Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo M80's vs Omen Def MK1-B's...

Haven't posted in awhile...I thought some of you may be interested in the above comparison. I received the Omen Defs last Friday, specs are below:

It was quite interesting to say the least as both speakers are quite different. I'll try to post a review later tonight with some pics, but I was quite surprised at my results, all in the "ears" of the beholder of course...

Zu nanotech drivers are now standard equipment (Zu103ND/G1-16) these are the same units developed for our Dominance and as used on Definition Mk.IV and Mk.III. They feature our high-output motor assembly, 16 ohm magnetically neutral-hung voice coils and paper-cored nanotech cones. No other changes are done. Original Omen Def loudspeakers can be field upgraded. Markings for Omen Def Mk.I-B are: REVISION-B nameplate and the engraved model identification on the drivers’ center cone.

High efficiency, high output, moderate impedance, direct radiating, floor-standing loudspeaker. Omen Def Mk.I-B features Zu’s full-range driver (Zu103ND/G1-16), in the Zu Definition architecture, ZuGriewe driver/box/room acoustic loading technology, no crossover or filters on full-range drivers, complimented by a dynamic tweeter featuring phenolic-composite dome and machined 6061-T651 billet lens, providing the acoustic sparkle and resolution from 10kHz and up.

Mk.I-B June 2012, shipping August 2012 (Mk.I-A November 2010)
47x12x12[119.4x30.5x30.5cm]
12 x 12” [30.5 x 30.5 cm]
78 pounds [36kg]
FlexPak, one loudspeaker per shipping box, 84 pounds [38kg]

2x Zu103ND/G1-16, 10-1/3” full-range nanotech driver in Zu Definition array covering 30–12,000 Hz Zu/U-APT-L2 tweeter assembly
better than 1% driver pair matching, 0.1% on all other electrical components
accepting: 1/4” spade [6.3mm fork], 5/16” spade [8mm fork], bare wire ≤ #4 AWG, banana plugs

100dB SPL @ 1W/1m
8 ohm, nominal full bandwidth (5 ohm minimum at 270 Hz)

Dana

So this was just a "tease" posting?

Good to see you back Dana; I'm looking forward to the review.

Ooooh! Spendy and Efficient!!

Yes, looking forward to hearing about your experience.

Very interesting; such a different speaker.
Please keep us updated.

First some pics...forgive the last pic, my daughter loves the Kardashians, well Ok..I watch it too... Is Kim Pregnant here? LOL!

I don't think I could get 2 more completely different speakers...

Whats the WAF on those ?

The speakers or the Kardashians?

Ok, I'll try not to drag this out too long. But anyways, for the past 6 months I have been wanting to try different speakers, only because I have been obsessed with direct 2 channel music listening, no audyssey, no processing, nothing, just Flac on my pc direct to my Onk avr.

I have been looking at Salk HT2-TL's, Philharmonic Phil 2's, JTR Noesis 212 and Tekton Pendragons. The more I researched, what caught my attention was ultra high efficiency speakers. So I ruled out the Salks (can't see spending over $4k on speakers) and Phil 2's. That left me with JTR Noesis and the Pendragons. I wanted to really hear what all the buzz was about with H.E. speakers. As much as the JTR's get rave reviews for music (they are designed for home theater BTW), I had to rule them out simply because they are not full range and must be used with subs. That doesn't fit my 2 channel direct music addition. So that left me with just the Pendragons.

Now the Tekton Pens and Lore's have been getting some reviews that quite honestly seemed too good to be true. But most disturbing was Eric's (one man show and founder of Tekton Design) horrendously long lead times. Some folks waited for 6 months to get Eric's speakers, I just couldn't do that no matter how good they sound. This leads me to searching audiogon hoping for some used pen's or even Lore's that I could pick up used with no wait time. I had seen on the forums that a couple folks were lucky enough to pickup a used pair off audiogon.

After a month, no luck. I was then reading audiogon's forum posts and came across a guy who had both the Pens and the Zu Audio Omen Def's. He was comparing both speakers and ended up selling the Pens, keeping the Def's. This in turn lead me to start researching the Defs.

