Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo M22 Vs. JMlab Chorus 706

I recently purchased a pair of Axiom M22's, and I was very impressed by them. Much more bass than what I expected, based on reading a review. Treble and midrange are great; yea I'm new to all this, so bear with me!
I had visited one of the local high end shops, before I bought the M22's,and the guy said they had just started carrying JMlab speakers. I listened to the Chorus 706, and they sounded great. So I wanted to bring them home and compare them with the Axioms. I have an Onkyo TX-8511 Reciever,low/mid-fi I know, and the Axioms sounded better to me. Because of the dual drivers, the M22's produced more bass, which gave them a more full-range sound. As far as the upper ranges, they were pretty much the same; at least to my 'untrained ears'. Plus the M22's are $50 cheaper, and have a 30 day trial period.
I just wanted to share my experience with these speakers with everyone here, for what it's worth.
In the near future, I plan to upgrade to an NAD, Rotel etc. so that should make my M22's sound even better.
My CD player is an Integra CDC-3.1 ; a 6 cd, carousel. Is this a pretty good piece? Mid-fi, or low-end high-fi?
I would like to have a true high-end system one day, but it will be one piece at a time!

Thanks
Danny

Danny, I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying your M22s. My experience with them over the past 6 months is similar to yours; what a terrific buy!

However, you appear to have bought in to the "low-fi/mid-fi/high-end" line, which, frankly, is nonsense. Your 8511 is excellent and assuming, as is highly likely, that it has adequate power for your room and listening level,no audible improvement will result from "upgrading". Consider spending your money on something that really makes a difference, such as lots more CDs and/or DVDs.

Danny,

I completly agree with JohnK, The receiver you have is a good unit and Johnk is very correct in saying that you will not hear any difference from upgrading the receiver. You will have to spend a lot of money and I do mean a lot of money (not only receiver/seperates but also different speakers) I could take your M22's and play them on my receiver +$5k and you would not hear any differnce from the speakers then playing them on your so called low to mid range unit. Your unit is fine! Enjoy your system, buy lots of DVD's and CD's and don't worry about what you read. You would be wasting your money.

The internet is a really swell place to entertain differing opinions in a civilized fashion, ain't it? JohnK and John H, I don't believe I could disagree with you fellas more; different receivers and/or amps can have a signifigant effect on the sound you hear from the same pair of speakers. And it needn't cost you an arm and a leg.
My experience: my pair of Axiom M60s was originally paired with my three year-old Yamaha 795a receiver (85wpc x5, Dolby Digital, DTS, blah, blah, blah...), and I was initially quite pleased with the results, but after a couple of months, I began to wonder where the real "oomph" (y'know...the muscle!) in the sound was, given the capabilities of the M60s (I'm not too crazy about using my sub for music; prefer straight two-channel, that's just me). This past June, I purchased a used two-channel Parasound amp (HCA-1000A, 125 wpc) in a private sale for $450CDN to connect from the main left and right pre-outs of the Yamaha, and the improvement in the sound was immediately apparent; ah, there's the beef!! No sub needed here...Several weeks later, I bought, again in a private sale, an absolutely beautiful piece of vintage gear (used, natch). The unit is a Marantz 2285 receiver (here's a pic), circa 1977. Price was $315CDN, and the power rating is the same as the Yammie reciever (85wpc), but the 2285 stomps all over the Yammie, and in a most embarassing fashion. The 2285 has copious amounts of power and buckets of head-room, while the Yamaha is comparitively anemic to both the 2285 and the Parasound, so much so that I no longer use it for music at all; it's been demoted to HT use strictly (I'm using the Parasound to power the mains for HT use), and in this role, I remain fully satisfied with it.
The moral of my story, I suppose, is different strokes. If you dig the sound from your mid-line HT receiver, more power to you. If you're floored by the performance of your shiny new Denon flag-ship, knock yourself out. Since I don't have a spare five grand laying about for the latest top-of-the-line, I'll happily live with the really small inconvinience of having to swap banana plugs between my Marantz and my Yamaha connecting to my M60s, depending on the application.
Enjoy the music, gang, and cheers!

