 Re: Trade off question
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Wow, you have a ton of threads asking the same questions over and over again. No, there not all the same. And I am getting some informed answers here. Thank Exlabdriver, Brendo. MoJo and a couple others. There are no store and Dwight On is 1800 miles away so, it is not like I can walk into a store and hear them all in different scenario's. I do not have $10,000 either to send off to have these all shipped so I can hear the difference and make an informed decision on my own. I have to rely on what others have and experience and pick brains of people who have more knowledge. I just spent $2000 for a set of M80v3, about a damn month before the M80v4 came out. Maybe I will buy a ticket on Powerball and become a billionaire and just order the whole line up. I got some information on Atmos, very helpful to the point I am not sure I need to go there. Thinking maybe just go with the wides and heights. So, that saving me money from upgrading the PrePro for now. Like I said, if I am going to be using a sub, why do I need M80v4 or even the HP line ? when M60's would do just as good a job. I hear the only reason for M80 is to go LOUDER and LOUDER I do not need. I gave an example of my listening levels. PS I think I am the only Axiom owner in Nova Scotia so I cannot go and hear them at a persons house either
Last edited by TroyD; 01/13/16 02:55 PM.
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Re: Trade off question
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 635
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OK, So here's my view.
As in another post, someone mentioned the reason for the towers and subs in movies was basically bottom end up front stage.
Yet, Audessy or whatever you use, sets the cut off at 60 or 80hz.
Well, then I hear that colourization of the bass in the speakers interacts negatively on the mid-range and tweeters. So, now the tweeters have there own chamber and the mid-ranges have a bucket over them.
SO, then I hear that if the M22 are played to loud, they tend to distort etc breakup what ever. Well, if they are doing that , then seems to me that there identical tweeters and mid ranges, they'd do the same in the M60's.
So, if you have adequate subs, tuned in properly etc, does it not make better sense, to just remove the Woofers from the equation. Leave the mids and highs to the one speaker M22's and let the bottom end be dealt with by a speaker that is best designed for this the SUB. Seems to me you just need proper placement and tuned correctly and you should have great sound and normal listening levels.
I mean Ken Kreisel thinks this way. I mean I can speand $3400 on M80v4 HP plus as I am told still need subs $3000.
or I can spend $1000 on M22, plus $3000 on subs and have almost as good sound and my listening levels. That is what I am trying to find out?
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Re: Trade off question
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,021 Likes: 1
connoisseur
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,021 Likes: 1 |
Troy - Let's start with the Physics of a loud speaker, and what we are asking of it. We often see our hearing as being from 20-20,000 Hz. In reality, most of us hear little above anywhere from 10,000 to 15,000 Hz. Of course, this has been blind tested. My last test showed about a 14,000 Hz "ceiling".
In terms of real speaker performance, we have 10 octaves that have the following spans from 1 to 10:
1: 16-32 Hz
2: 32-64 Hz
3. 64-128 Hz
4. 128-256 Hz
5. 256-512 Hz
6. 512-1024 Hz
7. 1024-2048 Hz
8. 2048-4096 Hz
9. 4096-8192 Hz
10. 8192-16384 Hz
Anything above or below those frequencies are typically irrelevant, but if a speaker can reproduce them cleanly, it would be considered a plus.
Next, let's look at the size of the wavelength at the deepest frequencies:
16 Hz: 70.625 feet
20 Hz: 56.5 feet
40 Hz: 28.25 feet
64: Hz: 16.75 feet
I stopped at 64 Hz because 16-64 Hz represents the two lowest octaves of our hearing range.
Now let's look at the amount of excursion based on frequency: Every time you halve the frequency, you need 4 times the excursion to achieve the same SPL.
For example, look at the 64 Hz bass tone - which is a 17.65 foot long wave length. If a driver requires 0.25 inch to achieve, say, 105 dB at 64 Hz, the same driver will require 4 inches for 105 dB at 16 Hz.
In my personal system, I am running a pair of LFR-1100's with an amp that can deliver 125 watts into EACH of the 6.5 inch HP woofers (it's a 375 wpc amp).
I still operate an EP-800 crossed at 40 Hz to the LFR-1100's, and the effect is not subtle. Not only does the bass hit much harder and deeper (it is essentially a 1.33 octave range), the subwoofer is taking the load off the main speakers, which allows them to be even more dynamic.
You have a tremendous system. Would you give up the 1.33 octaves that span from appx. 6600 Hz to 16,384 Hz? Looking at your system in a linear fashion during more demanding scenes, you currently have about a 40 Hz floor, giving up the 1.33 octaves below 40 Hz.
A single EP500, EP600 or EP800, properly dialed in, would make a huge improvement in your system. I would recommend a 60 Hz crossover, and let the subwoofer handle the 16-60 Hz material.
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Re: Trade off question
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 635
aficionado
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OP
aficionado
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 635 |
Troy - Let's start with the Physics of a loud speaker, and what we are asking of it. We often see our hearing as being from 20-20,000 Hz. In reality, most of us hear little above anywhere from 10,000 to 15,000 Hz. Of course, this has been blind tested. My last test showed about a 14,000 Hz "ceiling".
In terms of real speaker performance, we have 10 octaves that have the following spans from 1 to 10:
1: 16-32 Hz
2: 32-64 Hz
3. 64-128 Hz
4. 128-256 Hz
5. 256-512 Hz
6. 512-1024 Hz
7. 1024-2048 Hz
8. 2048-4096 Hz
9. 4096-8192 Hz
10. 8192-16384 Hz
Anything above or below those frequencies are typically irrelevant, but if a speaker can reproduce them cleanly, it would be considered a plus.