But I really wasn't interested in spending $3200 plus shipping for the Defs. So I ended up seeing a used pair of Def's (the latest MK1-B's with the new nano drivers) on audiogon well under $2k. At this point I said hell with it and bought them. Worst case, if I hated them, I could just sell them and recoup most of my money back. I was concerned about the design, no crossovers and the use of Eminence 10" guitar speakers, how strange that was I thought. But this was also the same drivers that Eric at Tekton uses as well. Only Eric uses multiple tweeters with a crossover. Erics drivers from Eminence seemed to be stock where as Zu's drivers were custom made and tweaked by Eminence. I also thought it was interesting that Zu uses no crossovers. Zu seems to have a cult following, I couldn't find any official reviews of the newer MK1-B version of the Def's. But from what I gathered folks either love 'em or hate 'em. I read several times that Zu Audio's design and philosophy on speaker building is not for everyone...

Ah, sorry for the long intro but now here we are, the Def's arrive at my door. I rushed to unbox them and hook them up and to start some 2 channel tunes...Keep in mind, direct 2 channel, no processing, no subs. again this is how I listen to my M80's...

I had no idea what to expect, but I knew I loved my M80's and I knew the Def's had to beat them for sure if I was to keep them. I feel I know the sound of my M80's, in my room, really, really well. So I thought I would pick 3 of my go to songs and listen to both speakers as best as one could with no A/B speaker switch. I had to disconnect the M80's after each song (listened several times) then wired up the Def's and listen to the same song. I used my SPL meter to calibrate to 85db for each speaker. I was quite shocked at how much louder the Def's were at the same volume level. 100db 1w/1m is something to behold I must say.

First Song: Mark Cohen's Walking in Memphis.
I've heard this song a million times on my M80's so I knew what to expect. But I really wanted to focus on full range performance. Highs sounded great, mid range excellent and the lows, simply so good as always. For some reason in my room, the M80's really do well on the low end. No need for subs in this room...now on to the Defs.

Whoa, this was strange...where's the low end? WTF? I was kinda freaking out a little, but I remembered I read the Def's manual about speaker setup and placement. So to spare you the details I couldn't go any further until I got the setup right. This lead me into the next day of getting the speakers set up properly.

These are really strange speakers and a strange design. They have 4 ported slots on the BOTTOM of each speaker, each slot arranged weirdly and the slots go from thick to thin. The object is to get the floor spikes adjusted so the bottom of the speaker sits 1/4" to 5/8" off the floor so as the bass sounds to your liking. Now they are rated down to 30hz, but I'm thinking there is no way they go that low...I knew I was fairly limited to placement of these monsters as I only have so much space in my living room to work with. So after a couple hours of adjusting the height off the floor, going back and forth, listening to bass heavy songs, I finally got the low end I was missing. Man these things are really touchy, just am 1/8" off the floor one way or another makes a big difference in the low end.

Anyway, back to "Walking in Memphis"
WOW, now we are talking! These things just instantly had me hooked. The sound is really different, but yet similar to the M80's, it's so hard to describe. I think the high end sounded the closest to the M80's, but the mid range...the mid range seemed clearer and more pronounced. The dynamics of these speakers are fantastic. More so than the M80's. But...here's what surprised me the most...The M80's beat the Def's in the low end! It's not that the M80's sounded any better, they both sound great. I just think the M80's went lower and had more depth, maybe even more visceral impact than the Defs. It's just a different sound between the two I had to come to grips with.

I listened intensely to 2 more songs, Yes's Rhythm of Love and Molly Hatchets Dreams I'll Never See.
I have to say, the Def's are simply the funnest speaker I have heard, if that makes sense. These things go incredibly loud with no breakup and they do it so freaking cleanly, its amazing. I love the fact I will never need an external amp to blow the walls out. The headroom I have with just my receiver is something else. I love the dynamics and the soundstage is huge, the imaging is precise. And what I hear is what other Zu speaker owners hear, it's that "live sound" in your room. That the vocalist, the keyboardist is "actually in your room with you" sound. The best way to describe it I think...is when listening to the piano in "walking in memphis" on the M80's, I hear the recording of the piano playing thru the speakers. With the Def's I hear the actual piano keys playing thru speakers, like they bypassed the recording process. It's really special.

