So the latest version of the 100's arrived today... got to go back to listening.... will post opinion tomorrow.

Miami vice white?

Right on!!!!! Congrats!!!! Looking forward to hearing your initial impressions. The ADA-1000 arrive too?

These new M100s push my Yamaha RX-A860 to the limit, actually it doesn't know what to do, one channel is 10db higher than the other. It can't handle it. I took one M100 out of the box and plugged it in and was shocked at the sound. It fills the room. I am impressed. I've been enjoying them. I'm having to figure out a better way to fit them in the room and which amp to go with. I now understand when people say these three little 6" drivers don't need a sub. It's shocking how much bass they put out. The mid range and lower end hits you in the chest.

The negative, which people search for but generally don't find, luckily Axiom has the balls to have an open forum. My ears are used to the brightness of the old tweeters. I'm sure the new ones will please the masses but they play lower than the old ones. When I turned on my old VP150 center channel it filled the gap quite well, but that is needing to be replaced as the off axis performance is not what it should be. So I have to find a 10 year old axiom center channel, hopefully with a woofer/tweeter/woofer. Needless to say the M100 is the best speaker thats ever been in my house.

Also, any ideas on how I can better fit these guys in the room would be very welcome. I have a set of outriggers to fasten them down, but these guys are very heavy.

Your Yammy is fine unless you're pegging it or it's damaged. The ADA will fix that.

The v4 tweeters are boss! I wonder if you are pushing the Yammy into distortion.

You need a VP160v4.

You can never achieve the full potential of the M100s in that room. Not even close. This is why I suggested the M2 for you. What's the point of cramming them into that space?

The best you can do is rotate that room 90 degrees. Problem is, the bass from those sphincters will blow out your new windows. You will need EQ.

My heart truly aches for you because you are now discovering what audio is but you will never reach your destination unless you raze your place to the ground and start over.

Hey Rebulx, those m100s are definitely dominating that room! It’s neat you get to compare the different tweeters.

What does the rest of the room look like? Any way to do a wide shot or draw a basic schematic for the room?

Also, I’m assuming the white speakers m5 and others are a home theatre in another room in the house?

Yes your are absolutely correct Mojo! I do think something is off on the Yamaha, as I hooked up the old M50s and got the same 10 dd ++ reduction in sound.

Kodiak, I have pics in another thread. I'll see if I can repost here.

Rebulx, can you just temporarily move your left M100 to the right side of your fireplace? I know the window is there but just temporarily. Then just listen. You may never put it back.

why not put the tv where the painting\poster is and flank it with the speakers as wide as you can go... then put the couch where the glass doors are

We went down that path and discovered his She-Hulk wife would thigh-choke him. We also agreed that might be kinda fun!

That’s too bad. It would be a good orientation for all the variables of the setup.

It would be worth it to just try it as an experiment. And if it works or doesn’t then at least you’d know. The curiosity would be killing me.

You could have multiple positions that work for different scenarios. ( Speakers not thigh wrestling )

I’ve got 3 different setups / positioning for mine. ( Again, speakers not thigh wrestling. ) But I’m only dealing with 2 channel.

Yeah...that's exactly my illness. When I put speakers in a room, I throw everything out first, and then set them up in multiple ways and listen.

I do that at friends' places and it drives them nuts because once they hear good, they don't want to live with mediocre. Unfortunately they don't have the freedom I do and their wives aren't as much fun as Rebulx's.

I wouldn’t be able to NOT try it. I’m working around kids and a wife here but when the opportunity comes up I do a full setup for a listening session in the best position, which is also the most daily unliveable one.

I’ve got:
1. Station Keeping ( most livable and most aesthetic )
2. Holographic ( away from side walls more and moved out from back wall, can setup in 4-6 mins ). Dangerous for kids due to knocking over and scratching.
3. Ultimate. Takes 20-30 mins of setup lot’s of moving stuff but outs setup on my wider width wall and longer length wall. Exceptional. I’ve only done it a few times now bc it’s a major re working if all cables etc

Haven’t yet but I’d like to try my setup in a small room too. Just to see how it sounds.

Rebulx, you should try bringing the m100s off the rock dais and down into the carpet. That will at least move them away from back walls ( better for clarity and non muddy bass ) and get your tweeters closer to ear level. It could be why you don’t like the tweeters. If I toe out my ti tweet they are less bright and it improves the image and makes things less directional.

Bring them down lower , a touch wider , with very gentle toe in. Don’t be shy to use the tone control either with the treble. Just a little bit of treble. It’s not heresy to use the tone knobs or adjusters.

I actually was thinking about moving the TV above the fire place, that will most likely happen very soon, but i'm enjoying these M100s where they are now. I love these speakers!

Listener, I can't sacrifice the view, as the glass doors over look the water and turning the couch around would put our backs to the water. Yes, that makes the most acoustic sense though, but the the wife would never oblige.

Water view is hard to beat. I noticed you're from Florida. Where in Florida do you reside? I'm thinking of bringing my family for a six to ten week getaway there this winter since we are working remotely anyways and kids have the option to remote learn. I usually go to Fort Lauderdale, but this year plan on visiting the gulf side. Probably around Sarasota and Fort Myers.

Rebulx, favourite tune so far you’ve played on the m100?

How’s things sounding at different volumes?

great question Kodiak... I would have to say "The Good The Bad and The ugly" on youtube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enuOArEfqGo

thats my favorite, but man i've heard some incredible lows from these speakers. Tonight I switched to two channel and had to walk around my listening space to make the other subs were not playing as it went so deep. I just could not believe these cabinets could handle such lows! You need M100s, DO NOT COMPROMISE! I had the M80 on walls and what a difference, it's like JV vs NFL.


I'm really looking for new stuff to listen to as most of what i've found on the forums is just drum kicks, which are fun for about 2 minutes, lol

I'm excited to report that I have a bad ass amp coming over this weekend Kodiak so I should have a more comprehensive over view of these M100s next week., as my puny receiver has not down the greatest job when going loud, but still the 100's shine.

That is a masterpiece!!!!! I love it!!!! I’ve got all the spaghetti westerns on DVD.

Totally agenious idea to re create that with a full orchestra!!!

Stoked to hear your Initial review with the new amp. You get an ADA? Or an Emotiva? ( did you post that somewhere? )

Glad you’re enjoying them. !!! That’s great that you thought subs were still playing but it was the m100.

A new amp is gonna make those m100s into a whole other beast.

You see, in this world there's two kinds of people. Those with Axioms, and those without.

I’d love to do a blind a/b/c/d test in Dwight. That would be really fun. It would be interesting to have some big $$$ speakers in the line up too and see what happens and let the chips fall where they may.

I agree mojo. There are those that have axioms and those that don’t. I have no doubt there are people that don’t like the axiom house sound but I’m a believer. Looking forward to hearing more axioms in the future.

Edit: I’d like to hear some klipsch heritage speakers too but in my living room. Not at a shop or big box store. ( I’ve heard a few like that. So so. ).

Edit 2: Why else would I be up chatting on the axiom forum!.

I've had the opportunity to listen to high end B&W, martin login, def tec, Elac, KEF, and a few others in a carefully setup listening room. I'm happy to say nothing compared to the 100's in my terrible listening room, except for one pair of speakers, the B&W 800 diamond series... those were the best, unfortunately for me, they cost 15k per speaker.

Wow. That’s high praise Rebulx. 15k per tower for the diamonds eh? That’s a lot of cash.

The M100 s sounds like a true flagship speaker.

So 15$x2= $30k for diamonds. Just speakers.

Well $30k with AXIOM gets you ACTIVE LFR 1100 with ALL the goodies. Both ADA 1500 amps , DSP x2 , XLR cables, EP 800x2 and of course the LFR 1100 towers. There’s probably still room in that $30 k for a pair of ep600 as well.

I’m gonna add that to my wish list. Maybe it’ll pop up on the refurb store. Ha ha.

Edit: don’t forget the custom finish of your choosing.

The 800s might sound great but the design is a turn off for me. I prefer more traditional designs.

Totally agree. I don’t like when speakers look like AI or robots. The KEF Blade comes to mind or the Nautilus Series. Hideous.
I actually really like the axiom look or just good ole boxes with strong build non resonant build.

Hmmm...what about the design turns you off? I am just curious.

I was purely commenting on the aesthetics of it. I don’t know anything of the design or internals.

I assumed that’s what Canes was talking about. Maybe not.

I’m just old fashioned I guess. I like simple and clean look and wood grain.

I really like the look of the Klipsch Heritage line in wood grain. I wanna try horns one day too.

It's more contemporary and the tweeter looks like a microphone sitting on top.

And I was referring to the B&W 800 diamond speakers not the Axiom 800 subwoofer.

Yeah that’s what I thought. I also dislike the “ microphone “ tweeter. The aesthetic just looks like it’s trying too hard.

B&W fans love that super tweeter. You can even buy add on for normal speakers just put on top. Supposedly brings highs to a whole new level.
Possibly to much if treble sensitive, or younger people. I can only go a couple hours with extreme highs before fatigue sets in. Though I think they look pretty cool.

Gotcha. I thought you were referring to the 800 monolith. Lol.

The super tweeter is at another level. Because it's mounted higher up.

The super tweeter looks like a turdy cream horn. The Axioms...well...they look like what they are. Electrodynamic loudspeakers.

You're bringing back the memories ...

Back in the early 90's the B&W 802 (matrix series... square with beveled corners) was on the top of my list. I seriously contemplated spending the multi grand price tag (can't remember the number, want to say 5k but it might have been lower) but in the end found something which to my ear sounded somewhat similar for a bit more than a grand (a demo'ed DCM TF600s? combined with duel mirage subs). Maybe if I compared the setups side by side I'd find big differences but that didn't really matter. I was happy with the sound and for the difference in money I didn't need to hear the 802 again. Actually, haven't heard anything from them since except for maybe a pair of 804s at a freinds house (which didn't cut it but I didn't tell him that).

Martin Logans were on my short list around the 1999 time-frame but at the time there was no place to put them. I had just sold my house and moved into my girl-freinds condo. I remember them for their spaciousness and incredibly clear mids through highs. Unfortunately, marriage and kids came and the audio hobby was shelved since the new house also had nowhere to put a decent setup.

Did you get rid of the girlfriend when you got married? Yeah, too bad for marriage and kids. LOL.

Nope, married her. The kids really put a damper on things ... That's another reason the Martin Logans got nix'ed ... I kept having visions of paper clips being poked through the Logans membranes. Instead I took up photography as something to do when taking the kids to playgrounds and such but always miss'ed having great audio. It was one of the big reasons for the house renovation.

My kids were different than your kids. I'd give them paper clips for poking stuff and they'd refuse. I'd give them knives to slash and cut and they'd say "No, thank you". I'd give them lighters to torch ignitables and they'd go read books. I just gave up on them, ya know?

Rebulx, which model from the B&W 800 series are you referring to?
Jeff

If running subs should you cross over the m100s at 80hz?

For your space, you need all the drivers you can get. The trick is going to be coordinating it all.

Are you talking about Canes space? Or Rebulx?

How big is the space?

We're really having communications problems on this board, aren't we?

Canes's space. He has over 10,000 cu ft I think.

I didn't give a good answer. Canes will have to experiment and keep some notes. Does it sound too boomy? Does it sound slow? Are the HP drivers distorting because he's sitting 15 to 20 ft away and has it cranked? Etc.

I'd start off with no sub for a few days at least. Then add the 500 and start experimenting with the cross-over on the receiver and the 500.

I've found on all my combos, it sounds best when the sub and receiver are crossed at the same frequency. I have my actives crossed at 40 on the DSP and the 500s set to 40 as well. But that boils down to preference I suppose based on room dynamics.

I’m sitting at almost 12k cubic feet. It’ll definitely be an experiment. Starting small 5.1 and building up. Starting with my avr and then adding a 1500 5 channel. After that I’ll start adding more subs and speakers until I’m completely immersed in sound.

I don’t wax rhapsodic as well as Mojo.

Wow. That’s a big space. Is the volume multiplied by mostly floor space or is it a high vaulted ceiling I’m guessing that is giving the large volume?

Definitely an experiment for sure to pressurize that volume. That will be a fun build. Cool.

It’s an open basement with 9 foot ceilings but the floor layout is 52x25 but we are only using about half for the theater portion.

The 804's were = to my M100s (minus the tweeters) but the 800D3's for 30k were the best for me on the B&W line.

Seriously though it was 30k!!!

Got he Emotiva 5 channel amp tonight from a friend... it powered down twice when turning up the volume, not sure what thats about, but it's working now. listening... damn these 100s go loud! poor neighbors. I may get a citation tonight for the local sound ordinance.

Put on a bass heavy tune and you'll fry that Emo.

You will once you get the right boom in that room.

This new avr has already made a big difference in sound and I only have fronts and center hooked up. Chomping at the bit for the new speakers to arrive so I can really see how good this room can get. I need to start building an audio cabinet to hold everything I’m planning on adding. Come on November.

Don't build a cabinet. It acts as a Helmholtz resonator. It also gathers dust. I had one and burned it in my firepit. I got a beauty of a live pine 6' shelf and put industrial legs on it. Amps underneath and receiver PS3, etc on top.

Where do you set your center channel? You got a pic handy? I know i've seen it, but don't recall.

I had a 150v2, moved to 160v4 but no centre needed with actives. I could always put the 160 back with a home-built shelf above the Onk but it's much more realistic with no centre.

The actives...they're the real deal!

Yeah, that looks like a perfect listening space for those actives!

I’m going to build an on wall shelf to hold the 180 and then something very similar to what you have Mojo to hold my avr, ps4, and eventually my amps.

This is what I used.

https://www.lowes.ca/product/table-...e-top-actual-2-in-x-20-in-x-72-in-847043

https://www.lowes.ca/product/table-legs/live-edge-15-in-small-steel-table-legs-2-pack-847040

Fortunately my father in law is a woodworker. We already have some natural cherry boards we are going to use for the shelf and table top.

