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#382091 - 08/25/12 06:56 PM Amplifier hum
grantlyt1 Offline
regular

Registered: 08/25/12
Posts: 8
I have just recently purchased a crown XLS1500 amplifier to be used with my Onkyo 875 receiver to power my front M80s. I didn't realize that the amp could only work with a 120 volt power supply. I only have 240 volt where I live. I then decided to try a cheap step down transformer to step 240v down to 120v. Suprising that this crown XLS1500 amp only draws max 250 watts yet claims to put out over 500 watts/channel into 4 ohms. Anyway that is a separate story.
With everything connected up I am getting a low frequency hum from the fronts. When I disconnect the rca input to the crown the hum disappears. It is only present when the onkyo receiver is on and the pre-amp out is connected to the crown amp.
Is there any way I can eliminate this hum or reduce it.
Should I use the XLR inputs on the Crown. To do this I would need to get an RCA to XLR adaptor. Is it possible this hum is caused by the step down transformer? I doubt it since the hum is not always present. Any ideas? confused


Edited by grantlyt1 (08/25/12 06:57 PM)

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#382092 - 08/25/12 07:08 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 11198
Loc: Central NH
Is everything plugged into one outlet? It sounds like a ground hum which often pops up when interconnected devices are plugged into different outlets.

Try a cheater plug (no ground prong) to see if that makes the hum go away.
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::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#382095 - 08/25/12 07:23 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
grantlyt1 Offline
regular

Registered: 08/25/12
Posts: 8
Yes everything is plugged into the one outlet. I even disconnected all devices and left only the receiver and amplifier connected but still the same problem.
Is the use of this cheater plug dangerous?

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#382097 - 08/25/12 07:24 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13357
Loc: Iowa
Are all your outlets on the same circuit to the breaker? Might be a ground loop hum. If you have a sub, what happens if you unplug the interconnect?
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#382099 - 08/25/12 07:25 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 11198
Loc: Central NH
No, though it's better used as a diagnostic tool than a permanent solution.

Do you have a coax cable (TV, Cable) going into a device that's plugged into the receiver? If so, try disconnecting the coax cable.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#382101 - 08/25/12 07:35 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: SirQuack]
grantlyt1 Offline
regular

Registered: 08/25/12
Posts: 8
Yes the outlets are on the same circuit breaker. Disconnecting the pre-amp out to the sub has no effect on the hum.

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#382102 - 08/25/12 07:37 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1849
Originally Posted By: grantlyt1

Should I use the XLR inputs on the Crown. To do this I would need to get an RCA to XLR adaptor. Is it possible this hum is caused by the step down transformer? I doubt it since the hum is not always present. Any ideas? confused


To get the true benefit of XLR connectors you're receiver/processor would have to have XLR outs... XLR's are a 3 wire system, RCA is a 2 wire system... To get rid of the hum, you need a true 3 wire system.

I had the same problem, i think it's the wiring in my house.. I am using all XLR connectors. However, my processor has XLR outputs....

By using a step down transformer, are isolating that outlet.
My money is on a ground loop problem. My house also have a ground loop... So, i have to deal with multiple electrical issues.....

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#382103 - 08/25/12 07:39 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: MarkSJohnson]
grantlyt1 Offline
regular

Registered: 08/25/12
Posts: 8
I disconnected all inputs to the receiver but no difference however I just disconnected the hdmi out from the receiver and the hum is significantly reduced. Still annoying but much better. But I need to use this HDMI output.

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#382105 - 08/25/12 07:40 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1849
you may not have a good earth ground.... that is one other possibility.

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#382107 - 08/25/12 08:20 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17932
Loc: NoVA
Where do you live? I would wager that this has something to do with the step down transformer.

Guys, if he's got 240V, I doubt they even have cheater plugs...
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#382110 - 08/25/12 08:50 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: Ken.C]
grantlyt1 Offline
regular

Registered: 08/25/12
Posts: 8
I live in Australia. I have never seen these cheater plugs.

