Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Thinking of making the jump: what can I expect

Hi-

I'm looking to upgrade my sound system and have had Axiom in the back of mind as a consideration due the overwhelming amount of positive things I've read about them. I'm relatively new to "high(er) end" audio, having bought my first real speakers about 3 months ago. I'm currently using B&W dm601 s3's, with an LCR60. To cover the low end, I have an SVS PB10-ISD. This is all being pushed by a Marantz SR8400.

So, I'm hoping you kind folks could enlighten me as to what I might expect with a pair of Axioms. I think I'm all but sold on moving to floorstanding...I could go bookshelves b/c my sub is a real thumper, but I think that if I can afford the floorstanders, this could make a more significant difference. In terms of budget, I'm looking at $1000, so not a lot. With that said, that would afford me M50ti's and a VP100. My main concern or question is, can anyone elaborate on what sort of sound differences I could expect? I know B&W is known for their extra smooth midrange, albeit a pronounced midrange, and a focus on neutrality. I must say, I'm not terribly disappointed with the 601's though they could seriously use some more low end. Also, they're not very efficient, at 88db spl.

Is there anyone out there who has maybe demo'd the B&W's (specifically the 600 series), or knows an owner that could elaborate a bit more on what I can expect. I know you have to just listen to them, but I've never bought anything without looking at/hearing it first, and am now considering dropping $1000 to do just that. Being that I'm not made of money, that's a little unnerving. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Welcome to our Axiom family

Ahhhh the golden question, B&W versus Axiom. It actually is funny how often this comes up. I was in your same situation about a year ago. I didn't own B&W's at the time, however, my brother inlaw has a recording studio and has been a long time B&W fan. My experience in demoing the two had the Axiom m60's and 703's pretty equal. I would also say the 60's are a bit above the 600 series. Can't really provide input on the M50's as I've never heard them. One thing to consider is to check out the prices on the Axiom Factory Outlet link on the "Store" page from the main menu. If you haven't heard about this yet, Axiom has very strict quality control policies. The Factory Outlet speakers are brand new, and have the same warranty as the regular speakers. If Axiom feels there is even the slightest nick or blemish, the speaker is sold at 10% the regular price, and if you buy 5 or more items, you get another 5%. Most of us will tell you that you'll never be able to find anything wrong, I'm still looking and I bought all my Axioms from the Factory Outlet. This savings may help you get some 60's, which are better than the 50's in overall performance.

If you try the Search feature and type in B&W, I bet you'll find tons of threads on this subject.

Good luck and welcome again

Randy

M60's VP150 EP350 4-Qs8's
Denon 2805
Sanyo Z2 projector

ps: the Qs8's are the best surrounds in the industry, check them out if your into HT.

Yes CS, welcome. Can't offer any personal info on a direct Axiom/ B&W 601 comparison, but there's been some brief discussion here, and as Randy mentioned, you might do a search.

However, I will throw out some thoughts on a setup that'll fit your budget and I suspect give you better sound. Across the front use M60s plus a vertical M2 center, which would run just above or below $1,000, depending on whether you use factory outlet. Move 601s to side surrounds and LCR60 to center back surround. Position LCR60 vertically; as you might note, B&W specs show that it has better horizontal dispersion in that orientation, as is typical with MTM designs.

Thanks for all of the replies so far. John, just so you know, that sounds like an excellent set up...but one that I can't afford (the part about the B&W's.) If I go with the Axiom set up, I'll have to sell my B&W's on audiogon or ebay or something...I just don't have that kind of cash. With they're sale, I'm hoping to recoup ~$500 of the $750 I spent on them to put towards my Axiom set up. As for the center, The M2 probably won't work...simply due to the fact that my tv stand MUST accomodate the center (WAF). Also, would the M2 have a problem with dispersion vs. a dedicated center? Just curious.

Again, thanks for your replies so far. They're only making it easier for me to bite the bullet and pull the trigger.

