Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo M50s: what's the extra driver supposed to do?

Finally broke down?

Congratualations. Hope you like them.

We will have to have a speaker face off here in the DC area with my M22s and your M50s.

They arrived yesterday. First impressions....

Palestrina, Missa Papae Marcelli (Preston, Archiv): sometimes the sopranos seem too resonant and harsh, something I've noticed on other systems too.

Mussorgsky, Pictures at an Exhibition (Pogorelich, DG): some high-frequency noise (breathing, some kind of striking ringing in the piano) that I hear in other speakers is not audible. I suppose that's a good thing.

Dave Brubeck, Time Out: I hear some notes in the bass I never noticed before.

Bach, Organ works (Schubler Chorales etc.) (Preston, DG): the bass melodies move pretty well and the notes are even.

Part, Tabula Rasa (Shaham, DG): the solo violin sounds a little bit like those old gramophones (the kind that the RCA dog listens to), but that's an exaggeration. This quality is the only real concern I have. Today I don't notice it as much, though.

Prokofiev, Violin Sonatas (Repin/Berezovsky, Erato): at one point I was doing something else and the violin started playing pizzicato. I was startled because I momentarily thought I heard a real violin. I wonder why a speaker should be better at reproducing plucking than bowing.

Any advice on placement (distance, toe-in, etc.)?

David

Mine needed to be about 8 or 9 ft apart, slightly toed in to really have a good soundstage. When I had them closer together, things just did not work well. They're only a little ways away from the wall, but they sound good there.

Oh, that's pretty far apart. How far away from them do you sit? I have about 6' between them and am sitting about 8' away right now.

Thanks!

From the centerpoint between the two, I think I'm only about 6 ft away. Yeah, I was a little disappointed too when I had them that close together (still better than my old speakers, not quite as good as I wanted them to be) but now I think they're fantastic.

>>From the centerpoint between the two, I think I'm only about 6 ft away. Yeah, I was a little disappointed too when I had them that close together (still better than my old speakers, not quite as good as I wanted them to be) but now I think they're fantastic.

I second that. Had my M2's about 6 feet apart, sitting 9 feet away, imaging was good but not great and had to toe them in to get any kind of soundscape. Moved them further apart (roughly the same separation as distance from speaker baseline to ears) and the soundscape opened right up, even with the speakers at 90 degrees to the wall.

Never had that happen before. They sound real nice though...

Hmmm, when I moved mine that far apart, the soundstage broke up. Still experimenting...

What's the relationship of inter-speaker distance to room size? What's the effect of toe-in?

Thanks!

>>What's the relationship of inter-speaker distance to room size? What's the effect of toe-in?

I think the relationship is a second-order one, ie distance from the speakers is usually a function of room size (but not always), and separation of the speakers is a function of how far away you sit.

The rule of thumb seems to be that your distance from the line between the speakers should be roughly the same as the separation between the speakers or a bit more. Some people favor the "equilateral triangle" but not many.

I used to think that toeing in the speakers would compensate for having them too widely separated but that does not really seem to be the case.

You toe the speakers in a bit if the off-axis response is not enough and if toeing in improves the imaging -- but it seems like you lose something when you toe them in too far. Don't understand why that is yet but my system definitely sounds better with the speakers pointing straight away from the wall even though that puts me about 20 degrees off-axis.

Try this if you have Avia. Play the Main speaker setup L/R phase test. Set your SPL meter on fast response. Then set the range on the meter, and adjust the volume on your receiver to get the needle near the center. I used 70dB. As the phase test plays, sit in your listening position, and move the meter left and right in front of you. Move it 1/2", and wait for an out of phase cycle, then 1/2" more, and wait for another out of phase cycle. When you get a fast, backward, needle deflection during the out of phase part of the test, you've found the sweet spot (actually, it's more like a center line). I get a -3 to -5dB backwards deflection. I was sitting 3 feet to the right of that line, and trying to get good soundstage. It wasn't working too well.

This post by Guy Kuo explains it. It also tells you how to use the delay settings to move the sweet spot. (look for his reply from 07/03/03 06:14 PM)

Trust me, this works. Getting the placement just right is tough enough without sitting in the wrong place while you are trying to do it.

I don't have an SPL meter and what's Avia? This sounds extremely interesting but probably beyond my immediate means. Thanks!

David