If he really loved you, he'd also build you diffusers.

https://www.soundassured.com/blogs/blog/how-to-build-acoustic-diffuser

Thanks for sharing that rrlev. It’s interesting to see your journey thru different setup and system.

Canes, I’m sure you’ve considered it but a wall in there would help immensely. Could be an opportunity to build a nice theatre. Diffusers/absorbers and soundproofing the walls a bit. I’m just blowing smoke here , I have no clue your situation or house setup either. But it sounds like you got room to enjoy!! Nice!

Didn't know Lowes had live edge, good share.

Kanes, go with the vp160.

Kodiak, we could easily put up a wall but we would really like to keep it open for entertainment purposes based on how we will have the rest of the room laid out.

Is there a reason everyone keeps saying the 160 vs the 180?

Many here may believe the unorthodox design of the 180 won't work across a wide width of seating positions. The 180v4 however is not like the 150v2 which did indeed suffer off-axis.

I've heard both in v4 and both sound very good. The only reason to go with a 180 is if you need more SPL. I loved my 160v4. With active LFRs, I don't need it.

I can vouch for the off axis of the 150 so I should have a good comparison once the 180hp arrives.

If you like the off axis of the 150 then you'll be happy with the 180.

You can vouch what and which 150 version?

It’s a v1 or v2. I think my father purchased it around 1999/2000. If you aren’t directly in front of the speaker the sound tapers off pretty significantly. I’m assuming that’s what you meant by off axis.

Yup, that's right.

I'm gonna have to go down and listen to the 150v4 ... haven't notice ...

But then again I haven't really listened to it off the couch.

The 150 is smaller than the 180 so I’m hoping the 180 will have a little wider axis. If not, I can always send back for the 160 after the test drive.

Rich, I don't know about the 150v4. I'd bet Andrew and Ian worked that one over and it's not like the 150v2. Note the 150 went the way of the M22 and M50.

If I say anything ignorant please forgive me. I’m still learning.

A wider center does not make for wider off-axis performance necessarily. The 160v4 is plenty wide. I've sat 60 degrees off-axis with no problem.

Description on the 180 talks about being tested on and off axis so I guess I’ll find out in a month. Can also see if Rich notices anything on his 150v4. Maybe they fixed some of those issues.

Canes, I totally understand wanting to keep it open. Could you hang a really nice heavy curtain where a wall would go? You could make it really classy looking. Then about and close based on need.

Would a heavy curtain be enough to reduce the volume the woofers would need to pressurize? I honestly don’t know ?but I’m sure the crew here will comment.

It’s just a thought...... might be a dumb idea I’m not sure. But it works for reflections and diffraction ( right terminology?) in my living room giant glass window when I draw closed the heavy drapes.

Edit: sorry to interject in the Center channel chat. Just a lowly 2 channel guy here. ( smirk. ).

Nope a curtain won't help unless it's 14 feet thick. No kidding. To stop a 20Hz acoustic wave, you need at least a quarter wavelength of absorption. A 20Hz acoustic wave is about 55 feet long. A quarter of that is 14 feet.

Ha ha ha ha!!! That’s hilarious!! Ok. Bad idea. I’m smiling at myself now. It’s logical when you put it that way Mojo.

Well Canes , I guess you’ll need to just buy a lot of sub woofers. Or heavy furniture and large fish tanks.......a la Scarface.

So what are my curtains actually doing when I close them? ( bc it sounds a lot better when I do ). Sorry to hip check the chat here.....

No way they'd let the 150v4 be the same performance as the cursed 150v2.

That's what I said a week ago.


They are mostly diffusing and partly absorbing the image-destroying highs that bounce around your room and confuse your ears-brain.

Reflect! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM

Thats a great video Mojo... actually it's now my favorite. Kodiak, i've watched it at least three times now. As boring as some may find it, it's very interesting, worth the watch.

That’s my plan. Just keep adding speakers and amps until it sounds good.

Will do. I like learning stuff. Much more into learning and discovery now then when I was in school. School.... eye roll. Imagine if there was a speaker building class? Or a design your own subwoofer project!! Now that would’ve been real learning. But I digress....

Well at least it will fun to keep buying new toys and set that play up proper!!! Fun. !!

I'm right there with you Kodiak, that class would rock! count me in!!!

Even cross over design would’ve been cool. Or a HAM radio club. Now we’re talking. My schooled sucked big time.

I don't think anyone really liked their school... it's a thing... curious what year did you graduate HS? Ham radio?

Lol! Nerd!

I learned cross-over design. And amp design. I rock!

Just listened to the 150 v4 watching Schitt's Creek... it's fine. As one would expect you lose the high end as you get out of the dispersion cone of the tweeters but even at 60 degrees off axis it's not bad.

Show off.

Yeah man. Ham radio. It’s the better than Spotify. It’s got ALL the bands.

Muh ha haha. See what I did there...,,,

takes one to know one. ;-)

Ummmmm , we are all on an audio hi fi forum. There’s no saving any cool factor now. Nerds. The lot of us. It doesn’t matter though because,....... when your speakers start to image and disappear into the ether there’s nothing better.

Just saying. ( that’s what the cool kids these days say. ).

I hate fedex. They actually have had my sub at the sort facility here in town since Friday but they will hold it until the delivery day on Wednesday.

They may be listening to it. I hope they don't play whack-a-sub with it when they've had enough of it.

I had another package they did that with. Why would you not go ahead and deliver it? More people would be likely to ship with you if packages occasionally came earlier than expected. The FedEx guy actually told me they do that on purpose. If you don't pay for faster shipping they will not deliver early. Very poor business model.

I've had FedEx tell me that there was a package coming that I had to be present to sign for. Basically they have you waiting all day with a line like "delivery by 8pm".

Anyway, the FedEx truck pulls up. I open the door and stand there for two minutes as nothing happens. Then the truck pull away ... a minute later I get an exception text ... package not delivered because customer was not home.

The driver obviously saw or felt something that scared him/her. Are you a scary mother, Rich?

They actually brought it although the tracking never said out for delivery. That is definitely not going to fit in my car. Can't wait to see how big the boxes for the m100s are.

Is your front wall the 25’ wall beside the storage room?

The boxes are a bit difficult to commandeer unless you're a beefy, brawny boy like I am. I have however shared with everyone my preferred method of man-handling the floor-standers once they are out of their boxes. It is the famed "two-sphinctered" grip. If right-handed, gently place two fingers of the left hand in the front sphincter and two fingers of the right hand in the rear sphincter. If your hands are of the more genteel nature, three fingers may better secure said sphincters. For teensy tiny hands, fist the sphincters.

@Trevor Yes, the front wall is the 25' wall on the storage end. Sorry, I just saw that was meant for Rebulx

@Mojo I normally pick up tower speakers like I'm preparing for a caber toss

Add in the toss and you are well-qualified to be a FedEx employee.

No, I'm not scary ... and the neighborhood is as safe as it gets. I figured that someone forgot to put it on the truck or more likely the driver gave up looking for it. I was pissed mainly because I there obviously waiting and the driver said I wasn't. I sent the CEO an email about honesty ... someone must have read it as the package was delivered the next morning and it was a Sunday. This has happened more than once ... it's why I opened the door and stood there.

BTW: if your back seats go down you can move the M100's in most cars ... the problem comes in when you get a few subs with them.

The problem with my car is the subwoofers in my trunk would only allow me to move one at a time.

The late Siegfrid Linkwitz said it best and actives do the best job with rendering the illusion he describes:

"The magic occurs when the loudspeakers seemingly disappear from the sound scene, to the point where one is inclined to ask: what are these two contraptions in front of me doing? All that is perceived is a phantom scene. A scene, which is not hard bounded by loudspeakers, softly windowed and extends behind and above the speakers. While there is a sweet spot, namely the apex of an equilateral triangle, the scene does not collapse into the nearest speaker upon moving to one side, but stays between the speakers with a perspective similar to what one would hear at a concert sitting to the side.

The magic is difficult to describe in pictures or words but is recognized within 30 seconds when heard. It usually elicits a big smile or even laughter from the listener. Naive listeners, audiophiles and professionals alike recognize the naturalness of presentation. On many recordings it is 3D in front of the listener and resembles a concert experience. When watching movies on a screen between the speakers, on-screen dialogue and sounds are clearly separated from those off-screen. Center and side speakers are not missed as the two speakers alone render a smooth continuum."

Canes, you will be missing a lot without an 800. Maybe a 600. I don't know about the 600 because I don't have one. But I have two 500s up front and that last 10Hz the 500s can't do is real important.

I've been told that people can't hear below 20hz, what really matters is the sound above 20hz. having an EP600 I can say that mid range bass is sweet and very enjoyable. I enjoy it. You can find 16" woofers that perform much lower, but only the family dog will appreciate it.

Rlez, you've just described my worst nightmare. That is bat shit crazy! That would make for such a shity night. You have my sympathy. I hope the shipping gods shine down on you better in the future!

I'm almost certain I will end up with several subs in that room. Maybe two 800s up front and two 500s in the back.

Now you're talkin'. You may want to put the 800s in the back. They are monoliths so they may interfere with the acoustic radiation off the speakers.

I actually have some natural nooks in the room that the 800s might sit in perfectly. Would it be best to daisy chain the 800s on one .1 channel and the 500s on the other .1? I will run the 500s off of the dsp when I upgrade to the actives

I suppose you can experiment with them in nooks but they may go BOOM!

Yup, you can do that. I don't know if you have two separate .1 channels or 1 channel that is paralleled. You ought to check with Axiom for how many sealed subs you can run off of a single sub out. It depends on their input impedance and also on how much load (current) your .1 output is rated for. Check the specs for the .1 output.

My avr has two .1 channels so I think I would run a splitter off each of those to run 4 subs.

Or run to one sub and chain to another.

Finally test driving the 500.... I think I'm going to need to upgrade to the 600s up front. I'm going to continue tweaking the settings and move the sub around the room some to see if it makes some sound improvements. Unfortunately I will probably have to decide on the 500 before the 180 and m100s arrive. Multiple subs will definitely be needed in my room.

Canes, the best place for that 500 in your room may well be 1/3 or 2/3 of the way down your side-wall relative to the front left corner. It may sound best if it's moved a foot or so away from the wall.

The easiest way to locate the correct position is to place the sub where your main listening position is. Play a tune with bass. Then crawl along your side-wall and locate the positions where the smoothest bass is happening. Put the sub in any of those positions.

Should towers be set to small and crossed over at 40hz or 80hz when running a sub? Seems to be a lot of conflicting info out there about whether towers should be run large or small.

It very much depends on room acoustics, your fronts and subs and personal preference. Try 40, 60 and 80 and see what you prefer. Also try setting the sub's cross-over as well. I find setting my sealed subs to the same cross-over frequency as the AVR's cross-over works best for me in my room.

Thanks, Mojo. I certainly appreciate your advice.

You're welcome. Not sure if you know what to look for in bass performance. Musical bass ought to be tight, articulate, textured, space-filling and transparent. My cheap subs can't do this song justice. With my sealed subs, I hear no unexpected note overhang/resonance, deep, sharp yet smooth textures from string twangs and drum smacks and experience soul-filling emotion.

https://open.spotify.com/track/796kuTmB7Pz3YuYbChu58s?si=PSnGjUPJRxK4sei2MKtgkA

That's how I like my bass to sound. I'm not into boomy bass. It should be tight and exact and clean. I'm much more adept to subs when it comes to music than I am at movies.

Fortunately, with the Axiom sealed subs - which are very linear - once you tune them using music, they are set for movies. I find the Axiom sealed subs are really easy to integrate into a system.

The Large/small/crossover settings are kind of confusing.

Let's first cover/review what these parameters mean
(at least how I understand them ... please correct me if I have something wrong):

LARGE/SMALL
The large/small setting tells the receiver or processor if you want to send the speaker a full range signal (i.e. ignore the crossover setting) or If you want to redirect frequencies lower then the set crossover frequency for that speaker to the sub-out. So, Large = full range, Small = anything below the crossover frequency is not played on the speaker but sent to the sub.

Note: If your speakers are all set to large the sub-out may not send anything unless your playing a movie with an LFE channel (Low Frequency Effects channel)

SUB MODE
There is another parameter my 8805 calls Subwoofer mode. I can set this to either LFE or LFE+Main.
LFE works exactly as stated above: the sub will play the LFE channel and any low-end content redirected from speakers which are set to small. The Large speakers handle their own low-end.

In LFE+Main mode the subs will in addition be sent the low-end content of the Large speakers. ie. the frequencies below the set crossover of a large speaker will be sent to both the speaker and the sub. OR stated another way, the sub gets the low frequency content from all the speakers. (large speakers still play the full-range).


So, after all that we can talk about why you might want to set a speaker to large or small.
Obviously, if you have a small speaker which doesn't go low you want to set it to small and let the sub handle the frequencies it can't. 80Hz is a good choice because below that it's hard to localize where a sound is coming from and most small speakers can play that low.

But what if you didn't have a sub? In that case you might consider setting even a small speaker to large so the full frequency range gets sent to it. (Most receivers will do this automatically)

If you have floor standing speakers which can go fairly low ... say 30 Hz but you have a sub which can go even lower you might want to set that speaker to small with a fairly low crossover ... like 40Hz. Alternately you could set your subMode to LFE+main and play both (adjusting the sub knob for a smooth transition). The receiver also has a LPF (low pass filter) setting which you can set on the LFE.

Another reason you might set tower speakers to small is because you're trying to drive them with a marginal receiver. By off loading everything below 80Hz (just to pick a number) to the sub you might get a better cleaner performance and be able to crank it (where the receiver alone would run out of juice).

I'm sure there are other examples out there but each setup is unique and it's best if you understand these parameters to make the best trade-off for your situation.

The equivalent to LFE+Main on my Onk is Double Bass. LFE+Main is a Denon/Marantz/Integra term.

