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Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431195 02/04/19 03:36 PM
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You guys will not want to hear what I've discovered with my Onk multi-channel receiver vs my Pioneer stereo mid-grade audiophile receiver.

With my Onk, I don't have more than 10dB of dynamic range at less than a watt per channel in stereo. At a louder volume level of 6W per channel, I have no more than 3dB of dynamic range.

This is in stark contrast to the Pioneer that has at least 20dB of range. frown

Even though the Onk can dump over 170W into each channel in steady-state, dynamically it's a eunuch!

Now I question where this limiting is taking place. Is it at the last amplifier stage or at the pre-amp?

This is ridiculous. The industry needs standards to protect consumers.

Thanks for the input so far. 55W per channel won't cut it for my stereo setup and it certainly won't cut it for my main space.


Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431197 02/04/19 06:51 PM
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I replaced the Onk with the Pioneer and wow! The M100s just came to life. Better everything. I don't need the 800 any more for music. You can hear and see the grip of the Pioneer on those M100s. Just like when I replaced the Denon in the living room, I no longer need Audyssey.

Ian is sending me an ADA-1000-3 and an ADA-1500-3. We'll see what difference those make. smile


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
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Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431201 02/04/19 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted By Mojo
Ian is sending me an ADA-1000-3 and an ADA-1500-3. We'll see what difference those make. smile


Oh, cool. For some reason I thought you already had an ADA to try.

Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431204 02/05/19 11:46 AM
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A couple of excellent - and very expensive - options are Simaudio's Moon amplifiers and YBA amplifiers.


Regards,

Mike
Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431205 02/05/19 06:23 PM
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Thanks. As I read the info on the Moon site, I am reminded of how difficult it is to produce a "high quality" amplifier particularly with large output. Back in the early 2000s, I was involved with building 6 channel amplifiers (3 voltage, 3 current) from 10Hz to 500Hz output. We had a hell of a time with just about everything. Vibration - check. S/N - check. Connection integrity throughout the entire system - check. Gain consistency across all channels, power levels and frequencies - check. Meeting safety and environmental regulations - check. Production integrity/repeatability - check. Fast forward to now and it appears to me the same concerns surface in audio.

Incidentally those amps sold for $60K a piece. I can't afford that. I'm also getting completely drained from all the research I have to do just to figure out what the hell I need. For example, is 105dB of S/N practically better than 100dB and why? Is there a standard way of measuring these types of quantities across manufacturers?

So many questions!

Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431206 02/05/19 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted By Mojo
I'm also getting completely drained from all the research I have to do just to figure out what the hell I need.
So many questions!

Perhaps you are over thinking this...from one engineer to another, spend your time enjoying the sound and not the hardware.


Regards,

Mike
Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431207 02/05/19 08:02 PM
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I was living with Boses and I thought they were the cat's ass. Then I moved to v2 and knew that Bose was an ugly mirage. Then the move to v4 caused me to question reality. Now I question everything in audio including my AC outlet!

I want practically good sound - not hardware to show off. So, like some other engineers, I need to know what specs lead to practically good sound and no more. And then I need the data that those specs are being met. Or at least I want to know what I am giving up and how much difference that makes.

As my son is finding out, it's either a joy or it sucks to be an engineer depending on your point of view. Nature, and our role in it, looks different to some of us engineers. smile

Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431208 02/05/19 08:58 PM
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Of course, there are personal bias variables that specs will never be able to account for. Some people actually like distortion and noise, otherwise, who would buy that Finnish death metal stuff?

I also find I'm usually happy with what I've got until I hear something profoundly better. Following this thread isn't helping me stay happy with what I've got and would explain why I have a pair of M100s sitting in my cart waiting for me to pull the trigger (I'm heading up to Dwight on March 2nd..., may be coming home heavier than I when I left.). Of course, my 50wpc NAD is not likely to survive this speaker upgrade either!

However, I'm cheap enough to know a McIntosh/Moon/Classé amp will never see the inside of my home unless I win the lottery.

Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431209 02/05/19 10:38 PM
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I want my distortion and noise to be what the recording engineer intended and not what a vendor built because they don't even know what they don't know. This is actually the biggest problem in engineering. Anyone can design to a requirement. Knowing what requirement to design to - THAT is the biggest problem in any domain. That's the research part. The part where science is done.

I used to think 55W a channel was plenty. The old timers here know me as the guy who thought a half watt was enough. But then the v4 came and I started to see instruments on a stage behind the v4 with space between them. I could see the potential. So I turned it up. And it sounded good. It sounded live! Then I put the pioneer into my M5 2-channel set up. And it was a revelation. Then I played Hit the Road Jack by Renee Olstead. And I turned it up and up and up...then the drum...followed by silence... because my pioneer shut down. So I did it again and realized that must be a peak and it brought the pioneer to its knees. I ran downstairs and played it on the M100/Onk and no matter how far I tuned up the gain, it would not shut down but it got offensive. Then I paid attention. There was a definite difference in the sound between the pioneer and the Onk. The Onk was flat...no dynamics. So I wanted to do some science and pulled out the SPL meter. I was getting a 20dB peak on my pioneer setup but only 10dB on the Onk. I thought "It's those damned multi-driver M100s that can't keep up". So out comes the multi-meter and sure enough the pioneer is being driven to its rails (likely beyond but my meter isn't a lab instrument) during the peak but the Onk's voltage is well below its rails but not representative of the peak at all. So the Onk is too slow to follow the transient or it's being artificially limited. I paired up the pioneer with the M100 and bang - instant dynamics! BTW, the dynamics in that tune are better preserved on Tidal rather than Spotify.

So I don't know if your NAD will be good enough. But if you buy a v4, you might start a long journey that may take a long time to reach a final destination or worse because you may never get there.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431210 02/05/19 10:47 PM
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There is a guy on youtube that amp dynos a lot of products. A pretty fun channel to follow.

He has tested 2 older Nad amps. Both pretty much doubled their rated output and had quadruple their rating in dynamic power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA582cvAfjA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK7xss_IcSg

That being said they are built to a price like anything else. If you really don't want to wonder I would say go ahead and buy the Axiom amp.

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