I will say this about both speakers. At low to moderate levels, no one would know which was which speaker. But as you go louder, it's not that the defs are better sounding, they are just "different".
Soundstage is great on both, some advantage to the Def's. Imaging is great on both, slight advantage to the Def's. Dynamics definitely go to the Def's. I think in regard to the highs, it's a tie. Both sound the same to me. The midrange...this is a tough one, as I have to say Zu designed these speakers for midrange, for vocals, for a specific range...it seems, that is slightly dominant over the M80's.
Another thing, both speakers are extremely revealing. I never felt either speaker masked poor recordings.

As for the low end, at this point I have to give a slight edge to the M80's. That really surprised me, it goes to show how good the M80's do in the bass department, at least in my room. I can live with the bass in the Def's, but I wish they had the M80's low end, that would be really special. But you can't have everything, Damn it!

I think that for a pair of $1300.00 M80's (what I paid for them) to go up against a pair of $3200 speakers and still hold there own, and then some, is a true testament to the M80's value and performance for the dollar spent. Let alone Axiom's smaller drivers going up against four 10" full range drivers. I would not have paid $3200.00 plus for the Def's, or likely any speaker for that matter. I just don't think the difference of $1900 plus...is worth it.

So which speakers am I keeping...?

Well, that was a tough decision. I like them both for different reasons. It really came down to which "sound" I preferred...a more audiophile (whatever that is ) sound or a more "live" in your face sound. I chose the Def's...the M80's have to go and I will dearly miss them.

I guess I'm in the "Zu Cult" now. But don't worry, I still have my M22's and QS8's, & they aren't going anywhere. I will say what others have said about Zu's speakers and other H.E. speakers for that matter, they are NOT for everyone. Some folks will absolutely hate them, as they would likely hate Tekton's sound as well. If you like a more refined, laid back sound, the Def's are not for you. But for me, I was missing that dynamic, in your face, in your room, forward sounding musical blast of ferociousness that the Def's provide me.

So there you have it, hope you enjoyed my journey.

Yea, they are huge...and I was concerned (more like sweating) when the wife walked in from work and seen those things....she looked at them, paused, then said..."oh honey, the silver rings on those circles match the TV stand"

Then I exhaled...

Dana, enjoyed reading your review. You used the term "dynamics" several times and I'm curious as to what you mean as to that criterion. My own usage is that the dynamics in a musical recording are an inherent characteristic of the source material and that any quality speaker has to accurately reproduce that range, neither more nor less.

Fair question John. What I'm referring to is musical powerfulness and energetics. Your definition is spot on however. Us former musicians (rock bands), we use the term to explain perceived swings in volume, notes, piano plucks, crack of the snare, or guitar runs where the guitar player is manipulating the volume of a sustain note with his hands/fingers, and that "volume shift" sounding "dynamic" to us. May sound strange, but the best way I describe it when listening to a piano where the pianist is pressing the keys softer and then harder...with the Def's, that difference in volume, soft to hard press of the keys is more noticeable and stands out more than the axioms. Doesn't mean the axioms don't or can't produce that, of course they can. Just it's more "in your face" forceful or vigorous on the Def's.

Okay, I'm not really grasping the audible difference in the "dynamics", since as my previous comment implies, I'm of the view that accurately reproducing the dynamic range in a recording is a minimum requirement for a quality speaker, and that two quality speakers with overall sound differences should be essentially identical in the dynamics aspect.

Be that as it may, another point you mentioned was speaker "efficiency"(sensitivity is maybe a better term since even that 100dB/1 watt number equates to only about 9% efficiency). Why so much emphasis on a speaker that could do even the loudest peaks with a 10 watt amplifier, when units rated around 100 clean watts are readily available at modest cost?

Forgive me John, but you'll have to expand on that question, no idea what you mean...you mean why I like high sensitivity speakers?