If you set some small speakers to large, and then play a bit louder than normal, you can ignite them or destroy their spiders. That's what happened to my Dreamcatchers. Unlike Axioms, some speakers are not designed to gracefully exceed their recommended maximums.

There's a reason that Max limits are given ...
I guarantee you that a Giga-watt applied to any axiom will not end well ...
Pretty sure it would void the warrantee too...

1 GW, applied to active LFR1100 for 200 nsec would be just fine. Do the math.

Damn, Ian built speakers that can take a Giga Watt.

Rather drink my whiskey and ginger and let you do the math

Now you know why they call them Dreamcatchers ...

Yup! They are rated "20-80W recommended amplification" but they can only take 30W peaks before they dynamically compress. And don't you dare put less than 40Hz into them because they go THWAAAPSNAAAP.

The M2v4, which sounds far better in all respects, and costs less today than Dreamcatchers did in 2010, can take 240W peaks from my Pioneer which I love so much but according to JohnK I am not supposed to, and not even blink. The M2v4 with a couple of sealed subs is all most audio lovers need but they'll never know it because bigger is supposedly always better.

Keep living the good life over there. Have a whiskey and ginger for me. I can't afford it because I just bought 4 subs and still have two more to go.

Dreamcatchers are the lower end of the line. The Mani 2's I had were one of the best sounding speakers I have ever heard. I drove them with VBA, Robertson and another amp I cannot recall - all well over 200 watts - with any problems.

Damn I miss those speakers!

This is why they sounded so good. Apparently very low and linear extension and high dynamic capability to boot.

I can tell you it was a major difference in the clarity on the Studio 80s. Set to small and the sub back to lfe-main and increase the x-over on the sub to 100. Still need more subs to fill out the room. Would a 600 be noticeably different than the 500?

Can't imagine a speaker which would blow because you drove it at less then 40Hz ... now if you told me it blew because the amp was in clip ...

At lower than 40Hz, the coil former was smacking into the backplate. It didn't blow. Eventually though I got tired of not being able to listen to them loud enough so I cooked them. Now the coil scrapes inside its gap.

Canes, the 600 goes about 10Hz lower than the 500. I won't have mine for another month. But its performance would be somewhat equal to my 800. It just can't go as loud. That 10Hz doesn't sound like much but it makes a tactile difference and renders the bass more transparent and room-filling.

Have you tried the linear/boost switch yet?

Yes I’ve tried the boost switch. I’m still messing with the avr settings to try to get everything dialed in.

The Studio 80 sounds clearer because the bottom driver is (mostly) freed from trying to reproduce frequencies below the x-over.

The Studio 80s will be relegated to firewood once you get the M100s.

Actually they will become my dad's problem again. I can't wait for him to get back to town so he can hear my new set up. He's a fan of the Axioms and all he has is the 150 and QS8s.

Your dad, a man of means, deserves to treat his ears-brain well.

I'm sure he will once he hears my set up and even more so once I upgrade to actives.

Well yeah...you've got to one-up dad.

BTW, look at you. You're already starting to understand better sound to the point where you want to show it off!

It'll be another step up just getting the ada 1500 and getting the speakers off of the avr amp.

Hmmmm...I dunno. Playing M100s off my Onk vs ADA-1000 or ADA-1500 didn't make any difference at normal listening levels. That's at 14 feet away in a 4200 cu ft room. 60% or more of the energy in music is below 100Hz or so. If the subs are doing all that work, the AVR doesn't have to.

I'll tell you what made a big difference for me moving from M80/150/QS8/600 v2 to passive v4:

1. Sealed Axiom subs. Just the 800 alone cinched it. It cleaned up the mess the 600v2 was spraying all over my room.
2. M5 or M100. Even M2s are much better than M80v2. Soundstage, imaging, mid-bass, mids, highs,...everything!
3. 160
4. QS10

The actives upped the emotional satisfaction by giving me an illusion of room boundary/soundstage expansion. They also offer higher image resolution and improved placement of those images on the stage. Both of these are major improvements over the passive system described above.

Now I need to work on erasing the boundaries through proper diffusion. That though is just gravy and me being particularly picky.

Well the amp would come last. Next up is the QS10s and that will at least complete my 5.1 system and give me my base starting point.

You won't need an amp with the avr-x6500h. Use the money saved from an amp to buy subs. Buy amps when you go actives.

If you are planning to go actives, forget about any room treatment.

I had to get the avr-x6700h which is pretty much the same just the 2020 model. I think it'll be qs10s next then I'll start adding additional subs. I'm really speaking in hypotheticals until the 180 and 100s show up then I'll know what my room sounds like. I hope I'll like the 180 as much as I think I will. I'd hate to have to swap it out for the 160 and have to wait another month.

The 180 should be fine as it's the bigger brother of the 160.

Can you please hurry up and get this done because the anticipation is killing all of us.

Seriously though, are you keeping real good notes of your experience? So you can then share with all of us? We live vicariously through the audio adventures of others.

You’ll have to talk to Ian about that. Just patiently waiting for my 21 days to be up. I pretty much make mental notes of everything I try and of course I now hang out on the forums to pick up suggestions and recommendations.

I second that motion!!! We want all the gorey nitty gritty details!!!

The Axiom factory is jammed tight with orders. There ain't enough MDF trees on the planet to supply Ian's needs. Did you all know he has to make his own magnets? I'm not kidding. He built a machine that births magnets.

Here it is: https://www.axiomaudio.com/pub/media/wysiwyg/pages/TomIanMagnetizer.jpg

Mojo, How do you know that their that busy?

Yeah, I saw that in one of their speaker build videos ...
I assumed it had to do with it being easier to building the motor before it's magnetized ... not to mention safer.
It could also be a cost savings, control over quality or ... all of the above ...
it would be interesting answer to know.

Well, Rich...come on man! How many MDF trees have you seen lately? NONE! Because Axiom used them all up.

I really think it’s because Mojo keeps buying all of their stock. I mean he already has an 800 that has a nad tickler switch.

Ian knows what I like, Canes.

Seriously though, Ian and his staff have got magic curves. They've finally sculpted them to addict anyone who listens to the v4. And now real wood veneer as a standard on top of the loyalty, 21 day ICW and trade-in programs. Prospects aren't dumb. They see the value. Now may be the best time to buy before Ian comes to his senses!

Trying to build up my loyalty discount so I can really take advantage of these sales.

Canes, have you considered branching subs off your QS10s? Full range on all channels.

Well by the time you get maxed out you won’t need anything more.

Untrue, Rich. Wait 'till you see what will be coming out. We'll all need them.

Not to sound stupid, but what exactly do you mean branching subs off of the QS10s?

The QS10s will get you down to 50Hz or so, maybe even 40Hz. Modern surround formats carry signals down to 20Hz. The convention is to send whatever bass the speakers can't handle to the .1 subs. I've discovered however that bass from its own channel and the .1 subs handling just LFE, results in a more nuanced soundscape.

My current setup is 4.1. My fronts are full range because I have dual 500s off DSPs. To make my sides full range, I plan on situating a 500 below each QS10. A speaker cable will bring the QS10 (high level) signal into the 500. The 500 will replicate the information below 80Hz sent to the QS10. This way, I will have true 4.1.

There's more to this unconventional plan. In addition to the four 500s, I will have two 600s and an 800. The two 600s will be in the back. The 800 will be front and centre lying down. These three will handle purely the .1 LFE during movies.

But it gets better. During two-channel music, the two left 500s will handle the left channel bass. The two right 500s will handle right channel bass. The 600s and 800 could be put into what you call LFE+Main or Double Bass as it is known on my Onk.

So in summary, 7 subs to allow true 4.1 with the ability to use all subs for 2-channel.

I actually thought that's what you were referring to doing but wasn't 100% positive. I'll have to keep that in mind when I start new wiring in wall. Going to add wiring to expand to 11.2 or 5.2.4 atmos. I can add a few extra runs to account for high level inputs to side subs.

After that, knowing mojo, he’ll start stacking actives ...

Think you’ve plateaued on the audio side of things ...
Maybe It’s time to tip your hat to a bit of video.
150” screen perhaps

Canes, you can also branch off your low level outs on your Denon. They may be less immune to noise though.

There's likely a lot of wisdom in Rich's advice. We'll see. I still need to upgrade my QS10s to actives.

Canes, Andrew said not to do high level off the QS10s. So low level is the way to go.

Yes, nice response!

For a bookshelf, the dynamics and frequency response was incredible. The owner/designer Vince was a charater and some of his design ideas were a bit out of the norm. These had dual woofers, one behind the other in the cabinet.

I also recall models that had an unusual substance that was for dampening inside. I think there was a model that had both inside and outside fully veneered to ensure cabinet stability!

Run everything off the .1 channels?

The speakers you had were veneered inside and I think they also had norez installed which is an acoustic dampening material. These extras don't necessarily make a speaker sound better.

Talking about extras, there's some significant material and labor cost in the Dreamcatchers. The port tube is angled likely to lower the Q of the tuning frequency. There's a film cap that probably costs as much as the tweeter; and it sits on a foamy. Components are hot-glued and hand-soldered. Protective wrap on the wires prevents rubbing noises. The coil is so damned cool I want to wear it around my neck. A bunch of resistors are in parallel because maybe discrete resistors have a lower noise floor than one single resistor or perhaps the bunch is a more exact value than a single. The purple dot on the tweeter smooths the highs according to the sales guy.

The sum of all this cool stuff didn't make them sound better than the M2v4 or M3v4 bookshelves. That was frankly very unexpected. I really liked their sound until I heard v4.

I was referring to feeding subs for side speakers off your Denon pre-amp outs. If you ever add amps, you can use RCA splitters. They are cheap and readily available. One side of the splitter can go to the amp and the other to the side sub.

I think you may want to update your display and receiver before you add more subs Mojo.

PJ time?

Yeah, Mojo! Do a laser projector and rub it in my face.

That’s a clever idea. Can use the avr amp for heights or sides and use the side preout to feed the subs. Will the avr send the same signal through the speaker outputs and the preamp simultaneously?

Both my Onk and Pioneer steer simultaneous signals out of the speaker and pre-amp outputs. My Pioneer is two channel and has pre-outs. I feed the M2OW with the speaker outputs and my dual subs with its pre-outs.

Yeah, I hear you both. I am actually not as nuts about video as I am about audio. I would like to see my Onk blow up so I can get a receiver or pre/pro but I see no other receiver or pre/pro that I yearn for. The Onk is serving my 4.1 channel needs very well.

Neither was I..... I thought.

Goddammit!

Wow. My M100s and VP180 just shipped 2 weeks earlier than expected. Outstanding.

I gave up my place in line for you 'cause I already have actives and 3 subs so I figured you needed those M100s and VP180 more than I needed 6 more subs.

Thanks. I appreciate that. Really anxious to get those hooked up and see how much different the room sounds. If they follow the same cadence as the sub I should have them on Monday.

Everything arrived this morning. Can't wait to hook them up. Now my wife is talking about making an actual theater area in the basement which if we use the area we are discussing it drops me down to only 3000 cubic feet.

I thought you'd have 25x25x9 for the theatre. No? That would be over 5500 cu ft.

We do have that area but now she wants to move everything to another section and soundproof and block everything off and use it like a small theater room. This area would be 15 x 23 x 9

The front wall would be 15 feet?

In that area we can make the front wall on either 15 foot wall or on one of the 23.

Most would set it up on the 15 foot wall which can result in nice depth if you follow Trevor's guidelines. But it limits the width of the soundstage. 15 feet is a lot of width though so you likely have nothing to worry about.

We also have an area that will be walled off with a door that will make the room rectangular that we would use for our audio equipment so it would be hidden. I think we would need to make the main listening position around 10-12 feet to keep the 100s off the side walls and keep the correct distances for sound.

A 12 foot width is OK but 10 feet is getting small. On the other hand, the 12 foot width is getting close to half the length and acoustically that's not great.

Would it be better to keep the mlp greater than half the length? I know there are some acoustical calculations but I haven't really gotten into that yet.

Start with this. Backs 8 feet off the front wall, 10 feet apart at the tweeter mid-points and sit 13 feet away from each speaker (13 feet diagonally).

15x23x9 is a fantastic size. You even have enough room for a AT false wall setup if you wish.

15 should be the front wall.

Test driving the vp180 and it definitely does not have the off axis issues the 150 had. I stood up, sat down, walked from one side of the room to the other and with the exception of a very small drop off from the tweeters the 180 sounded linear no matter where I moved. Obviously the mlp had the highest clarity but I will probably be the only one who notices the slight sound difference because I was looking for it. The m100s will not fit into my car so I have to wait for the rain to clear out to get them home on the truck. I can't wait to hear all of these speakers running together and even more so after the break-in period.

You got M100s Cane? imho best speakers ever created. you and everyone else who hears them will be very pleased. What are you using to power them?


btw, went with the VP160 myself, hope to see it soon, also grabbed a new M2 and M3 for surrounds.

The active LFR1100s are better. Except in my living room. There, the M2OWv4 and dual 125v4 shine.

The VP160v4 is excellent. Don't look back.

Rebulx, you really ought to get an EP125v4 for the workshop. I'm sure Ian can don some paint and slap his sexy ass on your sub if you ask him nicely.

Rebulx, yes I picked up a pair of the m100s. The 180 is huge. It's as wide as my current tv and I had to sit it on a coffee table temporarily until I get my audio shelves built. It was too tall to sit where I had the 150. Looking forward to getting the m100s home and hearing them hopefully this weekend.

Canes,

I would like to hear your thoughts. I have almost the same set up and room size. I have M100s drive by an ADA 1500 driving EP 180 and M100s. 4 QS10s driven by a 7 channel AdA 1250. 2 EP500. It over kill for my room size but who cares it sounds fantastic. What AMP do you have for the 100s?