Next, let's look at the size of the wavelength at the deepest frequencies:
16 Hz: 70.625 feet
20 Hz: 56.5 feet
40 Hz: 28.25 feet
64: Hz: 16.75 feet
I stopped at 64 Hz because 16-64 Hz represents the two lowest octaves of our hearing range.
Now let's look at the amount of excursion based on frequency: Every time you halve the frequency, you need 4 times the excursion to achieve the same SPL.
For example, look at the 64 Hz bass tone - which is a 17.65 foot long wave length. If a driver requires 0.25 inch to achieve, say, 105 dB at 64 Hz, the same driver will require 4 inches for 105 dB at 16 Hz.
In my personal system, I am running a pair of LFR-1100's with an amp that can deliver 125 watts into EACH of the 6.5 inch HP woofers (it's a 375 wpc amp).
I still operate an EP-800 crossed at 40 Hz to the LFR-1100's, and the effect is not subtle. Not only does the bass hit much harder and deeper (it is essentially a 1.33 octave range), the subwoofer is taking the load off the main speakers, which allows them to be even more dynamic.
You have a tremendous system. Would you give up the 1.33 octaves that span from appx. 6600 Hz to 16,384 Hz? Looking at your system in a linear fashion during more demanding scenes, you currently have about a 40 Hz floor, giving up the 1.33 octaves below 40 Hz.
A single EP500, EP600 or EP800, properly dialed in, would make a huge improvement in your system. I would recommend a 60 Hz crossover, and let the subwoofer handle the 16-60 Hz material. Thank you. So my current system is M80v3 and a vp180v3. SO, you are saying stand pat and just get a couple good subs.?
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Re: Trade off question
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,021 Likes: 1
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,021 Likes: 1 |
Troy - If your son wants your speakers, and you want to sell them, that's cool. The "standing pat" is not necessarily a recommendation, it was my way of telling you the first path to improvement would be the subs - either a pair of EP500's or something like the EP800.
Crossed at 60 Hz, you won't be able to localize an EP800, but a pair of EP500's would also be excellent, and not much more $$$.
If you sell your current system, my recommendation is contacting Debbie and getting the best price possible for a pair of M80's, a VP180 and either a pair of EP500's or a single EP800.
The M80's will deliver the dynamics you want with the dual mids/tweeters matching with the same line up in the VP180.
The subs handling the bass from 16 to 60 Hz (and keep in mind, it's not a brick wall - at 60 Hz, the M80's will be "down 3 dB", which is half the power - and roll off at 12 dB per octave below that), properly dialed in, will be noticeable on a lot of music.
Think of it as a modular "superspeaker" with a powered 12 inch driver handling the deepest bass.
Last edited by craigsub; 01/13/16 04:53 PM.
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Re: Trade off question
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,767
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Sep 2011
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My M22s (both V3s & V4s) have never 'broken up' with all of the listening that I've done over the years - sometimes very loud.
What you have read elsewhere is probably very dated & can largely be taken with a grain of salt - there was a lot of negative parroting going on out there a few years ago. Virtually any speaker will break up if over driven & that is normally due to the amp running out of juice.
The M22s are rated at 200 Watts which is more than adequate for normal consumer use...
TAM
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Re: Trade off question
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Thank you Craig. I think I will keep the speakers, I don't think there is any benefit in upgrading if I am going to use a sub.
I have been trying to read all reviews I can on subs etc. I have the list narrowed down to four.
It is hard because there all factory direct sold except the JL Audio. Which I can hear in Dartmouth. The F112 and the E112.
Again in trying to find out the best deal. For instance just how good is the EP500 at $1500 compared to say the SVS Ultra at $2000. Is the extra $600 for the SVS worth it. Will I as a normal person, I just cannot hear the details you guys do or notice, as you know. But, would I notice the difference to warrant paying and extra $600.
Here's ythe list starting with most expensive.
1.) JL Audio F112
2) JL Audio E112
3) SVS Ultra sealed
4) SVS Plus 12
5) Axiom EP500
6) HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP. Only issue is only ordered via USA
I am kinda leaning towards the SVS Ultra and or JL Audio E112. but Ultra is $600 worth the extra. The JL Audio is $1400 more so I don't think I will go there.Unless there is that much of a difference.
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Re: Trade off question
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 635
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PS I think I just realized to eliminate the JL's and the SVS Plus is just too big. Currently the room will be 13 x 18 x 8. However, in about 3 - 4 years I am going to move and build a bigger room. 15 x 23 x 9. I guess at that point I can always go to four SVS Ultras or four EP500's.
Thanks for your input
all of you
Last edited by TroyD; 01/14/16 01:33 AM.
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Re: Trade off question
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 635
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And this is getting ridiculous. Three times this week I had to request a new password. It works for one day maybe two then I have to request a renew.
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Re: Trade off question
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,593 Likes: 1
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,593 Likes: 1 |
Sounds like you have your subs too hit, and likely imbalanced beteen makes.
I'm resisting the want to help you. I have given you advice before and was ignored. Your setup will remain hobbled until you learn how to set it up correctly. It wont matter what you upgrade to.
If you cant get a simple password to work......
Craigsub and Exlab are right. Good advice. Ken is also right. You are a broken record of a lost puppy. A puppy who cant learn or listen to others. To the pound with you. Lol.
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