Okay CS, then the budget is really about $500 plus what you'd hope to recover on the B&Ws. Assuming that works out, I'll still suggest the M60s/M2 across the front. If there's no way possible to fit the M2, then the VP100(using factory outlet prices)becomes a possibility. Yes, a vertically oriented center can in general have a better horizontal dispersion. For example, look at the B&W dispersion specs on the LCR60 which I mentioned; they show 40 degrees vertically(horizontally when vertical)compared to 20 degrees in the opposite direction.

Thanks again John. Yeah, the budget is more or less $1000, being $500 of my own plus ~$500 from the sale of my speakers. I looked at the specs on the M2 and it would indeed fit. The height of the upper opening in my entertainment stand is 8", so anything 8" or less will fit. I'd have to turn the M2 on its side and put it in there. It's 7.5" wide, thus on its side, it'd be 7.5" tall. But here may be a snag; can you buy them individually? I don't see that option anywhere, only pairs.

As for the M60 vs M50, seems as though the M60 is strongly suggested. Any reason why? Is it just a superior speaker for only $200 more (less than that at outlet prices). Just curious...want to gather as much info as I can. Thanks.

Correction...I see them in the outlet store sold individually. My bad.

Right; but on its side the benefit of the better dispersion would be lost(at least toward one side), so don't give much thought to that.

$750 for your B&W 600 series bookshelves?

Man, my $340 factory outlet M22's were an absolute steal.

I had the chance to listen to B&W 600 series and for me they sounded warm but a little refrained for the type of music I listen to. I thought they were optimal for Jazz music instead (for example). They lacked that "oomph" that you can get from Axioms. Different story with 703s but for 3000 dollars....

Anyway, I have Axiom M60s and am quite happy in a stereo setup with Rotel gear. They sell 900 dollars a pair (or less factory B).

I have never found a good way to describe the difference between smaller speakers and M60-class speakers other than a "bigger" sound. It may be dynamic compression (smaller speakers play the peaks a bit more quietly) but not sure.

Based on all the people here who have heard/owned B&W 600 series I think it's a pretty safe bet that you will be very happy with the 60s.

Well, since everyone is so ready to spend more money than you are, I can say that I love my M50s. At my listening volumes, they compare quite well with Dennis (Tharkun)'s M80s. Once you increase the volume, of course... I have not heard the M60s or the B&W 60x speakers. However, I think the differerences ascribed to the M50s vs M60s are more minor than people make them out to be. The M50s need proper placement to get good soundstaging, but what else is new?

The main reason the M60 is recomended more often than the M50 is that the ratio of M60 to M50 owners is about 10 to 1.

The M60 is not "Better" than the M50, it is simply different.

Bottom line? Do you want an extreemly accurate speaker that will give you an unbiased representation of the recorded material-warts and all; one that may sound a bit too foreward, maybe a bit sibilant on some recordings, perhaps even a touch bright? "Brutally Honest" comes to mind for my understanding of the M60s presentation. Or would you prefer a sound that is a touch relaxed and more tollerant of less than ideal recordings? Do you enthusiastically listen to the music or do you critically listen to the speakers?

They're both great speakers, but for slightly different reasons. And while they both "sound" slightly different from each other, they both have that distinctive "Axiom" sound-whatever it is-and are in fact very closely related.

Now, see, I disagree here. The M50s are a little less forward, but not much at all, unless the M60s are way different from the M22s or M80s.

Thanks for all the input so far guys.

Snippy, just to be clear, cuase yeah $750 sound like a lot for bookshelves. That $750 figure was for the bookshelves and the center, so the complete front set up for $750 (601's/$400 + LCR60/$320 + tax). $750 for bookshelves would be alarming to me also.

And thanks Kcarlisle for finally addressing the M50 vs M60 debate. I understand that most may think the M60 is superior, but a budget is a budget, so I may have to go with the M50 just based on what I can safely spend with out sending the little lady through the roof.

Right you are, Ken!

I was trying to say that the M60s are thought to be by some as a bit too foreward in many instances. The only Axiom speakers I am familiar with in personal experience are the M3s and the M50s, and surprisingly, the M50s seem just a tad more foreward than the M3s. But far closer to neutral than I understand the the M22s M60s and M80s to be.