RJ

They’ll be running off my avr to start, but with the size of my room I feel like amplifiers will be necessary as I tend to play movies very loud. I’m going to start with the qs10s next and see how everything sounds and determine the need for external amps. I will probably add another 600 and possibly some 125s for the sides since mojo spoke so highly of his.

I hope you have port plugs ready for those M100s, Canes. Of course your XT32 can nicely clobber bass peaks. Unfortunately it wreaks havoc with highs. And can make bass less interesting. Love the actives and sealed subs. I have no need for EQ. FINALLY!

The QS10s are plug and play BTW.

I wonder what happened.

They haven’t made it home yet. We’ve been busy trying to fix the yard and get seed down before it gets too cold so we don’t have a muddy mess this winter. I’m going to get them home this weekend and spent a few days getting everything tuned.

I'm no gardener but isn't it a bit late for seeding?

If you put grass seed down on top of snow the birds eat most of it and then poop under your carport.

I just had the trees on my property thinned so all the paths are torn up... I was thinking about trying to get some seed down before winter if I can get the garden tractor to start (seems like fuel blockage).

There are lots of other things that need tractor time first though, like dragging the driveway to minimize the number of ice patches I slip on when snowblowing the driveway.

We planted winter rye to get us through until spring. Once it warms up we will get Bermuda grass down

How does the return process work? Trying to be prepared in sending the 500 back once the 600 arrives.

Canes, I can tell you from personnel experience that your receiver plays a HUGE roll in how those speakers sound. First, I loved my 100s with a crappy receiver, got a good amp and loved then more, upgraded my receiver and know I realize that you don't know what you just don't know. The new receiver is a world of difference! It's my understanding that is what makes the actives so sweet, they take all that crap out of the equation, I just took the long ass scenic route!

Finally got the m100s home late last night but I haven't unboxed and set them up yet. Wife works this weekend and it's going to rain so I'll have a lot of time to set up and listen. My 600 is coming today too so that'll be another toy to play with. Rebulx, hopefully my Denon AVR plays them well enough which I think it should being one of their higher end models. I'm still curious how the return works, does Axiom send return labels or do I just schedule the return with FedEx to pick up?

Your Denon will be great. You need that 500. Read my other post from yesterday.

I always follow your posts because of the sheer number of speakers/subs that you have. For now I can't keep both the 500 and 600. Once I hear the 600 I will have a better idea of how I'd like to fill out the room with subs. For what it's worth I did have an sb16 ultra in my HT before I bought the 500. It was decent but something about the sound wasn't as clean as I like it. My guess is the woofer size. It seems very similar to my car subs, I prefer 10" subs in my car because they are tighter sounding and I've had everything from 8" to 18" subs but the 10" subs always seem to be the sweet spot. I already preferred the 500 over the sb16 even thought the svs was louder.

It is not the size of the driver on the SVS. They all sound similar regardless of driver size. We can speculate as to why that is - whether SVS has chosen to do this or they simply don't know better. They definitely are not musical. Fundamentally, they lack articulation. The sealed Axioms do not. You'd have to be deaf to not hear this difference.

I have my SVS 2000 next to my EP600 and I can't agree more. It's just a driver in a box, but there is big difference in sound. The 600 is SOO much smoother and more pleasant to listen to. I've positioned the SVS ports along the couch and they act as a vibrating tumbler for movies, lol. I have a friend picking it up next month.

Canes, not sure on return process, my on walls were damaged (aesthetically) in shipping and those were the only ones I didn't like. I don't think Axiom wants them back, at least I hope not as my wife threw all the boxes away, after two months she was tired of them being in the living room. The great news is that I can now play calming music, to relax the beast within. it's just safer for everyone. I would not expect Axiom to pay for the return shipping, but I could be wrong. I discovered KEF charges a 5% restocking fee on top of the shipping, had to swallow that one and ship some stuff back, cost a decent dime. But I had to compare.

I am so addicted to the EP bass. Every groan, grunt and growl is rendered so pristinely. Not only the sealed subs; also the EP125 but of course not as deep.

Tomorrow I get the 600s in walnut caramel. I'll have all three Axiom sealed subs. Given my nightmares with the 600v2, I thought long and hard about the 600v4. But I have so much confidence in Axiom now, my fears melted away. When Ian confirmed the 600v4 reaches as low as the 800, my 'nads gave a little twitch at the thought of dual 600s tickling them.

Everyone who hears these v4 subs wants them. They've never heard such texture and finesse.

Rebulx, Axiom got back to me on the return process so I'm good to go there. Loaded up the 600 in my car this morning, it barely fit, and I'll be hooking it up with the m100s this weekend. The SVS sub lacked the accuracy I look for. Even though the 500 wasn't big enough to fill the space I could still tell a massive difference in sound.

Canes, you need four 600s. Forget 500s and 800s.

Everything is home and ready for new wiring this weekend. The 600 is huge I can't imagine the size of the 800. I put the 600 beside the Studio 80s and I laughed out loud because it made the towers almost look like bookshelves. Sitting next to the m100s it's a thing of beauty but I definitely need the outriggers to make everything more stable especially with a hyperactive siberian husky and a child running around. Looking forward to running everything through its paces this weekend. It'll be the first of the year before I get the second 600 and I'll keep adding until I hit audio euphoria.

The 600 up to v3 was the same size as the 800. Like the 500, it was ported. Axiom made a big mistake that really hurt them when they went for loud over clean. They tried to justify to themselves that distortion on the low end can't be heard. It didn't help matters when Axiom fan boys kept on about how wonderful they were. Eventually Axiom came to their senses and built these wonderful sealed subs. They give us loud, clean, articulate SPL. And, generous programs were introduced to get the holy sound out to the people. Not only are all sins wiped clean, but we ought to build shrines for worship.

I always figured the 600v4 looked kinda funny. Not any longer. Now that it's here, I love how it looks. The 500, 600, 800 all look great. I am so glad we get the real wood finish which is as addictive as the sound.

There isn't a single v4 I have not liked. Heart and soul were poured into this line. It's evident when people who have never cared where music came from, perk up and pay attention to the gear. It's gear that bucks trends and is in its own league.

Canes do you need outriggers? Have you already ordered them?

Yeah I ordered a set. I think they’ll help stabilize the towers. I hooked everything up and played a few tunes through it. All I can say is wow. The soundstage is amazing. I still haven’t dialed them in yet but the improvement over the Studio 80s is impressive. Also, the 600 is a major difference over the 500 in my room. I will really sit down and push these speakers over the weekend. I can’t wait to see how they sound once I get everything set up properly. To be continued...

Canes, the M100s are very good but they are like Studio 80s compared to active LFR1100s.

With the actives and multiple sealed subs, I now yearn for absolutely nothing!

The actives are on my wish list for sure. My dad may want to buy the 100s from me after he hears them.

The M100s are without question the most bang for your buck speaker on the market. I've been listening to lots of high-end speakers and just love the value the M100s. Even had the chance to hear KEF blades and B&W 800 D3s last week which cost tens of thousands more. Those beasts perform better but nobody in their right mind would spend that kind of money after listening to a pair of M100s which cost 3k compared to 30k.

It's also worth noting that I took a B&W 702 s2 a few days ago and placed it next to a M100. With a little PEQ you could barely hear a difference. The 5k 702's had a slightly better sound stage but it was not noticeable to anyone else but me, the guy who spent the extra money on the 702s.

Canes, what do you having pushing your new 100s?

My personnel experience dialing them in (my not ideal listening environment) is to adjust the EQ to dip in the mids with a good bump on the highs. The 100s have incredible low bass extension so you don't have to do much there. I recommend an SLM for setting levels after distance. But you probably know all that stuff.

In my living room, I'd put the M2OWv4/dual 125v4 against any of the speakers in your signature, Rebulx. No EQ allowed and fed with my Pioneer. I'd even put them against the Axiom actives, KEF blades and any B&W floor-stander or bookshelf. M2OW = RESPECT!

We'll see how the M5OW fare come Monday.

Looking forward to hearing about the m5OW comparison.

That’s some high praise coming from both of you guys. M100s vs b and w and m2ow ep125 vs everything!!!

Those m2ow and ep125 must just be the perfect match to your room size and all. And careful placement too maybe. That’s awesome.

It is indeed a serendipitous coupling of room, speaker, speaker location and MLP. No floor-stander or bookshelf can defeat physics and do what the on-walls do.

I'm not sure I can't jump on that band wagon mojo, but I can say for certain that after buying all these speakers, I LOVE AXIOM even more than before and will be buying many more.

As it is right now, you have enough speakers to build a few home theatres.

Rebulx- I’m running mine with a Denon AVR x6700h. I’m still getting them dialed in to my room. I think I’m going to run audyssey next and see how it sets it up.

No question about it! lol, your totally right! I've got two rooms down with only a few more to go!

Here is a new photo with the lovely VP160, which has the best finish Axiom has to offer, btw... everything is in transit with speaker wires laying about until I decide on final placements. AMP, receiver, and center are new. Talking with Ian on a custom cab quote to fit the room better.



And the second MESSY room... finding speakers in this pic is like a wheres waldo game, lol!

What finish is that on the Axioms?

I see the B&W 606, the M5OW and the B&W 702 S2. I think I see a few in the garbage as well. LOL!

Axiom is going to build a cabinet?

lol, tough to tell the difference between whats trash and what isn't in the garage right now. Now that the time has changed it's less fishing and more garage time!

I was told it's the VP160 finish is Axion's all new Boston Cherry. Looks amazing! Thats without the high gloss too. Very impressive.

Ian mentioned a custom cabinet is something they can do. He shared the loss in frequency response. I'm looking further into that. Looks vs sound!!!

You know, Boston Cherry was scratching at me. A long, sinewy, twisted finger of Boston Cherry was tapping at my lower back and slowly dragging its way up my spine. That Cherry Chestnut started it all.

Hmmm...maybe I'll get a Boston Cherry top for my Air Force. I really don't care for the Walnut Nutmeg.

I thought when you said cabinet you meant entertainment unit. Yes, he does customs. He did a sealed M80 for Slimpikins. He's using it as a center with his Model Ts. He also did a short version of the 160 to cut down on the height.

yeah, the new boston cherry is totally different. The wood grain is life like and looks amazing. It's without question a few notches up from the old boston cherry.

I've been looking at the Brystons (by Axiom). The idea of 8" drivers seems like good fun, but the three 6" woofers on the M100s is really amazing. I don't see much room for improvement. But when you get into custom builds and shortening the box depth, perhaps larger drivers will be the way to go. I have width, not depth (please don't turn this into a penis joke, lol) in all seriousness, i'm very limited on the depth. So maybe two 8" drivers would be better?

Uhmmm...the 8" drivers would indeed be most excellent for a larger room. Sorry but even the triple 6.5" HP drivers can't pump it up in my 4,200 cu. ft. room. The living room is a different story. So yeah...triple 8 inchers all the way. Slimpikins has his Model T signatures fed with Anthem M1 2000W amps off a separate power panel and they rock his 'nads in his 10,000 cu. ft.+ space.

Now I'm not complaining because my multiple sealed subs offer an impeccably articulate and dynamic bass. The bass in my main room is now superior to the ungodly bass offered by just the actives in my living room. It took money and work though.

The problem with a wider cabinet is diffraction. As for 8" woofers, not sure Axiom can provide that on Axiom speakers. There has to be differentiation between Bryston and Axiom. The immediate, visible difference is the driver size.

My good buddy was over two days ago. He's the one who, slowly over the years, has converted from a neophyte to a more critical listener. He started off with my Bose 601s Series II, then Klipsches (he says that was a big mistake), then KEFs and now to M100s. He also couldn't resist the QS10s.

Anyway, like me, he's always enjoyed the M2OW/dual crappy sub system in my living room. He also really liked it with the EP125s which, as he says, really cleaned up the bass and added even more emotion. He has never vocalized a comparison between my living room system and the actives downstairs.

As I said above, I've replaced the M2OW with the M5OW. I also added two more sealed subs downstairs and got rid of a bunch of furniture down there. I had two large leather couches that I knew were mucking with my bass and other bands. As Trevor has said, acoustically reflective leather can be problematic; cushy fabrics may be better. By the way, I don't want anyone to think the sound was crappy. Far from it but I knew it could be better. And indeed when I got rid of the two couches, the already terrific imaging improved. We're sitting on Costco lawn chairs now which look comical but are actually far more comfortable.

So I found it very interesting, when I was examining my notes this morning, that he, for the first time ever, while listening to the actives, drew a comparison between the living room and basement systems. As he was listening, he turned to me and said in a very matter-of-fact way, "Wow. The quality of the bass compared to upstairs is remarkable. And the clarity is astounding." And of course indeed both are true. But the living room system is no slouch.

I do wonder though what caused him to make this comparison. The bass down there was always better than upstairs. Maybe he's just getting more critical. It's a dangerous path to walk down for sure.

You need to post more pics mojo!!!

I look forward to your opinion and love your stories, advice is just a bonus!

I've pretty much run out of things to say. Some will be very pleased about that.

I'll post some sexy photos tomorrow in my other thread. There may be some speakers in those photos too. LOL!

I never thought I'd say it but I love my 600s. Whoever has my 600v2 ought to trade it in for the v4.

My dad is still using my hand-me-down v2. I wonder if it's still functioning. Axiom still hasn't gotten back to me about all of the stuff I am supposed to send in for trade-in. One of the EP800s I was going to send in was one I just replaced without it being part of the trade-in, since the amp went out, so maybe I can convince him to buy a new amp for that one.

That’s interesting .... Both Andrew and Debbie have mentioned some kind of FedEx return label issue which seems like it’s been going on for months now. (I also have a bunch trade-ins/exchanges waiting.)

Denon has several surround settings but to me it looks like it wouldn't be beneficial to use anything other than direct/auto, stereo, and multi-channel. Those three settings run audio direct from the source material. Just wondering what everyone else is using.