DS.

Hi Dave,

It is a great place to agree to disagree,
What you are saying is true to a point, but the M22's are not M-60s so it would be doutfull that he would get any appreciable difference by upgrading the current receiver without upgrading the speakers as well. While I cannot speak for Johnk, but that is my point for original question given he will continue to use the M22's as his main speakers.

I mostly agree with Dave on this one.

There are differences in the electronics, wire gauges, metal types, processor chips, etc. If you listen to two sources (receiver, cd player, or whatever) that are different enough in their configuration, audible differences are not difficult even for a novice listener.

Although i may not be able to hear a difference between very similar components like an Onkyo 797 and a Denon 4802 receiver, i sure can easily tell the difference between that Onkyo and my 10 year old Technics.

John,

I hear you loud and clear, mate, however I remain unconvinced that even the M22s wouldn't benefit from a small (or not so small) outboard amp. The M22s aren't exactly slouches; they're plenty sensitive, and can handle 200wpc, per Axiom's spec. But again I say, different strokes...
Cheers, John!

DS.

Hi Dave,

Very true, again I am admittedly not overly familiar with TX-8511 model, other then going to the Onkyo site and looking over the specs. Which from that it seems that it should do the job for a home stereo more then adequately, it is not an HT receiver so for that job I agree he would benefit from adding some external amps, but do you really feel that there would be an appreciable difference on the sound quality by upgrading the amp at this point for stereo purposes. I agree with Chesseroo comments that he can hear the difference from the 10 year old techniques unit. There have been a lot of advances in audio designs and DSP technology in the past 10 years so I would that you can, but looking at the Onkyo Web site this is not that old of a receiver, it is still current on the web site, and by the specs for stereo it should do the job very well.

I have tried the M22’s recently about 2 weeks ago when my sister bought a pair for her HT and I agree that they are no slouches, but when running them on the 3 different receivers that I have I could not hear any appreciable difference on these speakers from my Yamaha 995 to the Denon 3802 to my 5800. In the end I sold her my 3802 for her system. Am I missing something? What can you tell me about the 8511 that would make you feel that there would be a big benefit, and I am not meaning to go to an HT receiver from the stereo receiver.

Cheers, I look forward to the reply

Yes Dave, I think that this is one we'll simply have to agree to disagree on. Both my personal experience of quite a few years and my reading of technical research indicate that a watt delivered with essentially flat 20-20Khz response at inaudibly low distortion( which is easily achieved) is still a watt, regardless of the name of the manufacturer or the cost of the amplifier. Old equipment which may have deteriorated in performance( but measurably so)is another matter.

Most of us have probably read of the tests where the $200 receiver is paired against $2,000 plus equipment. The listeners at first describe the superiority they hear from the more expensive components in lavish detail. Then the listening becomes blind and the differences disappear along with the knowledge of what was playing.

To clarify my opinion (since my statement on the Onkyo vs. Technics was related to an age difference as the only affecting parameter) even new equipment from separate brands can be compared and differentiated by ear. Not all the blind tests that are performed result in 100% of people incapable of distinguishing differences between equipment.
Take for example 2 cd players, both brand new, one sporting a 192khz Motorola DAC and the other with a Sony 96khz DAC and do the blind test. Then sample a group of people listening to the Denon 4802 and an Onkyo 797.
I would wager that a larger proportion of listeners would distinguish the 2 cd players but not the receivers.

We simply cannot deny that changing the equipment could make a difference, however that change may not necessarily be an 'upgrade'.