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#382112 - 08/25/12 08:58 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17932
Loc: NoVA
Yeah, I suspect they don't have them there. It's a legacy thing in the States from before we had grounded outlets--a lot of places still don't have them. Basically it disables the ground.
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I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#382114 - 08/25/12 09:31 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1395
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Unless you plan on using the amp in your shower just buck the ground off . Hell my new yamaha reciever came with no ground on the plug. It could also be a polarity problem , house wired incorrectly. Also change out the rca cables, i had a set i used from my kids car that were not that old and they were making my sub hum.
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#382117 - 08/25/12 09:47 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: Socketman]
grantlyt1 Offline
regular

Registered: 08/25/12
Posts: 8
I could easily take the ground pin off the 120v side of the plug. It already looks a bit loose. Is it really not that risky to power without the earth pin? I did already try another rca cable but same result. I could purchase a US cheater plug and use it on the 120 volt plug into the step down transformer.

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#382118 - 08/25/12 09:52 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1395
Loc: Whitehorse YT
i have no grounds on my kit. i just went through this bs over the past week. You can use it as a test then buy a ground loop isolator if your concerned. You could modify an extension cord also. here are some hum eliminators to look at .

https://www.google.ca/search?q=hum+elimi...120&bih=613


Edited by Socketman (08/25/12 09:54 PM)
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#382119 - 08/25/12 09:53 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17932
Loc: NoVA
It is significantly more hazardous with 240V than 120V, but if you're doing it on the 120V side, it shouldn't be THAT big a deal.
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#382120 - 08/25/12 09:55 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: Ken.C]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1395
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Originally Posted By: Ken.C
It is significantly more hazardous with 240V than 120V, but if you're doing it on the 120V side, it shouldn't be THAT big a deal.


just wear rubber boots when operating the stereo grin
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#382121 - 08/25/12 10:19 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10487
Grantly, welcome. If you mean that there was no hum problem previously with the 875 used for power, and if the connections(with the exception of the Crown connection)were the same, then there appears to be nothing new to create a ground loop. It's possible that there's a defect(e.g., rectifier, filter capacitors)in the power supply section of the Crown.

If it would be a ground loop, using a RCA/XLR adaptor wouldn't be helpful. As Alex pointed out, the balanced circuitry is entirely different, and doesn't simply involve the difference between a RCA plug and XLR connector. The sending unit(875)would have to have a balanced output with two voltages(of opposite polarity)rather than one, which the 875 doesn't have. The wiring itself is just one element and is meaningless without both balanced output circuitry and balanced input circuitry.

Incidentally, although you say that the Crown draws 250 watts "max", that's highly unlikely. Unless a power consumption number is specifically termed "full power" or similar language, the number given is an average one rather than max. Typically, 1/8th of full power is used for the average. For example, 1/8th of 500 is a bit over 60 watts, and at 1/8th power class AB amplifiers are on the order of 20-25% efficient(about 50% at full power). 60 watts output would therefore need about 250 watts of consumption. There's no inconsistency when manufacturers show a consumption number lower than the maximum output number.
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#382123 - 08/25/12 11:03 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: JohnK]
grantlyt1 Offline
regular

Registered: 08/25/12
Posts: 8
Problem solved! I just bought a ground loop isolator and the hum is entirely gone. Thanks everyone for your help. grin

Johnk- I am only using a stepdown transformer rated for 500 watts. Does this mean I may blow an fuse on it if I run the amp close to its upper limits?

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#382124 - 08/25/12 11:12 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1849
Originally Posted By: Ken.C
I would wager that this has something to do with the step down transformer.


Ken, this is highly likely...Due to the transformer in the the mix this, in of it self could also be the source of the ground loop as this is a new device, and does not address the grounding of that circuit...

How did you wire the ground? If you could post a schematic of how you wired the outlet with the transformer that would help. At this point everyone is hypothesizing as to what you did...


lol... this is what i was just writing as you posted the solution..... oh well!!


With this being said, i would bet the source of your ground loop is the wiring of the outlet off of the transformer.. Again, if you can post a schematic we could help eliminate the ground loop.....