I really want to pull the trigger on the QS10s this month too but if my clients don't start paying their bills I won't get to take my year-end bonus. For shits and giggles I hooked up the QS8s and the studio 80s as side and rear surrounds.

Oh yeah? Are you a capo or an under-boss? Losing your bonus is better than getting whacked, tough guy.

I used to enjoy PLII and Neo a lot when I had passive speakers. With the actives, not so much. Sometimes though, PLII and Neo are very good. For example, the other week we were watching Norah Jones: Live in New Orleans. The 5.1 is horrible. Stereo is much better. And PLII and Neo are better yet.

How do the 100s sound? Are you getting width and depth and images across and into the stage?

Loving the 100s so far. The imaging and soundstage is amazing and something the Studio 80s lacked entirely. The 180 has been a massive upgrade as well. The 600 fills the room so much better than the 500 did too. With the 500 I could tell there was bottom end sound but it didn't really carry the room. The 600 seems to have massive sound in comparison even at lower volumes. I will probably tinker with audyssey this weekend just to see how much it wants to adjust my current settings.

The M80v2 were the same, dull presentation. I don't know about v3. v4 are all a completely different emotional impact. I'm considering trading in my 500s for 600s.

It's great that you are satisfied. I suggest adding one more 600 and arranging them opposite each other. For example, one in right front corner and the other in rear left corner. This did wonders in my living room with dual EP125s.

I moved the 600 from front left, which was more open, to front right, which is closer to a corner, and it has helped broadcast the sound further into the room. Sound now carries into the other half of the basement which is all storage area.

That makes sense. One of the wonderful things about these EP subs that no one talks about, is the fact that they maintain linearity even in a corner. You get maybe a 3dB boost in SPL in a corner but it's not a one-note boost.

Even though sound now is "bigger", it is not as articulate as it can be. A second 600 will help and you will hear the improved articulation.

Why?

I can't say I am not happy. This is by far the most incredible bass I have ever heard anywhere. My buddy who bought M100s a few weeks back can't stand the fact that even with those and an SVS, he doesn't have anything close to what I have. He doesn't have it bass-wise and he doesn't have it in terms of spatial extension, imaging and resolution. Dynamics, even at lower listening levels, are also better. It's just so effin' good...OMG!

Nonetheless, the 600s go deeper than the 500s. It's not subtle. That additional extension makes a difference even with music (I really don't care about movies because it's already more than good enough). It's the resolution. You can hear it in the growl of a bass guitar or the thwack of drums.

Admittedly, I don't fully understand why this is. Certain drums have very low subharmonics and those subharmonics are sometimes enhanced by the recording engineer. But string bass doesn't have harmonics I don't think. There's something going on though that I don't understand because bass and drums sound better on the 600.

Hmmm, I have not tested the 500 and 600 side by side ... but I'm fairly sure I would not hear the difference. So far anytime I thought I was hearing anything below 20Hz ... it was because I was not ... Ha! Bet you even know what what I'm talking about there

Yeah, I do know. Because I can't properly justify it in my mind, I am going to put it out of my mind. The 500s stay. Like I said, I am not suffering.

Perhaps you can get a friend to help you run a blind test ... so you can properly justify it

Uh huh...you'd be a great Axiom sales guy.

Okay so I switched the receiver over to “auto” so it simply plays the source material and all I can say is “wow.” The whole dynamic changed. Played a wide array of music and the 100s were on another level. I had it playing in stereo and had to get up and walk to the center speaker to make sure it wasn’t playing. I could see the center light indicator on the receiver was off but the music I was hearing was so enveloping I thought there’s no way the center isn’t on. Switched over to a few blu ray movies and was blown away again. I had no idea what was missing using the artificial surround modes. Natural is by far the way I’m going to be moving forward. If it wasn’t my child’s bedtime earlier I’d still be downstairs with my jaw on the floor. I am highly impressed by everything I’m hearing now and I can’t wait to get back down there for another listening session.

Canes, good for you. What a feeling, eh?

You should also be able to "see" images in 3D if positioned properly. All v4 do that. Even M2.

Once you get your QS10s up, there's nothing wrong with sound mode experimentation. There are settings in there to allow you to mess around with spatial imaging.

When I had just the 800, switching to a sound mode caused bass to diminish. Not any more!

I’m still working on the sweet spot. I’ll continue to shift the speakers around to see how the positioning changes the sound. I went through the sound modes but my ears kept taking me back to natural. There are still a lot of settings on the avr I haven’t explored yet but I have a new starting point to see if the sound improves or not. I played some Glenn Miller and I could definitely “see” where the instruments were. I was already impressed with the 100s before but now it’s a whole new ballgame. They aren’t even through the break in period so I can’t wait to see them stretch their legs. The 600 also improved based on the new settings.

The sound no longer feels muted. I’m listening at lower volume but getting better sound than I was at higher volume on the other settings.

The best way to tweak speaker position is 2-channel in phase and out of phase pink noise.

In phase should come from a well-defined point dead centre. With my actives, that point is more like a medicine ball. It's very righteous.

Out of phase shows you the relative response left vs. right. If your speakers are placed symmetrically in your room, the responses should be equal. If not, the one closer to the sidewall will have a diminished response relative to the other.

With a good sound system (which includes room and placement), you should not have to play loud to experience emotional fulfillment. Since I added more subs, I've been able to turn the volume down even further. I love it!

first and only rule of this thread, DO NOT discuss exchanges, please don't mess up the good thing Covid has working for us ALL, lol, seriously though, not kidding... after 45 days = no return, I have found that is the maximum amount of time a wife can wait while boxes pile up in the living room, or the reasonable amount of time a judge can expect a "normal" wife to wait...Laughing My Ass Off!. btw, anyone that has worked with Axiom in the past knows they care more about your experience than returning old speakers. I have first hand experience in that regard... and lets be honest, they are literally the only speaker company brave enough to have a forum and for good reason. I have three businesses and i'm scared shitless to let all my customers post online.. although I must admit i'm considering it now. maybe it's the way of the future. you just need a little mojo on your side to keep an eye on things.

Yeah, I think it's better to find out from your own boards than the boards of others. And if some are very pleased, they may be motivated to help others experience the goodness.

Why don't the two of you play house with all the boxes? Get the kids in on it. LOL!

Thats a very true statement as most people can't hear that low. I was in a listening room last week with martin logans, B&Ws, and some SVS subs among other brands. A guy asked the sales rep about the svs subs and he explained that they knock hard and fast and not as musical as some others. I have an SVS 2000 next to an EP600 and can say I bought the Axiom because of the specs, but the 600 is seriously more musical, gentle, and easier to listen to. I've positioned the SVS2000 towards the couch so it vibrates the seats which is good fun, but when enjoying great music or showing off the system I have to turn it off. I've learned from spending a shit load of money these last few weeks, it's not about specs or how low a speaker can go, it's about how it sounds getting there. I've also learned that the cabinet size makes a huge difference in sound quality.

Perhaps the 600 cabinet size only changes the sound so much, but I can say that the look with the high gloss white finish completes our room. I only wish I got the 800 now. lol

Canes, I'd bet you can retrieve more detailed imaging from the M100s with XT32 engaged. You may want to try correcting just the 100s and not the 600. Set the cross-over to 80Hz on the Denon and leave the 600 wide open.

Rebulx, there's still room in there for the 800 when you get rid of the boxes.

lol, I literally had a whole other room just for the boxes But don't tempted me mojo, the 800 would be fun, but due to my room size it would be more for looks than actual sound.


Are you recommending the 100s at an 80hz crossover? The low bass extension on the 100s are amazing. I can also speak from experience when stating that a new receiver with an updated DAC will make a huge difference in sound quality. Also an external amp makes a big improvement as well.

I've found 80Hz works best. With my 100s, I used to switch between 80 for movies and 60 for music. With the M5s, M50s, M2s and M3s, I use 80. I also find it difficult to align speakers with the rest of the system when the speakers are playing wide open. Group delay comes into play and the bass does not sound as "fast" as it can be.

Some say "I got these great speakers that go down to 30Hz and I paid for that and want to use them down that low". I say if that works in your room, go for it. Otherwise, rest assured your speakers will go down that low, even with the 80Hz cross-over, and the entire system consisting of room, speakers, electronics and ears-brain will work better. The speakers just won't be as loud down there and that's OK.

I've found the actives play wide open much better than any other Axiom. Nonetheless, at an 80Hz cross-over they sound better particularly with multiple subs. They play much better because they are more linear. There's only so much a designer can do with passive speakers and I'm pretty sure Axiom optimized the v4 as best as anyone possibly could within the current architecture. I realized this immediately when I first got my M5v4.

Mojo - I have both the 180 and the 100s crossed over at 80 and the 600 crossed over at 100. I only have the gain at about 3/4 on the 600 right now. Do you think I should open it up more?

It's a good question. The best answer I can provide is you ought to experiment. I'll tell you about my experience. Yours could end up being different.

With a single 800, I had the 800 knob set to 80Hz which was the same as the Onk's cross-over. Wide open absolutely sounded not that good.

With the 800 and dual 500s, I ended up with the 800 at 40Hz and the dual 500s at 80Hz. Again, wide open did not sound that good.

With the 800, dual 500s and dual 600s, they are all set wide open (150Hz) and the Onk is set to 80Hz. It sounds more full, more transparent and more "musical" that way. It's the best I've ever heard anywhere.

So let your listening be your guide. Ultimately of course, equipment and listening is ideal.

I also noticed Denon has a setting to indicate that the speakers are 6 ohm. It's on default 8 ohm now. Should that be adjusted? I'm assuming no.

Don't set to 6! It will limit dynamic range by folding back the output voltage to the M100s.

That's what I figured would happen.

Need some recommendations on what is the golden listening track for dialing in 100s and subs?

I also have to add that I've given the M80 on walls a second chance, now that I have a new receiver and amp. The final verdict is.... i love these guys now. Crossed over at 80hz they perform very well and will stay mounted on my walls (even the damaged one, thank you fedex). I now only have good things to say about these speakers. I've swapped the tweeters to the older Axiom Tis and I think these are perfect now. Sealed speakers can be unique and require some dialing in with the receivers PEQ but at the end of the day, I enjoy them. I will be taking some pics soon. They look pretty sexy too.

well said, and I think i'm agreeing, but it's still a plunge.

yeah, the younger ones love the boxes! They get excited when they see the fedex guy now, not for the speakers, but the new addition to their box house! lol

Good bass tracks:

https://open.spotify.com/track/7koyGh99hHS97hcQcxpAro?si=zNZ6ikEeQZq8V4yk4uEyYA

https://open.spotify.com/track/6RKF9byLOenU0J79r1g5rm?si=XgTuBHRSTwuS43UfPnvFeQ

In your room, start with the 600's phase at 0 and polarity at normal, 600 x-over at 150, 600 volume at 1/3, receiver sub volume at 0.

If the bass sounds too thick, lower the 600's x-over to 100.

Turn the SVS off.

When you get it all set it up right, there's some nice growling in this tune:

https://open.spotify.com/track/5kHlvtGBiLEPcUBhd35CSj?si=-zhu93I7TU2L141TNSTq7Q

Some tuneful bass here to funk around with.

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5ijvPUkDJf1k6V99wClSao?si=IqAi182pSBmHDW-vOcJdgg

Level 42- something about you
https://open.spotify.com/track/2uXewDKMktNkkMfotqSxN6?si=SiXR1EgISOexhMD76OHIuw

Perfect song for system setup. Set up a bunch with it. Middle of the road so no one offended.

Hmmm...I've heard this song a lot but never realized there's a lot of nice bass pop and articulation in them there notes.

For when Toto- Rosanna gets boring. Lol.

Considering trading in the 180 for a 160. If I do that it'll allow me to get the QS10s too. Decisions decisions.

If you don't do it, how will you ever know? You already know you need the QS10s.

The QS10's are excellent ... I have them in a 5.1 setup (w/ M2 fronts, VP150ow center, and EP500) and I have not been wanting as far as sound goes (considering the room and it's function). It's worth stretching a bit.


If the answer to the next question is only a difference of $$ then the decision is easy:
What does the 180 give you that the 160 does not ... and do you need it?
(The reverse is also true ...)

It seems that all the V4 centers are pretty good (although I can't speak for the VP100). I have the 180 and would not hesitate to recommend it. Given the high praise of the 160 by people I trust here I would not hesitate to get that either. The VP150 get's diss'ed here a lot but I'm convinced that's because everyone is referring to pre V4 versions .... the 150V4 on-wall, in the 5.1 setup above, is a fantastic match with the M2's. I'd recommend that as well.

Besides the money, I think the center decision comes down to the size of your screen and the size of the room you want to fill. The 180 is huge and I'm pretty sure you would not want it under a 40" TV. It's an excellent choice for something like a projection screen. The 160 has a vertical requirement to consider.
The 150 in my mind fits visually with most tv's today. IMO the on-wall versions are the way to go if you care about the visual appearance or having any space to place your equipment on. So far, I've been very impressed by the on-wall versions of Axiom speakers ...

The on-walls are another one of these big secrets. If prospects knew how good they sounded, they'd go for them over floor-standers. But they have less macho man factor and that's important for some.

I'd like to see active LFROW.

You'll have to install some virtual walls first ...

In the j-plane.

Actually, it might be possible with M100ow + some combo "reflection" speakers ...
Guess Axiom will have to create it's own surround system.

volume...volume... volume... folks.... i'm pretty sure it's why the M2 on walls get such high praise! I've just ordered two from Ian and plan to order at least two more sets after auditioning them. imho, it's all about cabinet volume.

Rebulx, I don't know if you'll like them. They don't have balsy bass. I suppose you know that from the M2 bookshelves. That's nothing an EP600 can't fix though. And the spectrum on up is clean and involving.

I don't expect the M2 on walls to have any bass, at all. Probably will be crossed over at 90-100hz, maybe higher. I hope they will be excellent additions as the upper presence speakers.

