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Horizontal bi-amp or Vertical bi-amp
#61867 09/23/04 01:54 AM
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Well I'm bored............and I don't do politics....................and well I'm bored and we all know what that means. I play and get myself into trouble. I took the afternoon off and have been playing with various configurations. My toy's for the day are a pair of NAD C272's 2 x 150W or 300W mono. I had one running in stereo. Very nice. Had them both running in MONO, not nice. Sound got dull, no bass no nothing. Wonder why? 300 watts a side sounded worse then 150 watts a side. I'm assuming the watts increase but the amps decrease. So now I have them running in the horizontal bi-amp configuration. For those that don't know what that is, I basically have one amp running the highs on both speakers and the other amp is looking after the bottom end. Sounds darn good. Much better then MONO. Next is to try vertical bi-amping and see what shakes. Once again for those that don't know, vertical is to have one amp run one speaker....dedicated.

Has anybody tried this? If so did you hear anything between the two?

...............and no I didn't buy these amps. I get along really well with the NAD guy in town and he let's me borrow things from time to time! I have bought enough from him that he knows sooner or later something won't come back! lol

Re: Horizontal bi-amp or Vertical bi-amp
#61868 09/23/04 06:34 PM
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Well I take it not many people here have played around with this eh? Oh well. Some of what I have found out for sure is that running stereo amps in mono sucks big-time. Other then the power you get, I heard no other sonic benefit at all.....................and I still can't get over how bad it sounded.

Horizontal is nice and overall works well. Distinct improvement over straight stereo. Packs a little more punch. Not sure why but it does. As for vertical, there is a change from horizontal to vertical but I have yet to put my finger on what it is. I will keep playing and figure it out.

Re: Horizontal bi-amp or Vertical bi-amp
#61869 09/25/04 03:56 PM
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I'm sad. I had to take the NAD's back. At least this turned into a real good discussion on another forum. Some seem rather vocal on vertical bi-amping creates better imaging but I still have my doubts..........but this seems to be of very little interest to anyone here so I will stop yapping about it!

Re: Horizontal bi-amp or Vertical bi-amp
#61870 09/25/04 04:09 PM
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W
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W
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Neverhappy,

I thought I would just say hello so it does'nt look as if you are talking to yourself .


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: Horizontal bi-amp or Vertical bi-amp
#61871 09/25/04 04:19 PM
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Hey wid. Thanks for taking the time. I thought I was all alone here! I can't believe more people here have not played with this type of set-up. It is such a hot topic on some other forums.

Re: Horizontal bi-amp or Vertical bi-amp
#61872 09/25/04 04:44 PM
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Sorry NH.
This forum tends to be a bit more grounded in reality rather than crazy tests of the audio overzealous.
I don't think many here have tried bi-amping for the general reason that is does very little if anything at all (when using similar quality amps all around). Buying multiple amps for the same speaker is also a huge chunk of cash which again, is not the general goal of many on the Axiom forums.
I've only bi-amped once myself and it was a short lived experiment.

But if you want, we can change the subject header to donuts or something just so wid is not the only person replying to you in this thread.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Horizontal bi-amp or Vertical bi-amp
#61873 09/25/04 09:00 PM
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chess, I'm a little choked at your post.

To say it does very little is some what inaccurate and definitely shows you didn't try it for very long. Did you do it correctly and completely bypass the speakers crossovers or did you just hook up 2 amps? I also take a little offence to the term "audio overzealous" Just because a few here preach the gospel that a cheap HT system is just as good as a mega buck system is no reason to take shots at those of us who strive for more. I found a noticeable change depending on how I had the amps configured etc. This was not something I thought I heard. My level meter showed several things that I found interesting. When people learned they could biamp with the new Denon 3805 several in these forums and elsewhere reported they heard a noticeable improvement especially in the bottom end. Are they all wrong or we going with the age old argument that they just wanted to hear an improvement and thus heard it?

As for the general goal of the Axiom forums, I don't agree with that either. To say or imply that most have bought Axiom because there goal is to not drop a chunk of cash is rather insulting. There are a few people here with some very nice systems and have single components that are worth as much as all of there Axiom speakers. What is there goal?

So I guess at the end of the day if I'm not asking how the M60's stack up to the M22's I should go elsewhere? Either way this has been a eye opener for me as far as these forums go! I didn't catch on fast enough to some of the apparent unwritten rules.

If anybody wants to try this now or down the road, the link below has some decent guidelines to follow.

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm



Re: Horizontal bi-amp or Vertical bi-amp
#61874 09/25/04 10:05 PM
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does bi-amping change the impedence?

Re: Horizontal bi-amp or Vertical bi-amp
#61875 09/25/04 10:36 PM
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NH,
You seem to have taken everything in my post completely the wrong way and I’m not sure why.
The audio overzealous term applies to many, most especially myself. I am always the passionate researcher looking to solve puzzles. However sometimes the endless variation of trying a combination of components is just that, overzealousness rather than rational thought. If I were to take my Onkyo receiver and swap the black cord for the red cord in both my speakers and receiver just for the heck of swapping them to listen for a sound difference, is that truly rational thought or am I just being overzealous?
How about those who feel plugging in the power cord in the opposite direction (and then do it for each of their components) makes audible difference?
Just overzealous? Or are they really onto something?