Not trying to get into a heated discussion about the various Axiom speakers, as they are all very great speakers. However, I would not consider m60's to be forward by any stretch of the imagination

OK!! This is the part where the M50 Posse would usually jump up and state excitedly "We Got Another One!"

But this is a time where jubillation may not be the order of the day.

The M50s will forever set the tone of what will eventually be a rather expensive final HT and music system purchase. Those of us who have M50s and are extreemly happy with them would absolutely hate to feel that someone is buying our beloved speakers only because of budgetary constraints, and not because it is something that they actually want!

But if you do go for the M50s, and are happy as we are with them, then feel free to join the M50 Posse! You will be member....um....number seven!!

From my Axiom owner polls. I realize not everyone has taken the polls, but this does show a trend. The m60 posse rules

M40ti 2% (5 votes)
M50ti 7% (18 votes)
M60ti 67% (172 votes)
M80ti 21% (54 votes)
AX3 (disc.) 0% (1 votes)
AX5 (disc.) 0% (1 votes)
Non-Axiom Mains used with other Axioms 2% (4 votes)

Hi Randy,

One of the things that kinda scared me off when looking at the M50/M60 question was the "Foreward" issue. It was even pointed out as the only real negative in one "Professional" review. I had, however, posted an open question on this forum addressing the "Too Forward" situation, and had absolutely no negative comments from the M60 owners who responded. Some other members, though, had made a few mentions of their M60s sounding too foreward in their listening rooms in independent postings. So there are a few owners and testers who, in their opinions, find it to be an issue. I certainly don't know from personal experience as I have never heard an M60. All I was doing was passing along a concern that I had obtained from others who have encountered this attribute.

It seems to fall down to where you like to sit at a concert-on the stage with the performers, or in the front row!

No offence was intended!
Rich.

none was taken Rich

Also, you have to keep in mind that everyone's definition of forward, bright, harsh, laid back, warm, etc.... is different. When I was first looking at the Denon/Axiom combination I was told "Stay Away", and that combination would be to mechanical and bright sounding. Now most of this feedback was coming from AVSforum.com I finally trusted the opinions of my fellow Axiomites and from Alan, Joe, and Brent at Axiom. My experience is that the 60's, and I'm sure other models, are very accurate, detailed, and true to the source. There are so many things in the equation that can alter the sound from the speakers: room conditions, receiver settings, speaker location, etc...

So I basically take descriptions of speakers with a grain of salt. I'm sure what ever Axiom speakers he picks, he will be very happy...

Randy

et the M60s from the factory outlet and keep your B&W center for now. You may find that the combo works very well. If not, you can always get the old lady a new center for her birthday, and surrounds for Xmas...

Hi Randy,

I suspect you are right!!

Rich.

Wow. And all I was doing was trying to get some general feedback on what to expect. Seriously, sorry guys....didn't mean to start an M50/M60 war. I'm just looking to move to another line of speakers and really want to believe all the things I've read about Axiom and wanted to give them a try.

Along those lines, can anyone (and I know this may be difficult) explain a little the differences bt. going with the vp100 vs the vp150 (assuming the center would be paired with M50's). At only $145 more, I'm wondering if it' worth it to plunk down the money, or if they're really so similar that the additional expense is unnecessary. Thanks again. And sorry again too.

Dude there is nothing to be sorry about. It is all in fun, even if it appears to be a war. We are just one big happy family, trying to get the word out about these great speakers that Axiom puts out.

Where do you live? You might be able to get an audition from one of us that would be glad to do it...

Check out the Audition Thread in the Q&A forum.

good luck, and don't worry about anything, it is all good...

All good indeed. Thanks. And I did check the Q&A...turns out there's a couple of people. I live in the Northern VA/DC area, but I also travel, nearly every weekend, down to Richmond...so I've got 2 folks in DC, and one Axiom user in Glen Allen (Richmond) that I could check out. And how silly am I? I actually carry a self-made demo disc around in my car....you know, just in case I happen to pass any audio stores and need a quick audition.

