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1080p is not the standard, it's just currently the contender with the best resolution. Also in the ring are 1080i and 720p.

Oh okay. I thought the new wave of 19xx by 10xx HDTV sets was the standard. Isn't that what Blu-ray and HDDVD are gonna be? I'm so confused. So if you buy a 1080P set and 720p becomes the standard then your TV set will downconvert the signal to a 720p picture? Or what about if you have a TV with a native resolution of 720p or 1080i and 1080p DOES become the standard. Does your 720p (or 1080i) TV become as useless as a standard tube tv?

Video scaling, my friend. And lots of it. The people with the 1080p should be ok, except for the fixed pixel types. Oh wait, that's almost everyone, these days. Oops!

There's a reason I ain't buying yet.

Yes, that there is no standard.

Which is my point exactly.

Bren R.

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*laughs* Thanks for the primer.

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I'm just being an ass as usual.
Yes you are in broadcast field. We all know that.

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So what we're looking at is some extra signal processing (unsharp masking) we used to do the same thing in film by shooting a blurred positive (slide) and two sharp negatives, you superimpose them on high contrast paper (like Kodak Polycontrast IV RC) - you get blurred fields of similar color (like subtle face tones), yet you get crisp edge detail. It's a great way of selectively blurring blotchy skin tones, etc - in video it works similarly, regaining lost edge detail without making the entire picture pixelated

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True...but step back from the picture and look... even though technology is used to smoothen out the picture...to ones eyes it still does look better in most cases. Many AVS-er including I have done many many get togethers and projected many DVD vs HTPC configurations and most of the time the crowd does always pick the HTPC configured picture. Heck come over to Toronto and I will gladly show a A-B test. Heck even bring over that highly praised DVD player your talking about. So you are saying we are doing mass hysteria again? Should I take out my Kimber cable again?

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It's misleading to say no scaling occurs. It occurs in the software signal processor. It's just been moved from whatever is inside the cheap projector to the PC processor. You're still blowing up a 720x480D1 signal to 1600x1200 (or whatever res your projector runs at) - you're just sending it a more contrasty image to make up for the inherent softening. You can't blame a DVD-P for outputting an NTSC signal just because you want to use it on something developed for computer output

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I am not misleading anyone. Re-read what I wrote. Of course scaling occurs...on the HTPC...as I clearly stated. As I said earlier not all chips are created equal. You either use whats in the HTPC or whats on the DVD player or whats on the projector itself.

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You missed the point. No matter how much you scale up standard resolution off a DVD, you don't unlock hidden resolution on the disc, you interpolate the information that's already there. Any signal can be scaled to any size, but it's only as good as the original video stream.

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So your saying the $50 DVD should have the same quality picture as the $1000 HTPC? Even though many of us actualy see a difference...were making it up. The point is not unlocking hidden resolution but cleaning up the current signal...taking out noise if any..smoothing out edges...etc.

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Again, the Daytek player puts out an NTSC (television) signal. If someone is looking for a signal that isn't at a standard broadcast resolution, something in the chain better be good at scaling it, be it software, or hardware inside the projector. If the projector was worth it's salt, it would look just fine whether fed from a Mac G5 or a Koss My First DVD Player. The only thing that site you sent shows me is that the projector was a low-end consumer/business model that does a terrible job of upres'ing.

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It comes back to your original statement which I addressed.

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Rather than a HTPC for day to day watching... why not just pick up a cheap $50 DVD player? ...it's a lot more expensive to put together a system to be able to play back video with any sort of quality than it is to just get the cheapest Koss/Daytek DVD-P on the market

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dabingles and turbodog1 was exploring the feasability of having a HTPC to give a better picture than the standard DVD player. And yes they do. You can use your insight and technology being in "broadcasting" but still a HTPC still will look better than that $50 DVD you are talking about. Yes it is more expensive but the people exploring that option knows full well of that cost and it was not an issue.
You should get out of your god complex...and actually check out some of the technology out there. Yes you are in broadcasting but you are not an expert in the technology of scalers..neither am I.

Not only are some supposed 'experts' on here are deaf...but I guess blind too.

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dabingles and turbodog1 was exploring the feasability of having a HTPC to give a better picture than the standard DVD player. And yes they do. You can use your insight and technology being in "broadcasting" but still a HTPC still will look better than that $50 DVD you are talking about. Yes it is more expensive but the people exploring that option knows full well of that cost and it was not an issue.

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Again - there are many ways to match an NTSC signal to an odd resolution on a display device. One way is through the DVD-P itself, one way is through a computer processing the video signal, one way is through a line doubler, and one way is through onboard hardware on the display itself. Something has to be good at the scaling - it doesn't matter much what it is. If you take my parents' $65 Koss DVD-P that mom ordered off the Shopping Channel and feed a straight video feed into a projector with a good scaler, you'll get a good picture. If you take a DVD-P with a good scaler and send the scaled image to a projector with a bad scaler (that won't have to touch the signal), you'll get a good picture, and lastly, if you use a PC to read the DVD, and output a scaled image to a projector with a poor scaler, you'll get a good picture. What I'm saying is that the computer guys will use a HTPC, "separates" guys will use a line doubler, gear guys will use a DVD-P with onboard scaling, etc... a HTPC isn't the be all and end all, it is one solution, kind of an awkward one from my standpoint.