So true. I've now tried every M5HP variant, and OW are my favourite. They sound every bit as good as the bookshelves, and integrate so nicely with a big wall-mounted TV. Macho man factor can be achieved simply by removing the grilles.

If I had a dedicated music listening space that allowed for proper placement, I'd likely opt for traditional bookshelves/floorstanders.

bman, what differences did you notice between the three variants? I've never used in-walls so I'm particularly interested in what you found different between those and on-walls and bookshelves.

I haven't spent a ton of time with the on-walls yet, but initial observations are that IW don't sound as full, lacking in midbass, imaging was hampered (probably due to proximity to wall-mounted TV). IW are not ported.

OW and bookshelf are very similar, with the OW rolling off sooner on the low end (and also being easier to tame). ARC Genesis wants to cross both at 80hz. OW might actually sound better than a sub-optimally placed bookshelf.

I don't think you'll have any issues with them as presence speakers.

I'd like to contrast the listening window and sound power curves of the M5 vs. the M2. The M2OW are able to maintain the center image wayyyyy off axis. I can't say that about the M5OW.

Bman, are you saying that the cabinet volume in the bookshelves make no difference? The M5 on walls perform the same?

bman said the OW roll off sooner on the low end. Hence bookshelves have larger bass 'nads. But sometimes those 'nads don't fit properly in a room. Cutting them off at 80Hz and steering those lows to a sub or five sure helps.

Gotcha, that makes sense. thanks mojo.

Yeah dude. We can both relate to 'nads.

Or at least relate to cutting them off.........depends how you read that.

I think I’ll skip joining that club for now.

I can vouch both the OW and bookshelf M5 models have more than ample 'nads even if excised at 80Hz.

Yeah, I couldn't help shuddering a bit when I read about "cutting them off at 80 Hz".

we really need to find a new analogies. lol

The M2 on walls arrived today. I have to say I just love them. it's really amazing how much sound they push out of such a little cabinet. They are the cats meow for sure. I will be getting more! it's funny how I've gone from hating on walls to just loving them! These M2ow's are perfect for surrounds and tucking into corners that blend into the kitchen and living room. You have to hear them to believe them. I was swapping the M2, M5, and M80 on walls, and there is no doubt about it, the M2's are without question the most bang for your buck speaker out there. Whether it's the on wall or bookshelf... as you all can tell I'm finally drinking the cool aid... and I'm loving it!

I wonder what happened. Maybe all the talk around 'nads scared Canes off.

I decided to hold off for the interim. They are working on adding the HP speakers to their trade-in list and I'm still really enjoying my 180. I'm thinking to keep the QS10s at an equidistance from the MLP I'm going to have to hang them from the ceiling and I'm not sure how that will sound with 9 foot ceilings. I don't think I can hang them on the wall because the one side of the room widens at the one side because you get beyond the steps that come into the room so one QS10 would be firing into the wall where the steps are and it would be 6 feet further away from the MLP than the other surround. It may not make a difference but I feel like they need to be firing into the room the same way at the same distance from the MLP.

Nads didn't scare me it's just been insanely busy at the office going into the end of the year.

I think you should hang it on the wall. Your Denon will adjust for the timing and sound pressure. Just do it. It will sound and look great.

Nine foot ceilings are awesome. The surround sound will be very expansive.

People are probably thinking that i'm like an Axiom employee or something. The initial discomfort I had with Axiom was a great read, I had issues, nonetheless, self inflected perhaps, I Don't Know. But i've learned so much with the help of these threads! I'm very grateful... in fact the less I post is only because i'm finally feeling that audio nirvana i've been chasing these last few months.

I've received quite a few pm's asking for advice and such, which I appreciate. I will always provide a very honest opinion, usually Axiom favorable, even though I have no stock in the game. I've purchased so many speakers now (to compare against Axiom) my wife says is no reason other than to spend money!

Folks, I'm Michael Dolan and Axiom Audio has provided me and my loved ones with memories that will last a lifetime! Thank you Axiom! Love you guys and all that you do!

I'll run connections to both locations so I can switch them if they don't work on wall due to the offset/stairs.

Great idea.

So I talked the wife into letting me angle the ceiling the question is how much of a slope should I incorporate?

The more the better but I think 6 degrees is minimum. Trevor likely knows more.

All the tilted in ceiling models you can buy are either 15 or 30 degrees.

I think the only 30s I have found are the Golden Ears. Rest are 15.

Trevor, Canes wants to know how much tilt he ought to incorporate in the ceiling to minimize standing waves.

None. Standing waves are not defeated, just moved. Splayed walls are only good in rooms where ceilings taper too. Always shrinking with the direction of sound away from the source.

Build a rectangular room and treat the ceiling with decending polycylindrical diffusers. Room should shrink as it heads further back in height. Using suspended polys allows tweaking after the fact and backing the panels with roxul to create membrane absorption. Will upload pic later.

Doing this will eliminate ring and flutter.

Is it necessary to cover the whole room in this regard or can I take it just beyond the main listening area, theater space?

I think it’s dependent on the room. Once you have one, a room that is, then you can figure out if you have a problem and how to solve it.. Otherwise you might find yourself solving something non existent or even creating a problem. I’m definitely guilty of predicting all kinds of audio room problems, spending lots of what if time, coming up with solutions, and never having to implement them since ... it was not a problem in the first place.

The room is defined by boundaries and Canes is trying to establish the properties of those boundaries. You have a blank canvas, Canes. Maybe you ought to do some research or hire someone for a consult.

Both excellent ideas. I went the route of Rich. Tex has a great idea too if you can afford a consultant.

If you google around there are stories of people tearing rooms out after building. Better to have a concrete plan on paper and not to wing it.

Thar pic was a room 15W X13H X 19L. Wierd dimensions but it sounds great now. Local studio mixers test their tracks in there now. Nice room. It is a film grading studio.

Easiest way is start with a room and pop a balloon... then see how deep the rabbit hole goes. I plan for commercial and resi installs, but dont do acoustical jobs anymore. Way too many man hours for too little money.

Trever, I can take rockets blasting off, cars crashing, explosions but balloons....
I’m not sure I can take balloons!

Lol. Its worth it. You have an RT60 module in the acoustic design section of the app.

Very useful.

I haven’t tried RT60 yet ...
No balloons!

“ Are you feeling lucky.......punk?”

https://youtu.be/JPYt10zrclQ

Good quick basic video on absorption.

“ Go ahead, make my day. “
-Squint Eastwood.

Cool but a gross over-simplification. Boundaries are the biggest problem we face be it in society, organizations or engineering. The devil is in the details, and those who study them say that's where the fun is.

I keep a list...

Anthony Grimani (MSR acoustics)
Acoustics 101
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raAyF5ksbkk

Acoustics 102
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_DQWB0mAOo
Acoustics for immersive audio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFbqJkjfABQ

Paul Hales (Hales Audio) (a counterpoint in some ways to Anthony Grimani)
The science of the room
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l1IkpzeuQI

Ethan Winer (Real Traps)
Hearing is Believing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB8H0HFMylo
All about diffusion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb30CICG68c

Floyd Toole (Ret. Harman)
Sound Reproduction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM

Dennis Erskine (Erskine Design)
Home Theater Design and Acoustics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j23aG6pSYok

Laurie Fincham (THX)
Amplifier Technologies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If-UC2PAZYU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZw-PZFpcxw

Kevin Voeks (Revel)
Loudspeaker Design
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4lA0cO87OE

Dan Wiggins (Starke Sound)
Loudspeaker Design
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhBnS8UxV1k

Mathias Johansson (Dirac Research)
Dirac Room correction and more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zEKoJAKFbM

And one more for fun.

The nature of things
The science of sound
https://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/sonic-magic-the-wonder-and-science-of-sound

So it sounds like I should build out the room with all of the soundproofing and see how it sounds. I'll try the balloon trick first. Then possibly add diffusers and absorbers. Thanks for all of the information as always.

Kevin Voecks needs to listen to active LFRs. His opinion of stereo imaging and soundstage may change.

I wonder what happened. Did Rebulx get a permanent pedestal for his M100s? I still say M2s would have done the job given the less than ideal placement of the fronts.

I think his m100s are for sale. I saw them online. I was shocked! His posting said they didn’t fit the room and WAF.
It looked like a challenge to position them in that room too a bit.

That was my thought as well. Difficult to position that large of a speaker in his space.

Jeff

I'm alive and well, lol! Been on vacation enjoying the slow season of the boating business, even though covid has made this slow season busy, and thankful we are.

The M100's are still playing well. I enjoy them very much. Currently have them setup with the VP160, i've learned that three months is the maximum a lovely wife can take with something that just doesn't quite fit our little room. It's true I've listed them for sale however, recently I contacted Ian about trading them for another sub. That hearth I have is just so small. If business stays this good, we'll be moving in a year or two and it won't matter. The M80 on walls have grown on us. The Yamaha 860 I had just could not push them, they sound 10 times better with the DAC on the Yamaha 1080 and Emotiva. Have a Yamaha 5200 on order with two mono blocks to add to the existing Emotiva to swap to a pre/pro system. That should be fun.

Mojo was 100% correct when he told me the M2's would work best for my room, those guys just rock out. I have a pair in the garage and kitchen now! They are the best, on walls and bookshelves, the M2's are seamless and disappear into the room. I don't regret ignoring his advice because it's been a fun voyage, I've learned so much, it just cost a little too much lol. I guess you could say we traveled first class! Hopefully someone can save some money, just go with a good sub and M2, unless you have a huge room.

Rebulx, you have discovered that bigger is not necessarily always better (except when it comes to boats of course).

It was good to hear Andrew talk about that on YouTube.

Yeah, boats...just boats...lol....anyways... Andrews video's have been very helpful. You have to appreciate the no nonsense point of view he has, as dry as it may be, his very straight forward knowledge being downloaded onto your brain is very beneficial, probably would of saved me thousands if I watched them months ago. Oh well.

You know damned well you'd want to know for yourself and not just take somebody's word. So consider it money well spent.

BTW, the M5s may need about 30 hours of medium volume to break in. I say "may" because out of the three bookshelf pairs and 1 OW I've heard, one bookshelf and the OW needed breaking in. Two of the bookshelves were already ripe. I have no freakin' idea why. I think someone from Axiom may have thrown a party with them before they shipped.

I'm a big believer in speaker break in now. I'm sure some improvements are just in my head, but man it does seem to make a difference to the sound quality. Appreciate your comments.

Rebulx, I was a speaker "break-in" and cable differences agnostic. It's dead obvious to me speakers undergo mechanical and electrical changes during operation. And cables all have different characteristics. I remained agnostic because I didn't have enough data (experience) to know if the differences were audible.

As I started getting the v4 in, I started listening in a very critical way. The first v4 speaker I got was the M5. I could tell right away how special it was relative to my M80v2 in terms of soundstage and imaging but because I made a point to listen closely, I could hear the midrange and bass not blending. Also the bass was too loose. It was almost as if there was a phase off-set. I wrote to Ian and Andrew telling them the mid-range of these was off. I let them play while I was gone one weekend. When I came back, they were a different speaker! It was as if the midrange aligned. Every band was fused and they sounded awesome. I grew suspicious because I thought something in the environment may be the reason. I already knew temperature changes affected my v2 highs but I didn't know why (I found out later from Ian it may be the tweeter ferrofluid viscosity which changes with temperature). Anyway, further listening revealed no changes other than the aforementioned temperature difference.

I've listened closely to all the Axioms and damned well know there is break-in even though I don't know what exactly, from a component perspective, is breaking in. I suspect the midwoofer and woofer and/or the crossover between the two but I can't be sure about the midwoofer because I didn't hear a difference with the M2s. I also know something went on with two pairs of M5s to cause them to need no break-in.

As for cables, I know from experience and indisputable engineering data, cables make a difference to electrical equipment in ways that many electronics designers simply don't understand. And even when they introduce components to mitigate those effects, the new components introduce unintended parasitic behavior. And now I know, when it comes to speakers, cable differences are audible even if all the cables have vanishingly low resistance. See thread on that.

This is a great question for Andrew although he may not know unless he has actually studied, though testing and theory, what is going on. This kind of work of course takes time and money and is really science and not engineering.

Yeah, I can't wrapped my head around speaker break in but I can say these M80 on walls are really amazing now. The first few moments I heard them I was disappointed, to say the least. But I didn't know what I was doing, and still don't lol...But I do know that several hours of playing broke these guys in and they are exceptional. Having a receiver with a good DAC and proper amp makes a big diff too.

My disapproval with axioms V4 tweeters was directly related to the Yamaha RX-A860. It was a little better with the RX-A1080, but my EQ on the new 5200 processor has the high end flat, no adjustments. You can't hear the great potential of a speaker with an $800 receiver. It's a partnership.

I finally ran audyssey. It wanted to run the 100s and center full range. Sounds good for movies but there is a noticeable difference playing music. I just switch between manual and audyssey now depending on what I'm listening to. Of course I am also playing everything without drywall up so I'm positive everything will change once the room is built out again.

That is truly surprising about manual and Audyssey.

I was really surprised at the crossover points or lack thereof.

Full range works for movies but not music. Star Trek is on another level.

Rebulx, what happened with your smoked Emotiva?

Please share pics when it's done. Looking forward to seeing your new listening space!

https://postimg.cc/Kk618gvQ

The room gutted.

https://postimg.cc/GH2S5xpm

I swapped over to a different entertainment stand so I could elevate the tv and slide the 180 to the top shelf and get rid of the coffee table. We will start reforming the studs along that wall soon I hope and then I'll start running all of the wires in the ceilings and walls. Also, setting up for 4 outdoor speakers as well through the patio doors.

Nice space

Man, that is so cool to have such an ideal listening space. Hope to see some progress pics.

Rebulx, that is a progress pic. Canes had a fully completed basement. He popped a baloon and it sounded like a shot going off in the Grand Canyon. Trevor told him he had to start over. So Canes ripped his place apart. That's dedication!

