After nearly 12 years with my M80v2 and QS8v2, it was time to give v4 a chance at my fronts and surrounds. So onto M5HPs and QS10HPs. I'm giving separates a shot as well with an ADA-1000-3. If the M5HPs don't work out, there's always the M100s I suppose.

My gratitude goes out to Craig Chase for discussions over the last year about soundstage and to Andrew and Ian for helping me with the decision. They listened to my needs and gave me great answers and advice.

Someone will be very happy with my M80s and QS8s.

Mojo - Looking forward to reading your impressions of the new speakers. Congratulations on making the step up!

Very nice, Mojo! It'll be nice to hear your impressions. I ordered a pair of M5HPs myself with the recent promotion (from the Factory Outlet to save even more). I would have ordered two pairs if I had the disposable income at the time, just so I'd be set with direct-firing speakers for my eventual move to a full Atmos setup.

I'm going to try one of the M5HPs briefly as a center in place of my current VP180 just to see if I want to return to a vertical center. I used to use an M22, and while I felt pretty satisfied with it, I did notice the extra heft in the VP180.

Also interested in what you have to say about the ADA. I have a 1500-4 to run my LFRs and a 1000-4 with one channel not being utilized to run my center and two of the surrounds. I've been really happy with how clean they sound at any volume level I've tried, but my experience is limited to A/V receiver amplification and a brief amount of time with an Emotiva amp.

Thank you, Charles. You know I'll report back about my thoughts.

Ooh, wonder when they will appear in the refurb store? What colour were they? If cherry, I might pick them up :-)

That said, my trade-in's haven't appeared yet in the store or maybe they were picked up quickly :-)

Standard black oak. I expect they'll be back sometime in November. I put the order in for the M5s two days ago. BTW, yesterday I received an automated email telling me exactly what state my order was in and who's working on it.

It's my first experience with these emails, too. Yesterday, my M5HPs were in quality control, and today they were in the packaging stage. I assume they'll ship tomorrow!

Axiom is building a factory with a drone army. Ian will become the Bezos of all things audio.

So far, according to the automated e-mails, the drone named Moe has been working on my ADA, Mike on my M5 and John on my QS10.

The on-line store worked very well this time around and flawlessly applied all the right discounts for trade-in, etc.

The user manuals are so much better as well. It's great to see all this progress Axiom is making on so many fronts.

... and this guy is working on the extension out back of the current factory:

HRP-5P



I was surprised how smoothly the online store handled everything... not because it had been bad in the past but because I had never thrown such a wierd combination of trade-ins and new orders at it before.

My cyber-security training re-programmed my brain neurons to never click on a link like your HRP-5P above. Especially since that link came from a tough-talking psychopath whose best friend is a .44 Magnum.

The only thing I was disappointed about was the lack of a choice in the trade-in drop-down for Totem Dreamcatchers.

Trust me, I know what I'm doing...

Always shoot first and ask questions never!

awesome news!

I got my M80v2 at about the same time you let the smoke out of your Emotiva with your M80s.

lol, funny never thought I'd get Emo again, I do have an A500 driving my M3 ceiling speakers for Atmos, not using one of its channels.

As someone who wanted floorstanders and 'settled' on in-wall M5HP's, curious to know what led you to make the switch. Is a single HP driver almost as good as dual non-HP's? When do you expect to receive your new speakers?

They're being packed but I also bought M3s for my living room and I told Deb I'm in no rush so she can send everything all at once. The M3s are in the early stages. Maybe I'll get everything including the QS10s, M5 stands and ADA-1000-3 in a couple of weeks.

I don't need high SPL. What I need is the wide and tall soundstage the M80v2 give me with greater depth and sharper placement of instruments in the soundstage. Discussions with Ian, Andrew and Craig Chase have led me to believe the v4 will give me all that. Andrew has told me the M5HP is a more refined speaker than the M80v2. Both Ian and Craig have told me v4 is a different presentation than v2. Craig has told me the soundstage is more accurate. The M5, being shallower, will allow me to place them even further from the front wall with the hope that the soundstage depth will shine. My only concern with the M5HP is preserving the width I now enjoy but I'll never know until I try them.

I said above I don't need more power. I don't listen loud. But that could be due to distortion in my Onk that is offensive to my ears. So I ordered the ADA to hear if there is any difference.

