scroll down to about the middle)
http://www.norh.com/news.html

Myself, I'm interested in their mono block if reviews turn out OK.

Cheers, Michael

Pmbuko,Before you know it they are all grown up then you wonder where did all that time go.I'd say in about 25 years or so you could start thinking about taking over the little ones room.My daughter is 20 now and I'm thinking MAYBE in 5 to 10 years I get my own room.

Hi Jag

The new Push/Pull nOrh looks terrific!

That think is a pretty looking baby finger magnet!

No, no! Tube amps are not baby friendly. They are not pet friendly. Tube amps are really high current affairs and if you lick your fingers before poking around a tube amp you're likely to turn yourself into a smoking raisin.

Ya, regardless of where one sits on the solid state v tube debate, I think there'd be little argument about how sweet many of these tube amps can look.

Cheers, Michael