Edited by dakkon (08/25/12 11:16 PM)

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#382126 - 08/25/12 11:19 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10487
The transformer could be burned out by lengthy operation at that power. What you would "blow" would more likely be your hearing in that case. The M80s are slightly above average in sensitivity and use about 1 watt for a comfortably loud average level. Brief peaks use a lot more, but are unlikely to need more than about 100 watts, which your 875 can easily handle.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#382129 - 08/25/12 11:49 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1395
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Which ground loop isolator did you get.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#382130 - 08/26/12 12:03 AM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: Socketman]
grantlyt1 Offline
regular

Registered: 08/25/12
Posts: 8

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#382142 - 08/26/12 02:38 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13357
Loc: Iowa
try unplugging the sub from the wall outlet.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#409051 - 12/24/14 09:25 AM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: SirQuack]
Strider53 Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/11/12
Posts: 112
Loc: Detroit
I realize this is a well beaten subject but I have a hum present in my Theatre and have not been able to eliminate it.
If I unplug the Sub from the outlet the hum is gone. Plugging the sub into a different circuit/outlet did not remove the hum. Removing the grounding screw from the Amplifier plate on the back of the sub did not help, there is an Axiom audio ground isolator in line for the cable box.
I do not use XLRs for connections.
Am out of ideas!
Any thoughts on how to proceed?

thanks, Jeff
ps- Happy Holidays

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#409053 - 12/24/14 10:28 AM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
Serenity_Now Offline
aficionado

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 825
Loc: PEI, Canada
Assuming your sub cable is decent and not vaccum abused:

Any recent changes in back of your reciever? Cables shorting perhaps? HDMI and other connections ok? Definitely seems like a stray signal or filtering issue somewhere in the chain.

I had a similar issue develop over time using an extended sub cable joined with an rca butt connector. Got grumpy with time.

I would do a hard shutdown (unplug your receiver) and reterminate if issue persists. Failing that, call axiom.

Best of luck. smile

Edit: can you run a cable direclty from your bluray/dvd/cdplayer to the sub to rule out a huge chunk of the signal chain. Even an ipod on batteries connected directly would be a good elimination test. Make you turn the sub volume off first and slowly turn up if you connect a device with no variable output. Really loud! laugh been there!


Edited by Serenity_Now (12/24/14 10:36 AM)

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#409058 - 12/24/14 12:18 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1345
My hum was caused by my 'Cable TV' System - very, very common.

For trouble shooting, try disconnecting it at the 'F Connector' where it first joins your system.

My previous Velodyne Subs hummed until I made a jumper cable to kill it. With my EP800s, unscrewing the ground screw worked - much easier...

TAM

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#409063 - 12/24/14 12:43 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
oakvillematt Online   sad
devotee

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 496
Loc: Oakville, Canada
I had a hum between my Axiom LFR1100 DSP and my Anthem MCA5 amp. Even with nothing else hooked up (no source) it gave a hum. Fixed it by moving to XLR cables.

it is in the way that the ground is isolated, and Axiom did it a different way than the Anthem people and thus caused the hum. You might find it's the same with your new receiver.
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I'm normal, it's the rest of the world that is crazy.

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#409071 - 12/24/14 02:45 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: oakvillematt]
Strider53 Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/11/12
Posts: 112
Loc: Detroit
So I disconnected the coax cable from the Comcast cable box, no change, unplugged the cable box, no change in the hum.
WT_!
Found a 3 prong to 2 prong electrical adapter in my tool box, put it in place and no hum, none what so ever, nada, zilch, nicht!
Lucky me, back to COD or the Nut Cracker Suite.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Jeff

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#409073 - 12/24/14 03:49 PM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: grantlyt1]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1345
Great!

It is really good for one's mental health when hum finally disappears...

TAM

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#409147 - 12/29/14 08:41 AM Re: Amplifier hum [Re: Strider53]
mapatton Offline
local

Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Orlando, FL
Originally Posted By: Strider53
So I disconnected the coax cable from the Comcast cable box, no change, unplugged the cable box, no change in the hum.
WT_!
Found a 3 prong to 2 prong electrical adapter in my tool box, put it in place and no hum, none what so ever, nada, zilch, nicht!
Lucky me, back to COD or the Nut Cracker Suite.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Jeff


That implies there is a wiring irregularity. I would have that checked.
_________________________
Mark
Pio 94,SB3,BD30,A35,Pio 48AV.Pronto 7000 controlling all. Getting ready for 22s, 150 & QS8s.

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