If I don't like what I hear, it will all go back. I'm not into audio to feed my ego. If it sounds amazing, I'll praise it far and wide like my 800v4 and 160v4.

That's great to hear! Really speaks to the awesome design of the M5HP. Very interested to see your thoughts on how they sound vs the M80v2 once you get everything set up.

Last I heard, John had started assembly on my 4 M3 in-walls. I'm really looking forward to a road trip within the next month to tour Axiom HQ and pick everything up!

I'd love to do that trip with you if I wasn't on the other side of the country.

Ah too bad. Should be a nice drive if I can do it before all the leaves fall.

I think distortion could very well be the culprit. I didn't enjoy my Onkyos near reference levels, but after getting separate amps, everything sounds clean, not harsh, as hard as I want to push it. I'm still paranoid about hearing loss, so I don't go crazy, but I feel like I'm getting the full theater experience. Honestly, it sounds better than any theater around here for my money.

So...what about those M5s, Charles?

I haven't tried them as my mains yet, or a single one as a center, so I can't give a true appraisal yet. They seemed more than adequate as side surrounds when I finished my rewatch of The Wire, however. I finally cracked open my Blu-ray box set, and besides looking really good, the audio was fun, too. Plenty of surround information coming through in city scenes, really felt like you were in the hustle and bustle.

I had to help a friend move today, and tomorrow I have to celebrate two other friends' birthdays, but I'm going to try to make time to try them as mains at least for a little while.

I've started my site acceptance test of all my v4 gear. I've got M80s, M5HPs, M3s and Totem Dreamcatchers, QS10HPs and QS8s all set up. I've got the ADA-1000-3, the Onk, a Yammie and a Pioneer dual mono block amp to power the gear.

The biggest surprise thus far has been the M3v4. As you all know, I heard the M3Ti a decade ago and hated it. But the M3v4...wow! Absolutely no problem getting loud in my 4,200 ft^3 space and the soundstage, imaging and clarity is simply outstanding! I've held the Dreamcatchers in high regard but the M3s are on an entirely different level in so many ways. Wow!

Having said that, it doesn't take a golden ear to hear how much more refined the mids are with the M5HP. Flight of the cosmic hippo sounds more cosmic through the M5 but not by much.

It's also easy to hear how much louder the M80v2 is but with more smearing. Anyway, I've only just started.

Awesome! So you're liking the M5HP's over the M80s? Tried the ADA-1000 yet?

I haven't touched the ADA yet.

The M5HPs are definitely more refined than the M80v2. I need to understand if the M80v2 are giving me something that is missing in the M5HP. If so, maybe I need to look at the M80v4 and M100. But I'm definitely not there yet. So far the M5HP is so good I wonder why anyone would need anything more.

I had a fem friend over whom I blind-folded (as I do with fem friends). She's seen and heard my M80s and Dreamcatchers before but had no idea I had all the speakers ready for comparison. After about a half hour of me switching cables and her listening, it was very obvious the Dreamcatchers were the worst of the bunch. She had a tough time between the M80v2, the M5HP and the M3v4. I put on Buble and she came to some rapid conclusions. The M80v2 and M3v4 were virtually indistinguishable. The M5HP had the best over-all balance, and soundstage (depth, width, height). She said she could easily pick out the images. I then took the blind-fold off and had her listen to the speakers without knowing which ones she had commented on when blind. She easily discarded the Dreamcatchers. She had a tough time picking a winner between the M80v2 and the M3 and found the M5HP to be the most optimum. At this time, she knew what speaker she was listening to.

All of this was done at very sane listening levels of a watt average. She's now actively thinking of buying M3s and was looking at all the finishing options. I found all of this interesting to say the least.

BTW, the backs of the M5HPs are 4 feet away from the front wall, they're 9 feet apart and 6 feet away from the side walls. I'm sitting 11 feet away on the diagonal and they are naked and pointing straight ahead.

I should mention all listening is done with the EP800 on.

Nice. Good to hear the M5HPs are working out.

I was also very impressed with M3v4s (to the point of being surprised, even though I have liked M3s for maybe 15 years) but agree the balance is even better with M5HP's.

One of my man-buds was over yesterday and while he didn't want to be blind-folded, he did agree to close his eyes. After running him through the same routine, he preferred the M5s, then the M3v4, then the M80v2 and finally the Dreamcatchers. His comments were similar to my fem-friend's. He was also quite shocked with the performance of the M3s given their size and the significant difference in presentation of the M5 and M3 compared to the others.