Thanks to all who replied! I wanted to add that the Onkyo 8511 has plenty of power (100 watts/140 peak). I did not specify what I was intending to upgrade to; I was considering the NAD C-350(60 watts x2), or the C-370(120 watts x2)Integrated Amp.. I listen to hard rock / blues rock, at moderate levels most of the time. I was given the impression that the 60 watt NAD would give me higher quality sound, and enough power for my needs. The C-350 was my most likely choice, budget wise. I'm looking for a step up in 'quality of sound'. I paid $295.00 for the Onkyo, and the NAD costs $430.00; I obviously don't want to spend that kind of money, if there won't be a great deal of improvement in sound quality. It is very confusing, when you read all these different reports, and hear different opinions. I just want to make an intelligent choice.
Any thoughts on my CD player; Integra CDC 3.1 ?
I appreciate your thoughts and information.

Danny

I don't quite buy into the lo-fi/mid-fi/hi-fi argument myself since it's mainly predicated on price and pedigree (as well as, perhaps, a dose of envy?), but I have also heard a great deal of difference between electronic components.

For example, when I was shopping around for a decent 2-channel setup, I auditioned the NHT 1.5s. I first listened to them hooked up to a NAD C340 amp with a NAD C540 as the source. I was duly impressed since I had really never heard quality sound reproduction before. A few weeks later, I returned to the same store and asked to listen to the 1.5s again. This time, a different salesman hooked them up to a Denon receiver and Yamaha CD/CD-R deck. No offense to owners of Denon or Yamaha, but the setup just did not sound right. The treble was grating and the midrange was lifeless. Wondering if I had 'misremembered' the sound quality of the speakers, I asked the salesman to wire the 1.5s back up to the NAD combo. There was no contest as to which setup sounded better.

On another tangent (I know this post is getting way too long), I own and have paired the M3Tis with equipment costing multiples of its price: Analysis Plus Oval 9 speaker wire, Plinius 8100 integrated, Heart CD6000, which replaced the RadioShack 12 AWG 'megacable', NAD C350, and Pioneer DV333 that I used before. Each new purchase was an 'upgrade' to my ears - but notice what I *didn't* replace: the speakers. I never felt that the M3Ti's were a limiting factor in the performance of my setup.

Gee, so what's the moral?

In my opinion, components do sound different and are priced differently. Whether they're priced *accordingly* is a matter for your ears and wallet to decide. Don't let naysayers from either camp dissuade you from pursuing the kind of sound that *you* want. After all, you're the one who has to live with your system.


p.s. Also consider the used market... Audiogon (www.audiogon.com) has tons of classified ads for audio equipment.

My advice is to upgrade your source component. This doesn't necessarily mean getting rid of your existing CD player. If your CD player has a digital out have you thought about getting an outboard DAC.

Think about it this way. If you take the money you spend on a CD changer and spread it out between it's parts, you can see that there is alot of money spent on mechanical parts that in no way aid the musical signal, in fact they probably degrade it.
Now take that theory and apply it to a DAC. Virtually all your money is spent on parts that will influence the musical signal, plus you get to keep the convience of the 6 disc changer.
You may think that a DAC is too much money. There are, however, some companies that make some very affordable DACs. I have a Channel Island Audio DAC that I bought for $350 including a digital cable. It's a very small box that would be easy to hide if you were so inclined. There are also other companies like MSB and Cambridge Audio that make some affordable DACs. Many of them are upgradable too.

I hope this was of some help to you.

An intersting post that has created an excellent debate.

Here is my view on this - your choice of amplifiers is more of a lateral move than an upgrade. Your present Onkyo is a decent piece, and to upgrade to a Rotel or NAD would be noticeable, but not significant. You may want to aim a little higher if you are able to justify the expense.

As for the speakers, JMLabs make a range of speakers, from the affordable to the astonishingly expensive. As with most mfg'ers who have a vast line, some are better than others. They do make some excellent models, and some....less than excellent models. In your pro/con debate, you seem to have chosen the winner, so you should go with that.

Your main area for upgrades as I see it is the CD player. Multi disc units are convenience appliances, and single units that are better suited to your task are available. This of course depends on your needs/wants, and maybe you want the multi disc unit. This unit would fit with your amp in the upper end of lowfi, while your speakers are in the midfi realm...to use your terms and scales.