Canes I saved your blueprint.

If you want I can mark it up and send you a draft. Im sure you are well on your way by now so maybe not much benefit. I would recommend recessed EP500s if you havent considered them already and turning your alcove into a hidden media/gear rack.

Very nice potential.

yes, of course Mojo, my mistake... looking really good nonetheless! Should make for a fantastic room, looking forward to seeing more pics as you make more progress. ;-)

No problem, Rebulx. I'll keep you in line. Lol!

We have a few different areas we are discussing setting up a media rack. The front right alcove isn't quite deep enough once we put the studs back in but I could do flush mount/recessed area into the alcove. We also have a larger alcove that you cant see on the other side of the steps that I could build out a section and make it a media area.

Trevor, where are you thinking recessed 500s in that room. I was already planning on adding a second 600 up front to have one paired with each 100?

In walls in blue. Regs in red. Firing towards eachother.

Will load that area better without trying to load the length axis (not gonna happen).

You really should be considering a PJ. Your ideal room setup and seating distances dont suit a TV screen size.

Might be tricky doing an in wall sub at the mechanical room due to the furnace, water heater, and softener all being right there. It would be feasible if we built the wall out slightly.

Also, I ran audyssey again using only three locations and it switched from full range to 40hz crossover points. The weird thing this time is it located my sub at a distance of 3.5 feet when it is roughly 20 ft from the mlp. I had it set to 50%. I will continue running audyssey to see if it makes any improvements over the prior two presets.

My wife would love a projector screen I just haven't researched them enough to know what to look for.

QS10s ordered. Next up ADA-1500 5 channel.

Nice!

Are the actives priced per pair or per speaker?

Also, it looks to me the only way to run omni-directional speakers is by having external amplifiers. There does not seem to me a way to wire the DSP's to a simple AVR amplifier. Is that correct?

Canes, that is correct. The price is per pair and with dual DSPs for the actives.

Look at you go, Canes!

Scratch the last question it says it on the product page. Needs 4 channels of amplification.

what does that mean exactly?

Rebulx, that doesn't apply to you. You will need 10 channels of amplification for the active omnis for your new place. Simply put, that means you will need two ADA-1500-5 - one for each channel. You will connect your receiver's right pre-out to the eight DSP and then the right ADA and the left pre-out to the left DSP and then the left ADA. Each ADA will have five speaker cables going to each speaker: woofers, front mids, front tweets, rear mids, rear tweets - that's 5...see?

Canes's question was for passive omnis. Those aren't for you. They're not for Canes either. If he buys them, he'll eventually trade them in for actives.

Yeah. I have every intent to add the actives within the next few years. I told my dad I would sell him the 100s when I upgrade. They just moved back to town yesterday so he will get to hear the massive difference between my speakers and his. He will really be amazed once I get the qs10s installed. I'm planning on adding an ADA-1500-5 to my system so when I convert to actives I will only need to pick up one additional amp to run them. Probably end up adding an ADA-1500-3 to the system for the center and surrounds.

With the qs10 placement: would it be better to mount on the wall or on the ceiling? I bought a set of the ceiling mounts but I am uncertain if they would be okay on those with my 9' ceilings or would it be better to try to wall mount and lower the a little farther from the ceiling? RIght now I obviously don't have any refraction from the ceiling because it's bare with insulation but once the ceiling is back up I'm wondering if increasing the distance from the top driver to the ceiling would be more beneficial.

If you mount them via ceiling mounts, you will lose bass response. I'd mount them on the wall with their tops 2 feet from the ceiling...3 feet max. You want to make sure no one will hit their heads on them.

Your dad may not want to wait for your M100s. He may end up with actives before you.

He probably would if he were allowed to spend that much on speakers. I think my mom would commit homicide if he went that route. For the space he will have set up I think the 100s would be incredible. I've told him he needs to update his QS8s simply because the v4 speakers are a major upgrade even if he stayed with the v4 QS8s.

I will see how well I can position the 10s on the wall. 2 feet down might be feasible. 3 feet only if I have them set back 15-20 degrees behind MLP but I don't want to get them too close to the walls that kick back into the room.

And as always, I appreciate your input, Mojo.

Canes, it's real tough to predict how they will sound 15-20 degrees behind vs face on or forward of MLP. My experience says ears-brains are not as sensitive to sounds from behind. I'm not so sure I trust my experience in this regard with sides though because there are a few factors at least. I know position experimentation with on-walls isn't fun but it may provide you with future comfort. You strike me as the type who will always wonder if it could be better.

I might be able to experiment with positioning before I decide on a final placement. One wall will prevent me from going to far in front of MLP and the other side prevents me from going too far back. I think I have a set of wall mounts that'll allow me to move them to a few different positions. If not a can rig up a brace with a 2x4 to mount the ceiling mounts to and adjust the positioning that way. I'll make sure the top firing speaker is not impeded by the brace as to affect the sound.

Good plan.

At the current position I can mount the surround at 0-5 degrees. Options are actually pretty limited without changing the distance of the MLP. Moving closer would allow me to have them slightly forward of the MLP.

What is your MLP and how wide are the M100s?

7” is the most clearance I can get between the top of the surrounds and the ceiling. Right now my MLP is 20 ft and the 100s are 14 ft apart. I can move the MLP forward to where it would be at 14 ft and the surrounds would be at 0 degree or slightly forward but again I would only have 7” from top driver to ceiling.

If I go to 12-13 feet to MLP I can build a jut out to accommodate the surrounds and I could lower them to 2ft from ceiling. They would be about 10 degrees forward at that location

Wait...you reported the M100s were disappearing and instruments were all around you as if you were sitting on the stage with them. Is that with the 20 ft MLP and 14 feet width?

If I leave MLP as is and do the kick out they would be at about 30 degrees from MLP and roughly 8 ft in front of MLP

No that was at 14 foot width and 17 foot mlp

100s are 4ft off wall to the tweeters.

8 feet is too far front.

If you liked the envelopment and presentation at 14w and 17mlp, stick with that.

Mine are 8" from the ceiling and 10 deg in front and they sound great.

12-13 feet MLP might be too close for the 14w. Try it. I bet you'll find the M100s get in the way of themselves and create an acoustic shadow at the left and right extremes of the soundstage.

Looks like I’ll move MLP back to 17 and try the surrounds at 7” spacing. That’ll put them at roughly 5-10 degrees forward.

The wonderful thing about the 7" spacing is that you won't have the woofer or the tweeter interfering acoustically with the top mid-woofer.

QS10s shipped fast. Should have them tomorrow or Monday. I made a little offset on the joists that'll allow me to use the ceiling mounts and keep the top mid away from the ceiling. This offset will also give me a lot more mounting options and I can still get the speakers very close to the wall. I will still try them in the other location flush on the wall to see what sounds better. Too bad tax season is going to keep me from really having a lot of time to experiment.

Nice. Stick with it.

Canes, hoping to see pics... lots of pics please...lol

Don’t remind me ... I’ve been doing all I can to delay getting into that pile of paper work. Every year I swear I’m going keep on top of it and so far ... it hasn’t happened

BTW Your gonna love the QS10s.

Reblux, I will be sure to take progress pics and even some as I am tinkering with no walls and let you guys know how the different set ups sound. I'm hoping I can squeeze a weekend or two off during tax season to frame up the foundation walls so we can start running wires and putting insulation in place.

Looks like it's going to be Monday on the 10s. They are still showing they are in Memphis. I'm looking forward to having surround sound again and just hearing how much better these will sound vs my dad's old qs8 v2s.

glad i'm not the only one! The forms are pilling up!

Canes, I'm looking forward to hearing your impressions on these guys and pics on placement or of how you audition them. The room and placement makes all the diff on sound quality. I've not heard the QS10's but really want too. Ian, you have my address... lol

Most of my clients feel the same way and put off working on their books until later in the year. Personally the sooner we get them the more time and less stress it is for us trying to get the complete and out the door.

Tracking shows one of them is in town ready for delivery and the other is still showing in Memphis. I really hope that isn't the case and they just forgot to scan one for tracking update.

I will start running some temporary speaker wire for them tomorrow at some point so all I'll have to do is get the mounted up in the first location. Also, going to start getting subwoofer cables ran throughout the room. I'd like to get about 6 locations wired up for subs, planning on eventually getting 4 into the room based off of Trevor's recommendation. I think I'll start with two front firing and two side firing 600s but I'll have it wired for 4 side firing so I can move things around. I really have to think about how many speakers I want in the room. If Mojo's review of the 10s is accurate I doubt I'll go the way of Atmos and possibly only go to 7.2 or maybe 5.2 will be sufficient. I want to get the amp hooked up first because that'll really allow me to push these speakers to their full potential.

Canes, I'm sorry if I led you astray. I've always said I'm satisfied enough with the overhead effects my QS10 sides give me. That is not to say however that Atmos doesn't sound better. Atmos steers different sounds to overhead speakers relative to sides. That results in greater spatial resolution and realism.

I'd say the side QS10s give me Neural:X in the overhead dimension without needing a Neural:X-capable receiver or overhead speakers. With their forward-of-MLP position, I hear quiet overhead effects ahead of me. When the effects get louder, I can hear them ahead, directly above, and behind me. For example, when a plane is taking off directly in front, I can hear it panning above me from the front, directly above and then behind.

The side QS10s are allowing me to extend the life of my 8 year-old Onk.

My AVR runs Neural:X but I really haven't experimented in great detail the different surround settings. Mostly due to only briefly having the old QS8s hooked up. I feel like if I leave the 10s slightly forward I will have a similar result and if I need more envelopment I can always add the rears but they would be freely hanging with no rear wall.

I’m running 5.1 in the family room with QS10s. I had a 7.1.2 ATMOS setup in the past family rooms but this time, since we were putting a HT downstairs, 5.1 won on aesthetics. Even though it’s a minimal setup most visitors think this is the HT ... it looks and sounds great.

Downstairs the HT is a work in progress ... a ATMOS, DTS-X, Aura-3d setup (7.4.6 + 2 to start, but wiring for 12bed positions and 19 height/top positions as an attempt of future proofing.). These 3d formats add an extra dimension (just had to say that) to your listening enjoyment and this is a fantastic time to start as the content seems to be catching up with all the hype.

That said IMO it’s better to allocate your money over less channels if you have to compromise too much on speakers and equipment to get more (channels that is). But, I’d at least wire for it.

Canes, I guess what I’m trying to say is I’m a bit confused on why your not going the 3d object placement sound route. You seem to be going for everything else. My only assumption is that per channel things get really expensive if you start down the 1000 speaker path of bottomless formats (and planning wise one has to guess at what the future holds). Also as I pointed out in the first paragraph the legacy formats get you 95% what you need at the moment. I’m just thinking that at some point 3d sound steering will play an important part in film/content.

I may go ahead and wire for everything but the main reason is mostly aesthetics for the room. What I think looks good for a HT my wife, unfortunately, doesn't get the same appeal. I also think it has to with how I listen and feel like movies and music should sound vs. someone who does not really do any kind of critical listening at all. Fortunately, my AVR is set up for the 3d surround modes, Atmos and Aura, so as long as I wire for it I will always have more options down the road. My hope is that as my wife starts watching and enjoying the HT she will be open for expanding the sound parameters. I already know as we are able to start entertaining again that my guests are going to love the setup.

Originally, the family room and the HT were one an the same. Unfortunately designing it became an impossible task between functionality and aesthetics. My wife and I didn’t agree. The architect was great at architecture for interior/exterior design but had little under standing of home theater design. When we split the two we agreed that the family room would prioritize aesthetics and that the HT would prioritize the movie/critical listening experience. The wife gave me complete control of the later ... .

I'm hoping that'll become the case in my situation. I think she would love the HT if she would let me set it up that way but it may take me doing it anyway and asking for forgiveness after. At least if it's in there she would be able to hear it.

The QS10s arrived yesterday. Hoping I'll have them hooked up by this weekend so I can start breaking them in.

Awesome Canes! Hope to hear your feedback! I just ordered a pair myself, rosewood high gloss!

Rebulx, those will look great above your M2s, which are riding on the M3s, straddling the M80s, beside the M100s.

Rebulx, check this out. Sweet tweeter too!

oh wow! what is that wood finish? That tweeter looks amazing, right up my alley lol.

Mojo you forgot to mention the M5 on walls and M50's let alone the EP600, and what about the old EP350 & QS8's? Pretty soon my signature will be similar to yours! lol

Geez...yeah. I forgot about those. You'll be opening up your own audio store soon.

That is one of my burled walnut Audiobytes. Their 2" mid-woofers definitely need a sub.

QS10s are on the walls but I didn't have enough time this morning to test drive them. I'll try to run audyssey again and let it adjust some of the parameters. Didn't think they were working at first and then realized the blu ray player was on the wrong audio setting.

They will need to break in. Not sure how long.

I may hook them up as front speakers to speed up break in process.

Good idea. That's also a good way to test them. See how you like them as fronts.

I was thinking of hooking up some m2 on walls as zone 2 speakers at the back of the room to play music while playing pool without turning on the full system. I feel like that would be better than using another set of QS10s but I guess I can listen as fronts and see how they sound.

M2s are less expensive and smaller profile as you know. Variety is good. That application isn't very critical.

QS10s sound like Bose 301s except with hi-fi bass, mid-range and treble. They are also more dynamic.

I've learned that all on wall speakers with the smaller cabinet volume need break in. Not a few minutes like most speakers, but much longer. They also need a good bit of EQ depending on the room and wall. When setup correctly they are quite amazing. I can't wait to hear the QS10s.

Okay. That’s simply amazing. I have the 10s running as fronts and the sound stage sounds like I still have the center and 100s playing. These aren’t even broken in yet. Quite an impressive speaker. I do feel like if I shift them slightly behind my MLP I’ll get a little more depth and directional sound from movies.