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And how silly am I? I actually carry a self-made demo disc around in my car

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thats not silly at all!!! in fact, its a fantastic idea. not that i have a lot of opportunities to pop into stereo stores and demo speakers.. but, still a great idea to have to take to friends houses and test different systems. makes sense to have a set of songs that run the range of music that you listen to. rock to bach, and all points inbetween.

bigjohn

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And how silly am I? I actually carry a self-made demo disc around in my car....you know, just in case I happen to pass any audio stores and need a quick audition.

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I'm triple silly then... I carry a disc of subjective listening material, an audio reference disc (snagged from one of the CBC Radio guys) and a low-frequency reference/subjective listening disc (since the radio disc doesn't specifically reach down to those subsonic levels).

Bren R.

Actually, if you look at the M50/M60 war, what you'll find, is:

One side says "It's" a tenth of a per cent "This Way"
The other side says, it's a tenth of a per cent "That Way"

(And it's almost that close!)

And, it is all in fun!(which is why were all here in the first place!)After all, how much fun would it be to discuss differences....if there were no differences!

Now, if you want to see a "War" Ask about "Speaker Break-In"!!!

I would like to add one thing about the M50/M60 question though:

And that's the cost. The M50 is just as "Expensive" as the M60!! It just has fewer expensive components to buy!

One less 5.25" mid-woofer.

one less port.

Less weight for shipping.

And(assuming the picture is actually incorrect-or else I recieved "old" speakers)a less intricate terminal pad, and a less complex crossover network. Because...if the M50 is like my M3s there is no finicky crossover network tying the tweet to the mids! In other words: "Internally bi-wired!" How cool is that?! Just the mid-woofs runnin' free and a couple of simple, teensy components tying the tweet to the over-all speaker level!(Elegant!!)

Oh, and speaking of my M3s: Part of the reason I purchased my M50s was because of buying M3s back in the days when the M3 was the darling of the Axiom set. There were literally dozens of "Professional" tests of the M3 individually, and in additional tests refering to the M3s as "reference monitors" for the testing of other components. M3s were a qualified "No-Brainer" in those days, and really should be remembered for how good they really are, even today when the emphasis is on more detailed, "Performance" designs.

So, buying M50s was, in my case at least, based on the sound of a speaker that I hoped would be a good sonic match to speakers I'd already purchased and had never had an evil sound from.

In fact, the M50s "May" sound just a bit better than the M3s!

By the way...I use an inverted M3 as center, and two more as surrounds-a perfect match! And they have no trouble filling my 16x27 listening room!

Yup, it's all good.
Rich.

>>Along those lines, can anyone (and I know this may be difficult) explain a little the differences bt. going with the vp100 vs the vp150 (assuming the center would be paired with M50's). At only $145 more, I'm wondering if it' worth it to plunk down the money, or if they're really so similar that the additional expense is unnecessary.

The general rule of thumb is "big room VP150, small/medium room VP100". My current room is 13x23 which I consider to be definitely VP100 territory. The room in the new house is 23x25 which would be VP150 territory except I only expect to use half of it for HT and will be sitting fairly close to the screen and speakers.

If I had to generalize, I would say you *should* get a VP150 if you have multiple rows of seating or a big honkin' screen (which would let you sit further from the center channel) or if your seating area is unusually wide... and a VP100 would be fine otherwise.

EDIT -- I forgot the main reason people buy VP150, which is because it *is* only $145 extra and that way they never have to worry about having bought the wrong center speaker

Yep since my room is only 16x13x10 (medium-ish) I still chose the VP150 since I always second guess myself. There would be that little voice asking myself if I should have spent the extra $145. (I'm sure you guys know what I mean).

I think as others have stated, the VP150 is for larger rooms and plays a little louder (not sure on clarity but I assume so since it has an extra mid and tweeter).
Go with what you can afford. I am quite happy with my setup.