The many debate as to whether your speakers would reveal a difference using better amps, CD units, etc is interesting. The answer is a definite...maybe - depending on the level of the replacement pieces. Simply stated, by replacing ANY piece with a far superior piece, the difference should be audible. Yes, you should hear the audible difference of a better amp, and it would not be limited to a cetain price range/quality build of your speakers. Having been in this business for many decades, I can state that expensive speakers and mediocre source/amps is less satisfying that the opposite. I have 2 systems of differing quality/price points. By moving pieces in and out, I have proven this to many folks who ask the same quality.

But your mileage may vary. You did generate a very interesting, eloquent debate!

BBIBH,

You say my CD player is the component to change; how godd of a player is this in your opinion? I paid $300.00 for it.
I do enjoy the feature of playing random tracks from 6 discs, but if I would get better sound quality from a single disc unit, I would get one. Can you give me two or three brand/model #'s of players that would give me a very noticable improvement in sound quality? My budget max. is 500.00 to $800.00.
You talked about "aiming higher than the NAD or Rotel Amps", does this apply to a cd player also? If I have to spend over a grand to get any noticable difference, I may have to live with what I have for a while?

It always comes down to,"how much is it gonna cost me"? :-)

Thanks Again
Danny

Danny, once a CD has been put into position to be read by the laser, whether that's been done by a human hand or by a mechanical device, that part of the process is over. The CD is read identically and the sound is audibly identical. If you have, or plan to have, a large collection of CDs one of the changers that hold several hundred discs might be considered in the future.

Now JohnK... That might be true if your single disc and multi-disc player both used identical pickup, electronics, amp, DAC, and output circuits. But please don't try and tell me that a $150 6-disc Sony changer is going to sound 'audibly identical' to a $600 or $900 JoLida single disc player that uses tubes in the pre-amp output stage. If you are using the digital output on a CD player then you are more likely to get similar sound since you are using the exact same DAC (the one in your reciever) However some CD players handle error correction and such differently and will produce different sound even out the digital output. But if you are using the analog outputs all bets are off, because some use really crappy (and probably cheap) DACs, and others use good DACs (HDCD capable, or Burr-Brown ones come to mind) that cost more.

You are exactly correct, but it goes beyond what you mention. The electronics section aside, the mechanical transports are very important to ensuring how a piece will perform

The fact of the mechanical interactions and parts play a significant part in translating the information to sound. By the sheer fact that a $150 Sony (to use your example) single changer must accomplish much more than that of the single disc $600-900 Jolida (...again, your example) means that much less attention budgetwise is paid to the transport mechanisms. Add in the fact the machine must now deal with multiple discs, and how does a mfg'er accomplish proper rigidity when the costs are to be controlled?

Wishful thinking!

Anyway, the CD player referenced is a decent model, from a mfg'er who produced decent equipment. The original post was looking to make a lateral change of amps. He must decide if/what he wants to replace - and the features he requires.

You are absolutely correct - cost is an important factor.

You mentioned the phrase " noticeable difference". As you may have read here, most changes will be noticeable. That does not mean better or worse, but you will notice the difference.

You have to determine where you want to go, before you randomly upgrade. That can be an expensive journey!

You no doubt have seen many posts for equipment, from many people. There are as many opinions and comments as you want to read. I would suspect that for your budget you could upgrade your system, piece by piece. You can find single disc players of good quality such as Cambridge Audio, Creek, Roksan, Rega - albiet they may stretch you budget for some models. A similar list can be made for amps. I am not familiar with multi disc units, but I am sure they can also be had.

This may sound funny, but why do you feel the need to look for upgrades? Excuse me if I missed this in your posts. Maybe if you can answer what is lacking, you can decide the approach

I think it's time you did a little auditioning.