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You should get out of your god complex...and actually check out some of the technology out there.

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Temper, temper! And I do end up messing with a lot of different projectors... at conferences and conventions, unfortunately they haven't invented the affordable mobile Jumbotron yet. And if you're talking about PC-based video techology - I've had a wee bit of experience with video coming off computers, what flavour do you prefer... composite over BNC? SDI? What platform? Pinnacle Deko 500? Sports Deko? Inca Inscriber Studio? Moving video/clip playback/digital disc recorders? How about Drastic VVWs, Media100, AVID(&Express), Final Cut Pro, DSR-DR1000s under RS-232 or iLink control. I've been trying to be modest, but my CV that I just updated for a new gig is over 2 pages just regarding equipment knowledge. I've been around - I've set phase, colour timing, pedestal, video divisions - on a good, well adjusted CRT I don't even need a waveform/vectorscope to set one up.

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Yes you are in broadcasting but you are not an expert in the technology of scalers..neither am I.

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What is there to know about scaling video that can't be infered from a knowledge of video and systems? Do I have to try every available product to understand what does and doesn't work, and how well each solution will fit a given problem? No, for the same reason I don't have to touch every flame I see to find out if it's hot.

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Not only are some supposed 'experts' on here are deaf...but I guess blind too.

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And now you lash out because your solution is not my solution. A blanket statement was made that HTPCs "r00l a11" which is just not true. Just because a solution has a cool factor (it's much cooler to tell someone what processor, video card and software you've hand-rolled than to tell them what off-the-shelf DVD-P or line doubler you're using... has that "I did the R&D on this myself" ring to it) doesn't mean it's the final word.

As for my vision - I'm not blind. I do have a small depression in my differential between yellow and white, but I'm above normal male average for distinguishing in the green-blue area of the spectrum. At least that's what my vision tests from the Canadian Military showed.

Bren R.

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you take my parents' $65 Koss DVD-P that mom ordered off the Shopping Channel and feed a straight video feed into a projector with a good scaler, you'll get a good picture. If you take a DVD-P with a good scaler and send the scaled image to a projector with a bad scaler (that won't have to touch the signal), you'll get a good picture, and lastly, if you use a PC to read the DVD, and output a scaled image to a projector with a poor scaler, you'll get a good picture. What I'm saying is that the computer guys will use a HTPC, "separates" guys will use a line doubler, gear guys will use a DVD-P with onboard scaling, etc... a HTPC isn't the be all and end all, it is one solution, kind of an awkward one from my standpoint.

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I never said it was a 'be all and end all'. It was you that had the blanket statement that said your DVD-P would do better than the HTPC dabingle was going to create. He did not mention money, or the possible pain to settup a HTPC. He was exploring the benefit of having a HTPC vs a $50 DVD-P you mentioned as an example. All that you mentioned about which hardware has the better scaler I am in aggreement and I did clearly state that in my earlier message too.

Your point of "Rather than a HTPC for day to day watching... why not just pick up a cheap $50 DVD player?" is rather misleading. A basiC PC setup with at least a ATI or GFORCE card will present a better picture than your cheap $50 player...I would not say 100% of the time but a pretty high amount. Yes I know your going to say most projectors have a decent scaler. I would disagree with you there because the projector in question by Dabingles is a $700 projector. Most sub $1000 projectors have a poor scaler outside the Infocus X1 which does have a faroudja scaler.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm?mfg_id=any&res_id=any&ar=0&td=&is=&met=1&bll=any&bul=any&cll=any&cul=any&wll=any&wul=any&prll=any&prul=1000&an=0&dvi=-1&trig=1
Most of these projector will not fare well in a Home Theater environment outside of the Infocus X1 and the Benq 6100.

But yes if you do get a $300+ DVD-p with supperb scalers then yes there is no need for a HTPC. But going back to your original statement that the $50 DVD would fare better than a HTPC...even standard PC output...is a misleading statement too.

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Temper, temper! And I do end up messing with a lot of different projectors... at conferences and conventions, unfortunately they haven't invented the affordable mobile Jumbotron yet

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Its merely an observation...and a few other share the same feeling. Why would I waste time getting angry..I am merely debating.

The different projectors you have been tickering around with are high lumen business projector. Most projectors in that category do not fare well in a HT environment because of the dismal contrast ratio. Most HT projectors have lumen outputs less than 1200 and have contrast ratios that are 2000:1 or higher.