Pretty crazy that everyone prefers the M3s to the M80s. Have you tried the ADA1000 yet?

Keep in mind, the M3's are V4s vs V2 M80s. Listening levels are also important.

I can drive the M80v2 to 110dB and M3v4 to 105dB at 3' distance. Beyond those levels, I detect distortion with my Onk and dynamic compression. I sit 11' away and those levels are too loud for me (I had earmuffs on). The M3v4 sounds better than the M80v2 and just as full. It really is freaking amazing! If you can't afford the money or space for the M5HP, you can set up a great A/V system with the M3v4 and an EP500. An EP350 may even be enough. But once you hear the M5HP, you just can't go back to the M3. You don't even have to listen critically to hear the difference. These speakers put Totem, Polk, Klipsch, KEF to shame - they are audiophile quality with wide, deep, tall and accurate soundstage, sharp images and micro and macro dynamics. My ADA-1000 feedback will be coming soon.

Nice! My plan to use M3v4's for surround/Atmos duty sounds completely overkill now.

Not over-kill at all. There's a lot more coming out the surrounds than most think. Its just that tjey cant hear it because their gear sucks or they're deaf.

Those with QS4s or QS8s need to upgrade to QS10HPs. I had no idea what I was missing until I did. Wow!

I still like the idea of having full range speakers (or subs with hi level outputs and otherwise capable surrounds) used at every position.

The QS8s are pretty much full range. Audyssey crossed them over at 40Hz and I have usable bass well below that but I haven't quantified exactly how much. It's a very stark difference to the QS8s!

I've taken the M5s off their Axiom stand and replaced them with the M3v4. I haven't recalibrated yet.

They're 12'4" apart and I'm 12'4" away on the diagonal. The tweeters are about 5" below my ears. The M3 backs are 4' away from the front wall and sides are 6' away from the side walls. I'm seated 5' away from the back wall. The 800v4 is on and crossed at 80Hz. I'm at -15 on my Onk listening to Calcutta Blues by Brubeck on Spotify Premium.

The soundstage is wider than the speaker width. It's DEEEEP...deeper than my front wall...and appropriately tall - no difference in height compared to the M5 or M80v2. The drums are wayyyyy back there! Imaging is amazing! I can say that while the M5s disappear, the M3s disappear better! The mids and highs are not as crisp and transparent and the bass is slightly thicker than the M5 but over-all it's good - really good! The soundstage is soooooo much better than my M80v2.

I never thought I'd say all this about the M3. I'm wondering now if the M22v4 (which I've equally despised since I heard the M22Ti) would improve on the M3 while disappearing just like the M3 does. Are you reading this, Alan? I'm praising the M3. Can you freakin' believe it?

The builds are terrific BTW. The M5HP has a window brace, and a thermo-formed mid-woofer enclosure. Both have nicely laid out cross-overs and decent components, generous polyfill, excellent vinyl and heavy tweeters.

It's obvious that everything Axiom learned on the LFR, M100 and Model T has trickled down into the rest of the line. I think Axiom has really screwed themselves though. With the M3, M5HP and maybe the M22, who needs floor-standing speakers?

I would take the M3v4 over my M80v2 any day.

Listening now to I don't get it from The Trinity Sessions. Craig Chase was telling me what this should sound like but I could never achieve it with my M80v2. I hear the width, incredible depth and crisp imaging with the M3v4 as he said. No...I don't need LFRs with this. It's holographic enough for me.

Now I'm afraid to re-calibrate from the M5s to the M3s because I might lose this.

Listening to the 2005 remastered version of La Habanera...still on the M3v4. The truck in the beginning starts off on the extreme left and crosses the entire 24' stage seamlessly! Its walls of sound with each wall ahead of the other leading to believable and easily discernable layers of depth. The macro dynamics are all there; the microdynamics and air not so much as with the M5. There are no discernable speakers in the soundscape - just well-positioned and delineated vocals and instruments. All this from the M3s! My M80v2 could never do anything like this.