Find a good dealer who carries some of the products you're pondering. You might first audition an amp upgrade. See if you can take them home and try them in your own setup. This is important because there is no way to tell what kind of improvment a component will make, without inserting that component into your system. Also audition some new CD players and a DAC. A good dealer will let you take some of these things home. You should probably reward that dealer with a purchase, however, as it's not good practice to audition many things, only to later go find something else on the internet. It's all about building a good relationship with a dealer. Plus the dealer has probably heard countless different systems, and can more acurately point out weaknesses in your system. Getting advice from us can only take you so far. Most of us are limited in our experience with different products.

So go out and try some new things, and then you will never question your purchase.

BBIBH,

What I'm looking for is true high fidelity sound; the best that my BUDGET will allow. I want to know if a 500-$800 cd player,(Creek, NAD,etc.) ran through the Onkyo, will reveal things from a cd that my Integra cannot, due to inferior electronics? Yes, No, Maybe?? If not, then my sytem is the best that I can afford at this time; and to get any improvement would cost more than a thousand bucks.My initial thought of replacing my Onkyo reciever with an integrated amp was not well thought out; Listening to CD's is what is most important to me. Again, a single tray would be alright with me, IF it will give me better quality sound.

Once again, thanks to all of you for your help.

Danny

Yes, a $500-$800 CD player will make a noticable improvement in your setup. Music Hall makes a CD player in that price range that is supposed to be quite good. Also a small company called !ah makes a cd player which is a modified Marantz with a tubed output stage. You can read reviews of this player in the archives at enjoythemusic.com.

I just bought a new DAC that I have paired with an el-cheapo 5 disc changer. It improved the sound greatly. Bass got so much tighter, with the bass actually sounding like notes, instead of a jumbled mess. Also brass has so much more presence than it used to. I love this little DAC. I can also upgrade the power supply later. I also plan on getting a better transport at some point. I like the flexability of being able to upgrade transport and DAC seperately.

Good luck

Danny you still seem set on the idea that $$ equals quality. It does not.
(e.g. a more expensive cd player than the one that you have will be better just because it costs more therefore it must SOMEHOW have better parts, or better processing or better....is simply not always true...anyone who tells you differently is trying to sell you something or are themselves blinded by this fallacy). I would bring up another example of the cable types and costs vs. sound "improvements" but we've beaten that horse to death already.

Spending more MAY get you better equipment and it may not. Buying any item that is not the same model that you have right now MAY sound better but only YOU could hold an opinion on that.
The only thing i could say with a reasonable amount of confidence is that a different cd player than what you have MAY sound different, but not necessarily better.

You can get alot of other people's opinions on what equipment they think sounds better than others but ultimately your equipment, listening room and listening preferences are unique to you. Therefore, someone else's opinion of a particular piece of equipment sounding better may not be valid for your circumstances.

Audition audition audition. Take the other cd players home and try them for yourself and only that will truly answer your questions.

I am interested in hearing more detailed impressions of the jmlabs 706 vs. axiom m22. I have found a jmlab dealer nearby and will audition the 706 in a few days. I am also considering the axiom m22. Any more info as to how the two compare would be much appreciated.

vmrao,
I'm not qualified to give you the type of detailed info you may be seeking on the JMlab Chorus 706. What I can tell you is what I thought of them. They sounded great; the midrange and treble were identicle, to my ears, but they were a little weak as far as bass goes. BUT, the Axiom has 2 bass drivers, and the 706 has only 1. So, the Axiom had a better 'full-range sound'; I like a healthy amount of bass, not too much, and if my subwoofer was broke, I could live with the bass supplied by the M22.
I chose the Axioms because of this, and they were $50 cheaper,AND you have 30 days to try them out!
Thats pretty much all I can say; I'm sure you will be pleased with the JMlabs, and the Axioms. In the end your ears will decide which is best for you.
Good luck.

Today I auditioned the JMLab Chorus 707. Very solid performer, very pleased, only concern is bass is a little weak, extension is only down to about 55 hz and doesn't go low enough. Really interested in axiom m22 and maybe a sub.