Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Another one takes a chance...

I have been an outside observer for some time now, but I finally decided to post a message now that I ordered some speakers. Many hours have been spent reading different forums, but none seem to give the slightest bit of anecdotal evidence to back up a user's comments like this one does. So, Kudos for that; which is also what lead me to take the 'plunge' into buying axiom speakers. For me, I now have a pair of M60s, the VP150 and some QS8s coming

Now that I have speakers on the way, most of my HT upgrade is done, but now I come to the A/V receiver. I am considering either the Yammie RX-V1500, or the Denon 3805. Both have all the features I will need, but the Denon is about $400 more than the Yammie. Unfortunately, I do not have time to do the A/B test. Since I felt comfortable buying speakers without doing any testing, I figure I could be successful in this venture as well--using this forum. To all that wish to, please post your comments about either receiver regarding listening experience, quality of the receiver, ease of use, etc.. I am very technical, so don't be afraid to approach it in that mannor, I am pretty good at reading between the lines too. Also, if you know of any comparison tests from audiophile gurus, then please post the link for me to read.

Thanks in advance!

P.S. I don't need any help on the TV upgrade, I am waiting for June when Samsung will release their new 1080p DLPs...<drool>...I figure that will last me until 1080p becomes the norm, or they solve the Blu-Ray / HD-DVD format battle (looks like Sony will probably win) to enable the HD remastering companies (like, Lowry Digital Images, or Ascent Media Group) to commit to one of the formats and start making the new DVDs; then finally I can experience true HD (1080p) . But boy are the remastered DVDs going to be expensive <sigh>. ...Sorry got excited, this is a topic for another discussion. In case you are interested here is a URL to get you started on doing searches about the new DVDs coming out:BluRay FAQ.

I would save $400 in a heart beat, until some one shows me a concrete $400 advantage of the denon.

Likewise... that was a major feature in my purchase of the 525 a few years ago. Of course, that was also partially because Yamaha's website (at the time, don't know about now) was almost impossible to navigate to find a receiver equivalent.

I just received the same set-up you ordered. You will not be dissapointed. Get the Pink Floyd discs ready. --Andy

Did you have a chance to look a H/K receivers? I just received my 635 today and its sweet. I will probably have it set up tonight.

Sean, either unit (or an HK) will work well. I think youare comparing apples to oranges thoguh. You might want to compare the Yammy 1500 to the Denon 2805. The 2805 still has a bit more horsepower, but it is a closer match to the 1500 than the 3805. Also the 2805 is less expensive.

Welcome aboard....


Denon 2805
M60's, EP350, VP150, 4 Qs8's

Welcome, Sean.

CompUSA is blowing out HK models right now for VERY good prices - you might take a look.

Other than that, I routinely agree with Ray. It eases the impossible task Mrs. Ray faces.

Any of the models mentioned will power your new system gracefully.

I actually just went over each of the manuals for the Yamaha, Denon and even H/K again.

The reason I left H/K AVR-635 out of it was that for the money both the Yamaha and Denon seemed to offer more. I could use the extra optical in, plus since the VP150, and QS8s are 6 Ohm speakers, it caused me concern that the H/K only wanted 8 Ohm inputs. As well, I had concern for the 75W power rating. Personally, I felt better about the Denon and Yammies higher headroom, plus the THD seems a little high on the H/K. But that is just me... So, I was leaning toward the Yammie or Denon.

Ray, I think you might have the 3805 and 2805 backwards, or I misread your reply to me. According to the Denon website the 3805 is the beefer one with 120W x7 RMS 20-20K @8 Ohms. This matches the Yamaha RX-v1500's output as well. In doing a side be side comparison of features and specs the two are almost identical, except the Denon adds an extra Component input, which I don't need. But, the Yammie has a little bit less THD being .04% instead of .05% for the full frequency RMS rating (not like I could tell the differnce), but costs $400 less if I were to buy online (I can for sure tell the difference there).

Both have a proprietary auto speaker/soundfield set up...

I simply have to go with price on this one. Yammie wins!

Thanks to all for you input!

I wouldn't be surprised if the HK was the most powerful of all of them. HK states their wattage very accurately. Denon and Yamaha I believe state their wattage based only on 2 channels. Plus 10 "stated" watts is rather insignificant. I would go with the Denon, but thats only cause I'm a Denon guy (that and I can't get the fact that Yamaha also manufactures dirtbikes, ATV's, drums, etc... out of my head). Any one of those units would probably do a fabulous job.