Okay, so I took the time tonight to break down 4 distinct purchase directions to see what others think. They include varying up the package to get different costs. Unfortunately, all but one of them are over my $1000 budget, so obviously option one has the greatest WAF...but option 2 is only $85 over so there's a potential for convincing. So now, decisions, decisions:

Option 1:
New M50ti $700
New VP 100 $240
Package price: $940

Option 2
New M50ti $700
New VP 150 $385
Package price: $1085

Option 3
Outlet Store M60ti (4 week wait) $810
Outlet Store VP150 (5 week wait) $346.50
Package Price: $1156.50

Option 4
New M60 ti $900
New VP100 $240
Package Price $1140

As you can see, option 3 gets me, in terms of moving up the ladder, the highest level of speakers...but that comes at a price... a month long wait. I listen to significantly more music than movies and don't have the largest of rooms (I'm an apartment hopper, so room sizes change yearly), so I'm wondering if the VP100 is not only enough, but perhaps the better option in terms of sticking to my budget. I don't know.

Looking at the above, would any Axiom owners like to weigh in on what they might do considering my constraints? Is there a clear cut winner? I'm guessing, to a degree, they're all winning options...they are, after all, new Axiom set-ups. Just looking for opinions. Thanks again.

CS, you may have used the term "new" just as a separation from the outlet speakers, but note that the outlet speakers are also "new", but possibly with a slight cosmetic defect. As it is, I'd suggest Option 4, but from the outlet in view of your tight budget. Although there're no guarantees, many who've ordered through the outlet have been pleasantly surprised when they were shipped in a shorter than estimated time(e.g. shorter than the 4 and 3 weeks shown for cherry M60s and VP100s).

Again, I will suggest option 5: buy a pair of M60s and keep your current center.

Now that I read it again. Option 5 as just indicated. Order the vp150 later when your ready for another move.

Yeah, sorry about the "new" designation...I guess I should have qualified "new" vs "new/outlet"...that probably would have been more accurate. I'll have to go back and work out the numbers for option 4, but done through the outlet store.

As for getting the M60's and keeping the center, maybe I'm too new to this, but I've done tons of reading and talked a lot to local sellers, etc and have always consistently heard that you don't want to mix and match for the front 3. Sub, surrounds can be mixed, but sonically, you want the front 3 to match. Wouldn't it be detrimental to have speakers that have completely different builds, different drivers, different tweeters, and drastically different specs (in terms of sensitivity) across the front? Again, I may be over thinking that...but if I am, then every person I've talked to is over thinking it because that seems to be a universal recommendation...to at least match up the fronts. Is that not necessarily as important as I think it is? Just curious...that would obviously be a more economical choice, but I'd like to make sure it's the right choice.

"...primary listening is music...".
Option 5

CS, possibly Mark(BigWill) and Doug(bug)have in mind different versions of Option 5. Yes, it's desirable to have the front three speakers as similar as possible(one of the reasons for my M60/M2 suggestion), but if necessary, especially with music, you can temporarily use no center speaker and have the mains form a "phantom" center.

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......you can temporarily use no center speaker and have the mains form a "phantom" center.

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While saving money for the purchase of a similar center at a later date in the future!

I like this option, espcially since music is my primary use of the system.

>>Wouldn't it be detrimental to have speakers that have completely different builds, different drivers, different tweeters, and drastically different specs (in terms of sensitivity) across the front? Again, I may be over thinking that...but if I am, then every person I've talked to is over thinking it because that seems to be a universal recommendation...

Matching the mains and center is always important, but the important thing is to match the sound... matching the brand makes that easier but it's not the only way to go.

If you're mixing great mains with a crappy center that would be a problem, but the B&W and Axiom brands both aim for the same sound so I don't think you would have a problem living with the B&W center for a while.

In case it helps, I ran with matched fronts and mismatched surrounds for a while and still found that listening to music in anything but stereo didn't sound right. It wasn't until I put M2s (then later QS8s) in as surrounds that I enjoyed listening to music in 5.1.

I think the B&W center will be fine with the Axioms, particularly for HT (you're probably going to want to do serious music listening in 2.0 or 2.1 anyways) -- I wouldn't rush into replacing the center for a while.

Again, we're not saying that matching center and mains isn't important, just that they probably *will* match pretty well even though they are from different mfgs.

i think i would get the 60's, just because i have some, and i think they give you the best option in the floor standers.

so, get factory outlet 60's, and an outlet VP100 or VP150, and you should be good to go..

i guess that would be like option 13 by now, right..?

bigjohn

You have 30 days to decide. You could just buy a set of 50’s, and if you decide you don’t like them or feel the need to upgrade, Axiom will send you another set with return shipping on the first set paid (well, I think they will anyway). Or, you could just buy both, and send one pair back, and then you’ll never have to wonder if you bought the right set.