I re-calibrated and lost absolutely nothing in sound quality. I've listened to a few more tunes and without a doubt, the M5 resolves better across the entire frequency range. The M5 sounds more natural and you don't have to strain to hear how more natural it is. However, there does not appear to be a difference in the eerily holographic quality of the soundstage - both are the same in that regard. In fact, as I reported above, the M3v4 disappears better. I have to spend more time to understand if this is the way the M3s are positioned relative to the M5s - the M5 tweeter is at ear height while the M3 tweeter is 5" below.

Interesting... I found the M5HP's did a better job of handling very wide soundstage than M3v4's, at least with audio effects that put sound sources well outside the speaker locations...

old post

In that post you linked, you said:

"OK, that was interesting. No more testing different configurations yet, but played another few CDs while working. On Sheep from Pink Floyd's "Animals" I realized what was different with the sound...

Sheep opens with electric piano and sheep noises, followed almost immediately by bass guitar. The bass is sharply located in the center, while the electric piano has always sounded "out of phase" and smeared across the soundstage with most of the sound seeming to come from a bit outside the speakers.

With the new setup the electric piano was sharply located "over there", off to the right somewhere between 30 and 40 degrees, almost twice as far from the center in terms of angle as the right channel speaker. "

I've been making similar observations with the v4. I am still working on a final verdict between the M3v4 and the M5HP as far as soundstage is concerned.

Are you using a sub with your M3s?

My first experience with Axiom was love at first listen. A pair of M3Ti's, a Velodyne 10" sub, an Antique Labs MG15DT 5 watt per channel single end triode tube amp, Ah! Njoe Tjoeb tube output CD player and Maple Shade Golden Helix speaker wire ... audio bliss.

I read you didn't like your M3ti's 10 years ago. What amp/receiver were you using?

I tried a pair of M22Ti's with the 5 wpc tube amp, hated the M22s. Dragged them out recently to try with a ~30 wpc Harman Kardon tube amp which my father got in 1962. Wow! Sounded great!!

I'm sure the new M3s and M22s sound even better, but the Ti's sound great with the right amp.

I was using a Denon receiver with the M3Ti. I also have to say I heard the M3v4 drivers in the Air but I didn't like them for a multitude of reasons. But these M3v4 speakers...they're something else! They are not JUST for small rooms. They have no problem whatsoever in my 4200 ft^3 space. I have them almost 12.5 feet apart and I'm sitting 12.5 feet away on the diagonal and imaging and soundstage are outstanding!

I am using a down-firing Yammie with the M3s that I got for $50. It's very good for music. Whether you use the M3s or M5HPs for music, a sub makes a nice difference - particularly for the M3s. I also listened to them extensively with my beloved 800v4 in my main room and the blend required no tuning whatsoever.

I've set up an M3-based living room system that was on my mind for the last 5 years. I have the M3s 4 ft away from the front wall, 20" from the sides, 8 feet apart and the MLP 8 ft on the diagonal. I'm sitting well-away from the back wall; maybe too far because I'm in the middle of the room. I'm driving them with an old Denon that doesn't have room correction. I have a long way to go to tame the room. However, the v4 soundstage is unmistakable. It's nowhere near as spectacular as my main space but the depth, width, height and image focus is characteristically v4.

I shake my head with some of the comments on the boards that Axiom hasn't innovated. Axiom burned the midnight oil squeezing everything it could with the current architecture out of The Family of Curves. It shows on the v4.

The M5HPs have completely fulfilled my audio needs. They offer audiophile sound and an amazing value. The 800v4 is icing on the cake for music and with the 160v4 and QS10HP, they complete an A/V system. For the first time in almost 12 years, I can say my main A/V space has reached a point where nothing more needs to be done. This is both good and bad. Good in that it offers me the satisfaction I've struggled to achieve and bad because I was about to pack it all in and down-size to a condo so I can free up some cash. I can't possibly imagine living the rest of my life without this sound.

To take full advantage of what the v4 offers, a large room, wide spacing and placement well away from room boundaries is a must. I tried with the M80v2 for many years and could not achieve the soundstage and imaging I so easily got with the M5HP (and M3v4). If you don't have a large space, you will still hear a big difference in clarity, imaging and soundstage.

A big shout out to Serenity_then for his panels
and of course Ian for not only helping me but having the passion, patience and vision to continuously improve. Craig Chase helped me a lot as well to clarify my needs. Now I'm thinking about something I never thought I'd want - custom finishing. I love them so much, I want to dress them properly.

