Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Tube tied

Dude, he's pretty much agreeing with you. Face it, tubes aren't accurate. They may be beautiful, wonderful sounding things that do pretty things to music, but they aren't accurate. Lose the knee jerk thing already.

I don't think John is agreeing with me, and I'm pretty sure I'm not agreeing with him.

In my opinion the best tube amps do something noticeable to the music - sounds more, umm, musical. I'm not talking about lush, plummy, treakly distortion, I'm saying it sounds more musical, though there are certainly some SET and 300B amps which are pretty plummy - but that's not to my personal taste.

Now, there are folks who think that all solid state amps sound the same, and John has expanded this proposition to include "well designed" tube amps. I disagree with this proposition as well. That doesn't mean I don't like John, or I'm having a fight with him, or suffering from jerking knees, it's a civilized disagreement about the relationship betwee the technology of audio reproduction and the output, when the output is musical. Now, I am of the opinion that graphs do not necessarily equate to the quality of the musical output. That's the trust your ears thing. I am also dedicated to never producing square waves with any of my amps, same for sine waves although I'm less dedicated to the latter.

The bottom line for me, not to sound too self absorbed, is what works for me. Instead of embracing some theory which conforms with a profound understanding of the electro mechanical theories of sound reproduction, i.e., what should sound better, or the same, I trust my ears.

Here we go again.

BTW, wid, here's another possibility for your tube project, the Paramour kit.



http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/Paramour/paramour.htm

A nice Foreplay preamp will work well with this wee wonder. Here's a nice review http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/paramour-tube-amplifier-4-2001.html

I looked at that a while back but I know I would screw that project up in a New York minute.When I buy it will be put together already.

Tubes... ahh. yeah theyre "it"

Im using SS power and Tube preamp, you get the tube sound and still have the power of a big SS amp. Works out very well! I have the Foreplay preamp with a few of the mods (sweet whispers, HV snubber, clarity caps) and the sound that i get from that little box adds soo much more to my music than the preamp in my C370. Im not sure if i could classify tube sound as being warm, but id say its more natural, clearer and .. well.... better! With the bigger axioms i think that you might be wanting a little more than what a reasonably priced tube amp will have for power, which is why a preamp with tubes is a good place to start. Not to mention you can try many different pairs of tubes without spending a chunk of cash on them.

To be honest though, after adding the foreplay into my system i will admit that i dont have any desire to go back to a SS preamp. But for the time being i want to keep all the power of my SS amp. No tube power amps for me.

2x6 I have a question for you regarding tubes that maybe you can answer, depending on your listening tastes. You say that it makes things sound more "musical" which I can then imagine might be very pleasant for some musical genres. But what does it do on genres like industrial, metal, idm, or drum and bass which some people would argue are not inherently "musical" to begin with?

I think the general opinion here of the folks who either discount, recommend against, or warn against tube amps is very simple. The amp is affecting the recorded sound. What you hear is not the sound that was recorded to the disk. If it were, the tube amp wouldn't be necessary to reproduce it. That's all anyone here is saying when they say they are not as accurate as a (well designed and not overdriven) SS amp. They do impart a clearly audible quality to the music that is not otherwise present in the recorded media. Now, I don't think anyone here is saying they sound bad, or not to give them a try if you are so inclined. I have personally never listened to one, and would like to if I had the chance because I'm sure it probably sounds good on a large range of music. I'm also fairly confident that a large number of people in this world would be extremely happy with a tube amp and it would not leave them wanting, like yourself for example. In some sense though, the amp is acting as a DSP that you can't turn off.

But to be honest, some bands aren't supposed to sound warm or even musical for that matter. I couldn't imagine listening to Skinny Puppy, Ministry, KMFDM, Revco, Aphex Twin, Autechre, Boards of Canada, or even NIN through something that made them sound more warm or musical.

So, my point is, I don't think tubes are for everyone. When people sing the praises of tube amps as the end-all-be-all of music reproduction, I am skeptical. The qualities people attribute to them are not things I always want to have done to my music, that I can't turn off like a DSP if I so choose.

I can't say how industrial, metal sound and am not familiar with "idm." I listen to jazz, rock, classical, celtic witches like Enya and Loreena McKennett. I think drums, cymbals, top hats, rim shots, all sound more realistic through some tube amps.

Now, I'm not putting down solid state amps, I've owned a bunch of them over the years and some sound absolutely wonderful, that is, they reproduce music wonderfully. What is the paradygm for an amplifier? Seems to me that an amp should amplify the signal carrying the music and disappear in the process. I think the argument that a solid state amp succeeds at this just because it uses transistors instead of tubes fails to consider all the variables which effect the sound of the music reproduced. The choice of capacitors, resistors, length of signal path, power supplies, and the interactions between components all impart something to the music. With tube amps, even the choice of tubes can make a significant difference in the music reproduced. I don't think a good tube amp is like a "DSP" mode.

In any case, I think the bottom line is - if you can, sit down and give a good tube amp a listen and see if you like it.

Tube amps are not for everyone, they have their downfalls such as cost, operating costs (retubing) heat and possibly sound.

I believe its hard to explain what tubes add to a system until you have heard them in your own system. On paper they might measure horribly but when you hook that thing up it could sound better than something with the highest marks in the lab tests.

Mmmmm, Fire bottles