I’d figure the mains out first, then get the center as funds become available.

I'm currently running MA Silver 8s with an Axiom VP150 center and I like the results. I was fully prepared to change center channels, but I have no plan to do so because the result is not just adequate - it's kick-ass!
In your case, I'm thinking - as a previous poster stated - that the B&W center is pretty darn good and not too different sounding that it will draw attention to itself.
Theoretically, three identical speakers across the front would be ideal, but in the real world how much difference are we talking? Regardless, remember that center channels from every manufacturer most certainly have different frequency response graphs than the mains to which they are "matched".

Alan also made a good point that the different physical placement of the three speakers (mains free standing, center on top of a TV and maybe under a shelf) will be a significant contributor to different sound anyways... you just have to match the three speakers well enough that their differences are not the biggest problem...

Did we tell you about the custom finishes available?
What option is that?

I've been running a VP150 for a over a year with my old JBL bookshelves. It was my weakest link and my easiest way to get into better speakers and sound for a fair price. I watch movies 95% of the time compared to music.

While everyone would suggest getting mains first, I was not willing to wait that long to save up and the WAF approved getting the center. The sound difference hasn't been picked up by anyone who's come over and I get compliments all of the time. I can only easily hear a difference when doing test tones or a really good slow fade across happens...but I also listen for it.

I'm not suggesting to get the center now/first, go for the 50/60's and see how you like them. If you do go outlet you also have a month to save up that extra $$

Hopefully sometime around October I will get my 60's from the outlet. Renovations especially unexpected ones have severly delayed my purchase...:(

I'll pop in one last time on the M50/M60 issue as relates to what center to think about.

Here's where the "Ifs'" come in.

"If" perhaps you do try the M50s, and "If" perhaps you actually like them, then my suggestion would be to strongly consider using my old favorite, the M3, as center.

I've not heard any of the VP series with either the M3s or the M50s so I can't comment on how they sound with them, but I can say that the M3/M50 combination is as close as you can get!

And the price is right!

Just a couple of thoughts;
1: I doubt very much that you would wait as long as they say for the outlet speakers. I think Axiom pretty much tries to post the longest wait time possible, but from many people's experience, they usually show up sooner.

2; 5 pieces gets you the 5% "system" discount, (even on F/O pieces) and someone else just posted a note that they got that 5% when they included cables and bannana plugs as part of their 5 items. I was amazed at this, but if it is true, then your F/O $ might get even cheaper if you pop for some cables and such.
(And just deduct the $ of the cables from the Wife Reported price, because, after all, you Gotta buy new cables for new speakers anyway, Right?
I haven't done the math, but that might get you close enough to your $$$ with F/O 60's and an F/O VP100 to count.

Alright, so I never knew about the 5% discount...this makes things more interesting. In terms of getting it, I can't add cables as I already bought some pretty decent ones. When I bought my B&W's, I sprung for some Impact Acoustics Velocity speaker cable, terminated with bananas. However, knowing the 5% was hovering there, just for kicks, I added some M2i's for surround (all from f/o: M60's, VP100, M2i's). That gave me $65 off and a total price of $1214. That's only $200 over my original budget, but, what that allows me to do is sell my surrounds also, which actually brings that $200-over-budget figure down. This may be the deal I go with. I'm sort of sitting around thinking that if I could stretch it by ~$200, I could have an entire Axiom set-up...and that sounds pretty good to me (no pun intended). I'm off to talk it over with the old lady.

PS. Can anyone tell me what the finish is like on the Boston Cherry? Seeing it online, it's hard to tell. I've seen some speakers with this cherry or rosenut-ish finish, and sometimes the look awful...really plastic-y looking. Do they look pretty good in real life? Thanks again for everyones input.

If your concerned about the finishes of the speakers, I suggest that you email the axiom staff and request color samples. This is what I did and it made my decision process much easier.
Then as an added bonus you can use the color samples to play a game or two of street hockey.