Like

I was up until 4 am with one of my fem-friends taking in concert DVDs, Spotify music and YouTube tunes. We just couldn't stop! The Eagles concert was incredible. I could never get it to sound right with my v2 system no matter what; bloated bass, no pop in the drums, wrong imaging, poor soundstage, distorted highs, unclear vocals, weak surround sound. That's all history now. Wow! Just WOW! I tried soooooo hard all night to find a weakness and could not. I'd say The Family of Curves was interpreted so incredibly correctly. It's all black magic and Axiom is the evil wizard weaving spells.

Awesome

Happy for you Mo

Glad the M5HP's are working out for you. I've been loving mine, especially lately when I dropped the Marantz receiver for a benchmark ahb2, using it in stereo mode. Very good match together.

Spiroh, that sounds like an amazing amp.

I was reading the review at the link below. At the bottom of page 1, the author refers to a song and piano that can be heard bleeding through headphones. I have no problem hearing these piano notes on my system via Spotify Premium on my Onk.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/benchmark-ahb2-amplifier/

Yeah not sure on that review. I had a Marantz SR6009 which is a pretty good receiver. Power isn't much different between the AHB2 and the receiver. In fact, I was concerned if the amp would have enough power which it does. But I wanted a fully balanced system so with the AHB2 I also am using a new DAC as well. DAC to AHB using xlr connections.

I spent the day with my buddy of 40 years yesterday. I told him I upgraded my system and he readily agreed to listen blind to 2.1. He is not into audio and only listens in his car or at venues. Some of his comments and behavior were interesting:

1. "The sweetest taboo": I can hear that rain way, way back there. She's singing in front of the rain. Holy sh!t is that what this song is supposed to sound like?
2. "Once I wished a tree upside down": He's right out front. Wait he's going around the back now. He's at the back and now coming around to the front again. This is incredibly clear.
3. "Train song": Oh wow! This sounds like Holly Cole. She's here isn't she? I just saw that train going across the room!
4. "Rosanna": OMG I've heard this song so many times but not like this.
5. "Colomb": This is like having 3d glasses but on your ears.
6. "Oxygen part IV": He was completely mesmerized with this one and had no idea it was supposed to sound like this. He was moving both arms to simulate what he was hearing.
7. "Oxygene spa version": He went totally limp on this one and said he just wants to float in the saturating bass.
8. "St. Louis Blues" by Wycliffe Gordon: He asked if I moved the side walls.
9. "Belkis queen of Sheba war dance": He was smiling at the illusion of drums way in the back on the left.

There were many other moments also. Before taking off the blinders, I asked him to point to the speakers. He couldn't other than to motion from one side of the room to the other and from the floor to ceiling. I asked him to estimate the size of the speakers and he said, "Big. Very big. Floor to ceiling and very, very wide". When he took the blinders off, he looked at the M5s and then hunted around the room. He finally said, "Is that it?". I said yup and he said no way. So I played some more and he was even more floored. He said this wasn't a sound system as much as a sound to image and emotion converter.

He was also very surprised by the size of the sub given the fact he couldn't localize it.

Are the songs mentioned all off a single album?

No. I was using Spotify Premium.

Ah

I could spend my precious life posting links if it pleases you.

I finally dialed the M3v4 into my living room. The soundstage is, like Willem Dafoe exclaimed in The Boondock Saints, "frickin' huuuuge!" It's well beyond speaker boundaries with lots of aid from lateral reflections.

They're 12.5 feet apart, well away from room boundaries and the MLP is 12.5 feet away. Now get this: toe-in is extreme so they cross 2 feet in front of my face. Don't ask me the theory behind this. It's the only way I can get them to stage good in this totally crappy room. I have to be careful with the volume because I end up exciting all kinds of room effects. I can get it more than loud enough for my needs though and I've discovered my ears and the 17 year-old Denon give out long before the M3s do.

Later this week I'm gonna try the M5s in this room.

I just replaced the M3v4 with the M5 in my 2000 ft^3 living room. The soundstage width doubled! The clarity is off the charts. And to my surprise, no sub is needed except maybe for bass management.

Andrew did an amazing job on that v4 tweeter. I swear that thing has a constant magnitude radiation pattern of 180 degrees. And the highs sound so much better on the M5 than the M3. Everything sounds better.

Once you hear the M5, there's no going back. I hope listeners aren't shoving this gift from the audio gods into cubby holes and cabinets.