Ya know what Luce - I was mistaken. The 2805 lines up with the 1400. Glad you caught the error.

Sean, the receivers that you've considered are excellent and all provide transparent reproduction. It may be, however, that you're underestimating the new HK635(or upcoming 435). Keep in mind that the power rating of the HK is with all channels driven simultaneously at full power for at least five minutes, while the others, along with most manufacturers, use a rating with two channels driven simultaneously, as permitted by the FTC regulation. Although the two channels driven simultaneously at full power rating is more realistic when considering what happens in the real world of home usage, the difference should be taken into account, which would make the power ratings very similar. Inadequate power for home usage is rarely a problem and almost certainly wouldn't happen with the 635, including at lower speaker impedances.

As far as distortion goes, the differences of hundredths of a percent mentioned are totally meaningless in practice. Testing indicates that in reproduction of music distortion has to exceed 1% or so before it becomes audible. Typical distortion ratings are all far below audibility.

Also note that the 635(and 435)have the new automatic calibration/room equalization system developed by Dr. Toole's colleagues. It's different from others in using both farfield and nearfield measurements and apparently uses the difference between the two as a measure of the room effects, which it then compensates. It also apparently equalizes the sub output so that the lowest bass frequencies, which generally are most in need of equalization, are also compensated. On another board a new owner reported that a bass peak on the order of 20dB was reduced to about 4dB and the overall sound significantly improved after the equalization. Of course, it's your judgment as to whether any of this is meaningful in the light of price differences.

Hmmm, then it is very misleading that Yamaha would put the x7 after the 120W full frequency RMS rating their manual says it has. But in growing up with H/K, I know their quality is rock solid, but they have always charged more due to their name. In fact, you can get factory outlet receivers (much like here at axiom with their factory store) for a discounted prices. So, I have a feeling the way they are rating their output is similar.

Thanks for the input JohnK. My above post was created before I read yours.

I will take into consideration that the H/K has a more accurate RMS rating. I know that the THD reading is hundredths of a percent at 8 Ohms, but that sky rockets when you push it to 6 or 4 Ohms. In most cases with receivers at this level, 6 Ohms would give about .7% which is pushing the 1% limit. My issue is that H/K doesn't have a spec for driving it at 6 Ohms nor do they suggest that you should drive it at anything less than 8 Ohms...

As far as the auto calibration goes, I plan to use it to quickly give me a something to work with, then fine tune it afterward.

I really appreciate the insite you have given me with H/K, maybe they aren't just all name I will have to ponder these things for a bit more I think before I buy anything. But not so long as to not have it for my speakers :P

Oh and Ray, GO STEELERS!!!

Sean, just one point: the HK power rating isn't "more accurate", it's simply based on a different standard, and one that's less in accord with real-world listening requirements in the home. All power ratings have to be accurate for receivers/amplifiers sold in the U.S., otherwise they'd be in violation of the FTC reg.

L.K.
I too just took this same plunge, after weeks of agonizing and hours spent reading everything online that I could find about the Axioms, and plenty of other brands.
And, like yourself, it was the people on these forums that convinced me that they would be the right choice.
Already have the M60's and the Qs8's hooked up.
I just got word that the SP150 and EP350 and M2I's left today from the outlet portion of my order. (A Day ahead of time, even though I changed color choices at the last minute!)
You are going to love them, They are nothing short of astonishing.
I know it has been said over and over and over again on these pages, but the only thing I listened to that were close were indeed the B&W 703's. The day I heard those was very depressing, because I knew that there was no way that I was going to be able to afford them, but they were by leaps and bounds the best "reasonable" thing I had heard.
Then I came across this forum and everyone was comparing the M60's to those 703's.
And they are right. They are incredible.
And the best part?
I've got entire rest of the system that I wanted, and it is STILL LESS than the cost of the 703's all by themselves!
The Qs8's are completly insane.
You are going to be loving life.
Have Fun!
TjB

You may want to check out this link. He is a good guy from another forum I frequent. May be a good start on the Denon search. Let me know how it goes.

http://forum.av123.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6775

>>My issue is that H/K doesn't have a spec for driving it at 6 Ohms nor do they suggest that you should drive it at anything less than 8 Ohms...