Very interesting review, however, it would seem that "mid-range" difference may come in the form of the crossover setting and its emphasis much like the mid-range/high emphasis in a tube guitar amplifier(I am an old player). I would suspect here the natural response would be that because this portion of the music came across "louder" in that frequency range, the music seems more forward and "live" in its response. I suppose the bulk of us here are "Axiomites" and we have our favourites, however, you bring up a couple of good points in your review that no matter what, would certainly make me strongly NOT consider the purchase of the Omen Defs.

Since I would imagine the majority of us here would have a combined A/V set-up in which we would be listening and watching both movies and music within the same system, the very size of these speakers and in order to "max out" their response especially at the low end and the somewhat greater sensitivity to placement, would be a turn-off for me. The fact that the cabinet is so much bigger yet the laws of physics don't seem to come in to play here. If I was buying these speakers brand new from the company itself, along with the larger driver size and a significantly larger cabinet, for the money spent, I would have expected a noticeably greater bass response. To me, this excellent review and comparison maybe just shows how really good the Axiom design is.

I believe most of us or for that matter, any audiophile who listens to music, prefers the "across the board" smoother neutral sound, especially when it comes to music.

Over the years, I have had and disposed of many models in various forms and sizes and, I suppose I am showing my loyalty here, but the M80's turned out to be the equal or best of the lot, especially for the money. Just my two cents anyway.

I was thinking the same thing, Casey. It is apparently a very different - perhaps even unique - approach to bass enclosures. I haven't spent enough time trying to study it, but I am intrigued. I thought that - between horns, acoustic reflex (sealed), ported and transmission-line - there wasn't anything new under the sun relative to tuning boxes for bass response. I am constantly amazed by other people's creativity.

There seems to be a whole sub-culture of folks (mostly tube-heads?) seeking extraordinarily efficient speakers. Likewise, there are a lot of folks who believe that single, full-range drivers have a lot to offer relative to phase coherence and imaging. The Zu designs seem to execute both of these ideas. Sometimes, I do wish I both had the money and felt comfortable spending it on such things.

I had quite an epiphany a few years ago when I heard Salk speakers for the first time. Likewise, hearing Sean's Odyssey Lorelei's was a wonderful revelation regarding just how good a two-channel music system can sound.

I do sometimes wonder whether two-channel is really "better sounding" than multichannel reproduction, or whether it's just more amazing to create such a big sonic image with so few drivers.

At any rate, Dana, thanks very much for the good review. I enjoyed reading it and especially learning from you. So glad that you have some new excitement in your listening routine. Enjoy!

Excellent review, always good to hear an unbiased account, about another set of speakers in relation to the M80. It would be nice to be able to try other speakers, even if only for comparison. Just like a car, no one keeps the same one forever, and seldom do they buy the same car twice. The omens seem to have a nice flat frequency response and an interesting driver array for sure. So called experts would poo poo crossing a 10" full range over to a small tweeter let alone run 3 tweeters like the tekton pedragon . Fortunately for you , you picked them up at well below suggested retail. Enjoy your new toys.

Richard

Casey, Tom, Richard,

Thanks for the kind words, it so refreshing to see how axiom owners have such an open mind about other types of speakers. Very rarely would someone see such positive responses with no backlash at all when someone comes to an owners forum and posts about other speakers. Thank you all for that...a true testament to just how great this forum and the community here is!

I wish I could get these things out into the room more, about 3-4 feet away from the walls, but that means I would need a new house!

Sure, Dana; just wondering why such an emphasis on speaker sensitivity(even dropping a fine average sensitivity Philharmonic from consideration)when these days amplifier power is so plentiful and relatively inexpensive.

SPL is SPL they shouldn't sound louder, perhaps you meant to say something else, perhaps more detailed, stronger/more distinct bass? If they were truly louder then the SPL was not the same. I would say there was obviously a much different sound from what you are used to with the M80s and you enjoyed this new sound which is what it is all about.