Secondly, during my bi-amping, I did what most consumers do (which I guess according to some theories is the 'wrong' way of bi-amping), which is to hook up 2 amps, one to the high-mid range binding posts and the second to the lows. We heard no difference in sound quality but there was an obvious increase in the SPL output at lesser preamp settings.
In reply to:

Are they all wrong or we going with the age old argument that they just wanted to hear an improvement and thus heard it?



Is the placebo effect no longer a valid scientific theory?
How have all these people tested their bi-amping trials?
Does speaker break-in exist b/c so many people report it does?
I don't think i have to defend that position any more than it does all on its own.

The article you posted states that the passive crossover be removed and an electronic crossover used in its place. The recommendation is also to keep with the same crossover point that was set by the speaker designer. So, what's the point then?
Nothing has really changed.
His explanation of why the passive crossover is not a good thing is somewhat vague and dubious.
In reply to:

A loudspeaker can be a difficult load for any amplifier, but when additional inductance and capacitance enter the equation, this only makes matters worse.



Umm, make matters worse? Any quality amp will not have a problem driving speakers as long as it was designed for the proper load regardless of what the crossover is doing.
In reply to:

Add to this the fact that all passive crossovers introduce some degree of loss (in some cases as much as 3dB - which means that they are "stealing" half the available power), and one can see that getting rid of them cannot be such a bad thing.



I would like to see proof of this and he needs to define "some" cases. What if for the Axioms such a difference really measures at 0.5dB?
Then it no longer becomes audible.
Axiom speakers may not fall into his 'some' cases category.
Again, way more information is needed here.
In reply to:

Look at the impedance graphs for almost any speaker system, and it will be seen that there is almost always a dip in impedance (sometimes severe) at the crossover frequency.



Well, I’m looking at the impedance graphs of the M22 which has its crossover set at 2.7khz. I don't see a dip until well after the 2.7khz mark. Certainly that makes his statement rather inaccurate.

Third, I've been around the forums long enough to get an idea of just how many people come through here looking for the 'bang for the buck' stuff. There is not actually that many people on the forums who own anything more than the more common a/v receivers sold in many box stores. There are WAY more people who do not come onto the forums who also fall into this category (i can think of about 15 friends and family members alone). Audio purists are really a minority group although coming to audio forums does not make it seem that way. I have yet to come across someone who owns an amp that is more expensive (and used to drive) his or her entire Axiom HT setup. So yes, I believe the general goal of the majority that buy Axiom speakers are not those looking to put together $20,000 audio systems, let alone even a $7000 one.
How is that insulting to anyone?
There's nothing wrong with trying to find the best quality for the price and those who have found Axioms have certainly done some smart research.

Your idea on the biamping is interesting, but I’m sticking to my opinion that like many things I’ve tried, it is audio overzealousness with what I perceive to be of little benefit for the effort expended. (I could tell you about some of the things i've tried but we would be here for awhile.)
You find the subject interesting so go nuts. I don't know if anyone else will reply to the post on the idea, but i'm still here and i'm certainly willing to read and hear more about the bi-amping idea.
I will try to read the entire article a bit later. I have several other things i need to read yet today.



"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Horizontal bi-amp or Vertical bi-amp
#61876 09/26/04 01:22 AM
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I may have taken portions of your post the wrong way and for that I apologize but without a doubt you do come across as a little condescending and your response here only strengthened my position on that. Perhaps your not but your post to me has a certain level to it. I hate the nature of posting in a public forum anyway. You never know what the other person meant. That is why I'm such a die hard hater of email. Worst god dam thing that has been done in the last few years. I have seen it cause so many problems for so many people for no reason other then something was taken out of context......but that debate is for another discussion.

You are obviously not convinced on something unless it can be verified and or a scientific explanation be put on paper. More power to you, I don't need science to justify what I hear. If I hear it, I heard it.

As for the link I posted at the end of my post, if you have issues with the accuracy, please contact the writer. I'm sure he would be more then happy to make any corrections that are necessary if in fact there are corrections that need to be done. That is one of many links out there that discuss the benefits of bi-amping. I'm no expert on the subject so I can't get into to deep of a discussion on it. I just know that from what I have heard, it can make an improvement when done correctly and it's not a small improvement.

In reply to:

Is the placebo effect no longer a valid scientific theory?




May very well be but it's only a theory, which to me is a fancy term for speculation. Theory, what a word! The scientific term for "I don't have a freaken clue"

In reply to:

Does speaker break-in exist b/c so many people report it does?




Prove to me with absolute certainty that it doesn't.

We can carry on with this but in the end, I have my views and you have yours.......and we will leave it at that.





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