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I've had a wee bit of experience with video coming off computers, what flavour do you prefer... composite over BNC? SDI? What platform? Pinnacle Deko 500? Sports Deko? Inca Inscriber Studio? Moving video/clip playback/digital disc recorders? How about Drastic VVWs, Media100, AVID(&Express), Final Cut Pro, DSR-DR1000s under RS-232 or iLink control.

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Yes video editing software and hardware...not relavant to the actualy technology of scalers.
Yes I too can also mention Line Side T1 using FXS Ground loop protocol to pass ANI and DNIS information to a custom server in the IVR system so that CTI can pop.BRI? PRI? ACL? 5ESS 5E8 protocol? DTXA or DTQA?..not relavant to scaler technology in PJ vs DVd vs HTPC via video cards and viewing those sources on large screen format.

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Do I have to try every available product to understand what does and doesn't work, and how well each solution will fit a given problem?

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Well if its as simple ... why is it that when someone presents a picture via HTPC vs a picture via DVD on the same projector and the HTPC clearly shows a better picture you still throw away the choice of going HTPC and in your case a $50 DVD would do. If someone is willing to spend the $1000 on that HTPC to get a better picture...let them. I know you won't. It is no different than your happiness with your M3Ti. Those people you snob off and label as audio eleet actually do like to spend that extra money to get that seemingly better sound ... that seemingly increased resolution for that big amounts of cash.....why do they do it?...because they can afford to do it.

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And now you lash out because your solution is not my solution. A blanket statement was made that HTPCs "r00l a11" which is just not true.

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If you say so...I guess I lashed out to your solution as you did to my solution. I never made that blanket statement that HTPC rules or even implied that. READ the messages.

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"I did the R&D on this myself" ring to it) doesn't mean it's the final word

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This tests were done by many many many social meetings, tests over the years by fellow AVS-ers. In most cases all the viewers has quantified by their eyes and cameras that a properly configured HTPC would outperform a $50 DVD player in picture presentation. Against today's $300+ DVD players the margin is much closer.

Again it is my word vs your word. If you have not done a A-B test between between configured HTPC vs sub $100 DVD players then you word is also heresay. I have at least the backing of many tests done from a pretty big audio/video community.

I would gladly setup a A-B for anyone in Toronto to have a HTPC vs a sub $100 DVD player projecting into the same projector. The picture on the HTPC will in most cases present a better picture.

Again I still think its back to your god complex...or that you are still blind even if it is in front of your face.

Should I add to the ever growing list of snake oil by the experts to this forum:

- speakers that are not flat are not as good as Axioms
- high end speaker wires has no value
- all amps are created equal
- tube amps are a heresy to the music and solid state is king
- room equalization through speaker frequency manipulation is bad
- all CD & DVD players are created equal in presentation of music
- $50 DVD is a good enough solution. HTPC need not apply

ARGH...

If the money spent on a HTPC was used to buy a projector made by a manufacturer besides BenQ - I company I wouldn't even let make my mouse, then anything popping out a usable video signal to the onboard scaler will look tickity-boo. $700 project + $1000 HTPC - what's the balance of spending here? Spending 40% more on a glorified line doubler than you spend on the actual display?

As Debbie Harry one said, once more into the bleach:

speakers that are not flat are not as good as Axioms
Correct. Speaker response flatness over the audible spectrum defines speaker quality. Reference speakers are as flat as possible. You wouldn't buy film that had a big hump in skin tones - look, dear... everyone in our photos looks like Michael Jackson, a featureless set of lips and nostrils!

high end speaker wires has no value
It's good for the economy. That's a value.

all amps are created equal
Not even remotely true, that's why amps have current and wattage ratings and different numbers of channels, some are bridgable... etc.

tube amps are a heresy to the music and solid state is king
Accurate reproduction is king. Though for live performance, I can appreciate a good SWR tube head on a stage rig.

room equalization through speaker frequency manipulation is bad
I didn't chime in on this one, but I do believe EQing is evil. Maybe with a flat set of speakers and some solid state amplification, you wouldn't need to EQ. (knew that ACME bear trap would come in handy)

all CD & DVD players are created equal in presentation of music
Regarding digital outs - if they's kin read the disc data, they's as good as they's kin git. More money does not get you better 0s and 1s!

$50 DVD is a good enough solution. HTPC need not apply
If your projector isn't made in a 4th world country by an advanced race of midget apes and does it's internal resizing through an organic system based primarily on monkey dung, then yeah.

Bren R.

Jeez guys, settle down. I'm getting sprayed by both of your urine all the way down here in California!

I agree it is getting a little bit out of control.

Everyone has their own opinions, and while I agree that $1700 could buy a nice projector and DVD player that together can product a nice picture, if the guy wants to do it, he is most likely going to anyway. Seems like he likes to DIY everything. I udnerstand wanting to guide him in the right direction, and I think that all valid points for both sides have now been made.

This forum is great for honesty and openness, and everyone seems to get along most of the time. Lets keep it that way as you guys are very valuable members here, and I would hate for someone to get ticked off enough to leave.