You are correct about the specs, but the funny thing is that the most common recommendation for driving M80 (4 ohm) speakers is either an HK or a Denon. The HK really is much more capable than the specs would imply.

Anyways, like everyone else is saying any receiver in that range is going to do a great job. Just keep in mind that for 4 ohm loads Denon and HK tend to be recommended over Yamaha (admittedly based on anecdotal evidence).

As far as I know they're all fine with 6 ohms. I guess I would probably cast another vote for a Denon 2805, at least that's what I would get if I couldn't get my HK again.

Anyways, try 'em all out, poke at all the remotes, see which one you think looks best. They're all really good. Unfortunately the specs are all written to somewhat different standards so a spec-based comparison isn't going to do much for you. A feature-based comparison is still OK as long as you focus on the features you want. Denon (and probably Yamaha) have more options for A/B surround speakers, for example. HK on the other hand has their Logic7 matrix mode for stereo content which is still my favorite way to listen to 2 channel CDs.

Denon and Yamaha have a more elegant look -- HK is very modern with a cool blue LED in the volume control. What the heck, it all matters

I, too, post at av123, and can confirm that the person in question is one of the nicer, more reliable, fellows over there. Were I not in the position I'm currently in, I'd be jumping at that offer, with no qualms whatsoever about trusting the seller.

I have the Yamaha RX-V1400. By far my biggest complaint is the "multi-channel" input is a toggle selection, not discrete. This means it is impossible to automate switching to SACD/DVD-A via a remote control macro.

I also don't like the menu design and navigation -- it's very complicated. You eventually get use to it. The manual is poorly written.

The YPAO auto-EQ mostly works, but I've seen it do some odd things that are probably errors.

I think newer auto-EQ systems like the new HK system are probably better.

Other than those things the Yamaha sounds fine, and it's a good deal for the money.

"I have the Yamaha RX-V1400. By far my biggest complaint is the "multi-channel" input is a toggle selection, not discrete. This means it is impossible to automate switching to SACD/DVD-A via a remote control macro"

joe, i have the rxv1300, and on the remote, way up on the right hand corner is the 6 channel button. is this what you're looking for, or am i confused. i can toggle between the two modes with this button.
dan

The problem is it only toggles on/off (to opposite the current state, whatever that is). There's no discrete command for "multichannel on" or "multichannel off" that works independent of the current state.

By contrast for main power, there are discrete on/off commands. E.g., regardless of whether it's currently on or off, you can tell it "power on".

The lack of discrete commands for all functions is a well known problem for virtually all remotely-controlled home electronics. It's slowly changing, but you still often find "toggle only", non-discrete functions.

No amount of programming by any remote can work around it. The only solution is mfgs must implement discrete commands for all functions.

They don't do it because it makes design of the factory remote easier. They want the fewest buttons, and a single toggle button is 1/2 the buttons for discrete on/off. For each toggle-only command they could provide a separate discrete codes. However there's little incentive beyond providing just sufficient commands for the factory remote, which typically is toggle-oriented.

Hi joema,

I was surprised to find, after Ray beat me into submission, that implementation of the MX-700 universal remote actually helped this kind of situation signficantly. While the native remotes for my devices did NOT have some of these discrete commands, I found that they did exist in remote setup files but were undocumented.

Apologies if you've pursued this already. It was a revelation to me at the time.

Yes, often there are undocumented discrete commands. Unfortunately I've already contacted Yamaha, and there's no such command for multichannel on/off on the RX-V1400.

I also have an MX-700, and it's great. But even it cannot solve the "toggle-only problem".

These mundane things often have a bigger day-to-day impact than other theoretical receiver differences.

Sorry, I thought you probably had it covered already, but that mentioning it might be worth a shot. Accentuate the positive.

joema,

Before you give up, it might be worth a trip to Remote Central and tio have a look through the "Philips Pronto & Pronto Pro" and MX-700 .mxd/.mxf files. I would be amazed if someone hasn't come up with the discretes you need for the Yammie. Don't forget - if you can't find the specific model, try other models. They should all use the same codes. A quick look at the Pronto files yielded an awfully large number of 1400 and 1500 files. Discretes might be important enough to set aside a couple of hours to to search.

Also, search the "Discrete Hunter" and "Home Theater Master" forums over there.