No worries casey, you are still an axiomoe LOLz . I am starting my build on a set of Seas / Thor floorstanders. I am not unhappy with my M80's ,just want to try something different. I totally get it,your a music lover and this is an addictive hobby .


Richard

Lol!, yea... I meant the Def's were so much louder with the volume "dial" at the same level. Had to turn it down to get to 85db...

Actually, I asked Dennis Murphy (designer of the Phil 2's) about the Phil's being a match to my listening practices. I do like it loud at times and mostly rock and progressive rock is what i listen to. Dennis has the same amp that I had, a Marsh a400s...even Dennis recommended to me the Phil's were not the best match for louder rock music. Who am I to question the designer of Salk (crossovers) and the Phil speakers...Dennis is a stand up guy and would never try to sell you something if he didn't think it was a fit for you. He actually suggested for me to look at something more sensitive.

So, yea, I guess there is something to be said for high sensitivity speakers, at least for me anyways, and that was what peaked my interest to begin with. So the fact that I do, at times, like to crank up to above 107db for brief periods of time of course (risk hearing damage I know), my emphasis on high sensitivity speakers is "in my mind" warranted.

At the same time with amp technology relatively cheap you can achieve those same SPL levels with more amperage to "overcome" a lack of speaker sensitivity; ~$2000 gets you a pretty powerful amp. Your next purchase.....waiting for that review.

I ordered a pair of Pendragons 5 weeks ago! I sure hope I don't have to wait 6 months. But from what I understand, they are well worth the wait.

I'm doing the same thing as you, putting together dedicated 2 channel, full range system (no subwoofer!) and definitely not HT amp powered. I just bought the PrimaLuna Premium Integrated and it rocks. It easily de-bunks the myth that "all amps sound the same". Just perfect mix of modern slam and tube magic. A bargain at twice the price.

I also got a Schiit Gungir DAC for cds/music server. It's pretty amazing also. Although it has only too well pointed out the fallacy that all digital is the same! I get vastly different sound via different transports and even switching between coaxial and toslink on the same machine. I thought digital was perfect all the time?

Now for analog goodness... I'm gonna top off all this off with a VPI Classic 3. An early Christmas present for me and my gal.

'Cause I love my records and she loves to boogie...

Nice to see that I'm not alone on the journey to find 2 channel bliss.

Very Nice Terry!

WOW! Congrats man, you will be in sonic bliss when those pens come in. You need to stay on Eric every week relentlessly. Some have threaten to cancel their order after 8 weeks and low and behold, Eric ships them like 2 days later...

Those Pens are freaking gargantuan! I hear the low end is killer once you get the placement right.

I bet that primaluna is sweet, can't imagine that with the pens...we will need pics and full review when you get the pens! Looking forward to the outcome...

Oh man, now you got me thinking about getting a integrated tube amp.

Dana

Wow, thanks so much for the review, Dana. Really enjoyed reading about your findings. Glad you found a speaker that offers you a little different variation and brings joy to your listening experience.

With the high efficiency of the Zu speakers, you might even look at low powered powered options like OTL or SET amps?

^^^ Yes, maybe my next purchase...SET or I'm thinking about a hybrid amp as well...Tube Head, Tube Head...

Dana

Very nice review; thank you for taking the time.

The discussion about sensitivity and SPL and what-not put me in mind of my first stereo adventures, back in the 70s. My first "serious" stereo was powered by a Sansui amp with Infinity speakers. The speakers had those wonderful EMIT tweeters that sounded glorious but were delicate and inefficient. Unfortunately, in those days I wanted my rock to really kick and I kept blowing those tweeters to smithereens.

So, I changed tactics, sold the Infinities and bought a pair of pro audio speakers from Carvin. They were big, heavy, indestructible, and sported a sensitivity rating of 105 db @ 1 watt @ 1 meter. I hooked 'em up to my 85 watt per channel Sansui and I could rock a gymnasium!

They were by no means audiophile, but they really fit my needs at the time. Sometimes there's just no substitute for volume.

P.S. - I still have the Carvins. I crank them up about once a year to blow the dust out and remind myself of my misspent youth.