Set everything back to normal and I am definitely going to move the 10s back to 0º from MLP. I am also going to take them off the ceiling mounts and drop them a few inches lower to increase the distance from the top driver to the ceiling. This should improve the spatial sound and create more of the surround effect. It should also broaden the sound in the room overall.

We've been enjoying one of my all-time favourite characters, Ash Campbell, lay waste to deadites using his boomstick and chainsaw. I think anyone could mistake my 4-channel for full Atmos.

The QS10 is what the QS series ought to always have been.

That's funny. Yup, I remember auditioning a pair of 301s many years ago. They were good looking, but the sound quality was a huge disappointment.

Ended up with a pair of Infinity Composition Overture IIIs. Sounded pretty darn good. Long gone.

Finally moved the 10s back to 0º to MLP. I'll get to run audyssey this evening and see how everything sounds now. I imagine it'll be a massive improvement.

I love the passion!

The never ending pursuit of audio Nirvana.

We have a saying in my homeland: the more you pick at it, the more it stinks. The Americanized version is Ignorance is Bliss.

It's quite a fun hobby!

The good news is the surround is amazing. The bad news is I lost a little of the phantom center playing stereo. I'm going to shift the MLP forward a foot and readjust the towers back to 3.5' off wall and 15' apart. This will have me at 16' to MLP. If I play music in surround mode it sounds incredible but I liked having stereo sound just as amazing. Of course when I get the walls back up the reflection is all going to change again. If nothing else it all gives me an excuse to sit around for hours playing movies and music.

Canes, I wouldn't be so quick to make a change yet. If music sounds so amazing in surround, why not just live with it for a while and see how you like it?

I'm thinking of just adjusting the toe-in. The more I think about it when I shifted the MLP back the towers are pointing directly at me. I'll see what happens if I reduce the toe in first. I can listen in surround but trying to adjust to where each sound mode is as optimized as possible.

Changing the toe in fixed the issue. Much better spatial sound.

I've found a bit of toe-in works wonders with most Axioms. The M5, M2 and M3 bookshelves didn't need it in my set-ups when the tweeters were below ear level. The on-walls don't need it either.

I'm glad you like the QS10 better than QS8 and I wasn't just hallucinating the improvement.

Have them set at large crossed over at 80. Andy’s set set them same way only full range. Massive improvement for movies. Explosions really come alive.

Have you tried setting them to 40?

Not yet. I've had them at 80 pretty much since the onset and had the 100s set at small until Audyssey suggested large for those and the 180.

My 100's do best set at large. I know most say cross over at 80 but going back and forth I really think the 100's are why there is even a large setting to begin with.

My 100s do best at my thief of a friend's place.

I need walls. Everything sounds great but I really have to crank movies up to really enjoy it. Music is dialed in for stereo and surround. I didn't have to change anything but the toe in. Used my line laser to see exactly where the sound was passing the MLP. Reduced toe in to point beyond the outside edges of the couch and I have great sound no matter where I'm sitting now. Running the speakers at 40hz right now and so far I'm really enjoying them.

Insulation and drywall on your concrete won't make it any louder. Is your MLP 16 feet? What volume is the Denon at when you crank it? How many dB did the Denon set the M100s to during calibration?

My LFR's are set to LARGE and I also send the base to the subs ...

LCR speakers are fine and the the one surround is mounted to header but the left surround is hanging on a stud on a blank wall so it doesn't have anything behind it to help with reflection. MLP is 16 feet. I believe the DB correction is 3.5 or 4 on the fronts the left surround is +8.5 and the right surround is +3. Denon is at -5.0 on movies. Music is between -15 to -10.

If the dB correction is 4 on the fronts, at -5 on movies your fronts are at -1. That is at the RMS limit of your Denon. Peaks may actually be getting compressed by the Denon's dynamic compression circuits.

-15 to -10 on music is more like -11 to -6 given the 4 dB correction on the front. Depending on the music you listen to, it may also be getting dynamically compressed by the Denon.

I'm not surprised by the way given your listening distance.

As for the surrounds, note how the one hanging by the stud is offset by much more compared to the other. I wonder if those channels are also getting dynamically compressed during movies.

Would adding the ada1500 fix any possible compression with the higher power output?

Front left is +3 right is 2.5 center 5.5
Left surround 8.5 right surround 4

Oh yeah! You bet it would. You'd never run out of power. The dynamics would be limited by your M100s but practically, you'd never run into that limitation.

I switched the avr back to 5.1 bi amp off of 7.1/zone 2 and that seems to have cleaned up the sound quite a bit.

Just stumbled on this pic from a few months ago, two of my favorite loves in life, the M80 on walls and my wife. Maybe i'm a dick for showing off but man they both sound and look so great, I had to share. ;-)

Rockin'! I drew her last night.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/u...re-what-have-you-drawn-lately#Post441520

love your drawings, although we both agree...perhaps more me than her on that last one.

I found that pic of her tonight. It was from last December, funny how you take pics and never really go back and look at them... I have to say i'm punting outside my field of coverage now!

You have to look at what the drawing depicts. Confident, strong and keeps a stiff upper lip.

Trevor,

I just realized the blueprint you had of my area didn't have the stair jut out. When they did our floor joists they didn't do the drop down joists so our ceilings became higher, which I love, but it caused the steps to be out. Would you change the sub layout you sent me taking that stair area in account? See attached photo.

https://postimg.cc/qgbGXH3s

Send me email via pm and I will send plan.

Moved the M80s to a flat screen mount and it's looking good so far. One down. Movies, they swing into the living room. Music they swing into the kitchen. I ordered a few other brackets and this one is the best. Slides under the terminals which takes most of the load. I slipped some tape under the terminals just to be safe.

Here is a link to the bracket.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CXQRMLQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That's something you don't see everyday. I hope you didn't drill through the crossover.

Nice fix! Looks like a pretty flexible solution.

Second unit installed... Will add some rigging tube for the wires and repaint the walls. All said and done, i'm pretty happy!

The only thing missing now is a 180OW facing the kitchen.

That is a ton of speaker for that area but really nice installation.
The space looks great!

How is the sound working out?

yeah your totally right Chess, it's way overkill. It's sounds amazing though! the m80 on wall with the EP600 are a perfect combo. When cooking I just swing the M80s into the kitchen and crank it up! When watching a movie I swing them into the living room. The Yamaha receiver has two different audio setting packages, so it's easy to go back and forth.

I started this audio endeavor about a year ago, and it's been such a fun venture, with many experiments to finally reach my audio nirvana in my unique listening space. I really hope others have benefited from these posts.

And some people i know don't understand why or just how high i like to crank the music when i'm in the kitchen...and the living room is 18 feet away!
Big speaker and big power required!

Well said Chess!

Finally hooked up the ADA1500-5. I didn’t have time to re-run audyssey but I can tell it’s needed. The rears really came to life with the extra power but I didn’t notice as much with the front stage. I think it’s due to the speakers being set to small from the last audyssey calibration. The main thing I noticed was it’s a lot cleaner sounding and I enjoyed listening at lower volumes. I may end up trying some different banana plugs too. The ones I have are really snug in my avr but somewhat loose in the 1500. The posts seem to be shorter on the 1500 than the avr.

Here's what you do now. Get yourself a pitcher of corn kernels. Set your M100s to full range, stereo. Put on some death metal. Turn your Denon up to +10. Turn on the 1500. Pour the kernels into an M100 sphincter. Watch popcorn come spraying out from all the sphincters. Suck in that smell of melting coil adhesive and cooked windings.

I could be wrong but I think the objective would be not to melt the voice coils.

Shooting sparks and billowing smoke add to the "you're there in the concert" experience. It's good fun. You gotta let loose once in a while.

I think you must go to different concerts than I do.

Movies are on another level.

The m5s haven’t sounded that good since I ran them as fronts.

Yeah. The M5s need a ton of power. I do think they image better than M100s but don't sound as real instruments and voices as much as the M100s.

I’m not use to hearing surround sounds at low volumes. So many sounds in the movies I didn’t hear before are now audible. I’ll have some time this weekend to re-run audyssey and make a few manual adjustments. Music doesn’t get fatiguing at higher volume. Everything is extremely clean sounding. The muddy sounds at -10 are gone and music is satisfying at -20 even across the room. I lost some of the soundstage and imaging but I think that’s due to the avr being uncalibrated. I am assuming the level adjustments will come down due to the extra power.

Once the room is complete I’ll pull the trigger on the actives. Working on an area right now to house the audio rack and changing a few things to accommodate 4 subs. We are moving the door off the front wall too.

It makes sense that music is not fatiguing at higher volumes. The only way that music can be more satisfying at -20 though is if your Denon's amp gain is lower than the ADA's. In my case, the Onk and ADA gains are equal. I heard no difference at lower volumes even in 5.1. If you're running 9.1 then maybe your Denon is finding it difficult to cope with peaks even at lower levels. Or maybe your Denon's power supply is crap compared to my Onk.

There should be no difference in soundstage and imaging in stereo at lower volumes.

My comparisons have been mostly at -10 because that was my normal listening level at the MLP using the AVR. I'll hopefully have some time this weekend to do a little more critical listening but on the initial listening session it felt like it was different.

After calibration the soundstage is much more pronounced. Especially the phantom center. Really starting to enjoy the speakers even more. I'm tinkering with toe-in with the 100s to see if I can get them dialed in any more.

Did you note the calibration levels of the speakers before and after the addition of the ADA?

It'll be interesting to see if they will continue to disappear as you reported before.

They "appeared" which is why I'm going to tinker with the toe-in and maybe even the positioning of the speakers. I'm going to try to move the 100s closer to the side walls and see how it affects the sound.

When those damned monoliths disappeared, you should have left them alone. Now you're gonna pull your hair out trying to replicate what you had. I did the same thing. I had M5s, 12 feet apart which disappeared at 14 feet MLP with no toe-in and no fuss. But did I leave well enough alone? Noooooooooo! I had to do better. Enter the M100s which no doubt were more dynamic, realistic-sounding, blah, blah, blah but got in the way of themselves. I hope you can fix it. If not, there's always active LFRs.

The levels dropped 3db on the fronts and center and 4db on the surrounds.

This should help you understand why the ADA made your system sound fuller pre-calibration at -20 compared to running off the Denon. The gain of the ADA is about 3dB greater than the gain of your Denon's amplifier. Stated another way, when you dialed -20 pre-calibration, you were really listening at -17.

Yeah that makes sense. I did get to move the speakers around some and I was able to get the sound not to sound so direct which makes me think I can still find a sweet spot and have them disappear again. Trying to move them around between 22º and 30º with varying distances from the front wall.

With regards to the m5s, right now they are about a foot behind the MLP firing straight across. Would it be worth it to wedge the back corner to have them firing more towards the MLP or would it make much difference?

The v4 mid-woofers and tweeters have very good off-axis response. You won't hear much difference for a movie surround application, and may actually end up reducing the bass response. The best soundstage and imaging performance I had with my M5s as fronts was with no toe-in.

Your M100s may never disappear again because you've become a critical listener.

BTW, if you really want to hear a disappearing act, throw a couple of M2 bookshelves in your cart next time you're shopping. Put them up against the M100 and see what you think.

Finally got them to disappear again. They moved closer to the outside walls and out further into the room from the front wall. I also had to reduce the toe-in but the sound is now so enveloping. I re-ran audyssey after each adjustment as well to compensate for the difference in distance. FCR are all within .1 feet of each other. The left and right are at 30º from MLP before the addition of the amp they were closer to 22º. I really had a chance to sit down and listen to a wide array of music and the sound was amazing. Pink Floyd "dogs" is still my go to song and has really taken on new life since I switched from the Paradigms and really dialed in the Axioms. Soundproofing the ceiling and building the enclosures for the in-ceiling speakers starts soon. I'm letting the insulation guy take care of the overhead stuff so I don't have to breathe in that stuff. In the meantime I'm getting speaker wire and electrical ran for multiple layouts and any additional speakers we may want to add down the road.

That's terrific! I am very happy for you. I for one wonder how adding the ADA changed the radiation pattern for the M100s. I'd have to think about why you had to move them closer to the side walls, further in to your room and at a wider angle. Perhaps moving them into the room suggests the bass response has increased which would certainly make sense at higher volumes.

It wasn't a huge difference coming out further into the room, about 8" from the previous spot, but they went about 3 ft closer to the side walls on each side. I would assume bass response but at the current positioning they are a lot more in line with the "golden triangle" although not exact.

This is all very interesting. Very, very interesting indeed! When I powered my M5s from the ADA-1000 and then the ADA-1500, I did not have to move them relative to when I powered them from my Onk. The soundstage and imaging was the same between ADA and Onk. The only difference was the SPL that could be coaxed out - particularly with the 1500. I should point out that I always had the back of the M5s 3 feet away from the front wall. They were also 5 feet from the sides.

The difference between the M5 and M100 is of course stark. The radiation pattern from the M100 must be absolutely huge and of a significantly different geometry than the M5 - particularly up to maybe 600Hz. The Denon likely hampered the radiation pattern on the low end of the range particularly at higher volumes. Add the 1500 and BOOM! - the pattern expanded.

I would be very interested in hearing from Axiom about this. I may have it all wrong but that is my theory. What a marketing story that would be for their ADAs if they could prove this through charts and graphs.

Incidentally, all other Axioms I have tried were positioned like the M5s. The only thing I had to change between M2/M3/M5/M50 and M80/M100/active LFR1100 was the toe-in. The smaller speakers were not toed in at all.

I'm sure it makes some difference too that right now I'm on a bare concrete slab and insulated walls with no drywall. Not sure the physics of it as the last physics class I took was 20 years ago but with one side being open, no dividing wall, the cubic space the sound is filling is essentially the entire basement right now, almost 20,000 cubic feet

Indeed. As you finish your space, you'll have to work at making them invisible again.

LFR 1100s ordered. Looking forward to doing some side by side comparisons.

M2 bookshelf speakers on order. Planning on setting them up as zone 2 speakers on the far end of the room.