Awesome news Mojo.
Here in Vancouver we've got a shop called HIFI center I've been drooling over the Bryston model of the M5 for a couple years. They're totally beautifully made.
Happy to hear you're so taken with yours.

Cheers Brendan.

I'd really like to put both in a room and hear the difference.

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Active M5's...

The M100s are here! Magnificent monoliths of music and movie mellifluence!!

To cool
Anticipating your follow up. Hope they're as great as suspected.

I never expected them to be any better than the M5s in my environment. I won't have feedback against the M5s for a few days. I'm comparing them against the M3v4 in my living room.

The M100s are 5dB more sensitive than the M5HP. That means my Onk has to deliver almost 4 times less power to achieve the same SPL as the M5s. As you might imagine, the images from the M100 are much larger than the M5. The M100s are also more articulate and unveil more details (microdynamics) than the M5. Soundstage is much taller and enveloping. The jury is out on depth of the soundstage compared to the M5. They can handle everything my Onk throws at them without any hint of strain. There is no way I can bring them to their limits in my 4200 cu. ft. room without evaporating my eyeballs and melting my brain. My Onk would certainly run out of steam.

Set-up was very difficult and took me more than 8 hours to optimize their location. If I wasn't such a manly-man I'd be all sore and kinked up from moving these behemoths...lol! I tried right up against the front wall with various combos of ports plugged and open and calibrated with Audyssey and no dice - the bass was completely overwhelming. Audyssey XT32 gave up. Their optimum location is 10 feet apart with the MLP 14 feet away. Their backs are 3 feet from my front wall. Their sides are 5.5 feet away from the side walls. All 6 ports are wide open. They point straight forward. They are crossed to the 800v4 at 80Hz and Audyssey is engaged. Without Audyssey, the bass is out of control in my room even with ports plugged. In this location and configuration, their dispersive properties shine and they disappear. Jean Michel Jarre's Oxygene is simply astounding for example. The MLP is wrapped in the front, above and on the sides with an immersive bath of sound. At various times throughout the song, you are very easily fooled into believing sound is coming from and disappearing into both of the entire side walls. This is not just a small portion of the side walls as with the M5s but an entire section of my side walls from top to bottom! It's as if there is a sound circuit between my walls and the M100s; sound is sourced from the M100s, sinks into the walls, comes back out of the walls and into the 100s. I can hear the same effect from the M5s but the magnitude is nowhere near the same. The circuit is "thinner". There is also a myriad of detail in this song (as others) that I can't hear through the M5s. Another example of this microdynamics capability is Unsquare Dance. With the M5, you know two pairs of hands are clapping but the "real hands" are missing. Not so with the M100 - the hands are so very clear and you can hear exactly what you'd hear if those hands were in the room. In fact, if you close your eyes, you'd never know they are not real. With the M5s, they are small hands. With the M100, they are the correct size. On that same track, there are nuances in the drumsticks that are simply not heard with the M5s...and the drumsticks are as large as real life.

I'm unsure at this time whether I like the M100s better than the M5s in my room. While the M5 carefully paints images at or behind the plane of the drivers, the M100's plethora of drivers spray images that are large and overwhelming not only on the soundstage but also "into the room". My 21 foot room width is completely immersed to the point where I can't see the space between images. This blackness between images is something I cherish in the M5s. Two of my friends love the M100s though. I am very unsure about it and my son is on the fence. Since hearing them, one of my friends has been hounding me the last 2 days to buy my M100s which I find very surprising because he doesn't have the room and isn't in the market for speakers.

The M100 is better than the M5 as the M5 is to the M3. But I feel as if the M100 is too big even for my large space. I feel as if I want the carefully painted images on the soundstage with the sense of space in between them like the M5s but the microdynamics of the M100 and larger images. I'd also like the sensitivity of the M100s. Maybe I just need M100s with a larger room. Or maybe fully active M5HPs will be more practical and further improve on an already amazing large bookshelf design.

Build quality BTW is excellent and very solid. I was surprised to see they are filled with poly to the point where you can't see through the ports and into the cabinet. I suppose that's not too surprising when one thinks of the acoustic activity in that large cabinet and the need to suppress it. BTW, Fed Ex grossly mishandled them to the point where the packaging was punctured and badly ripped up. They were lying crossed on top of each other and on top of other smaller boxes and it's a good thing I met the driver as he opened the door. He was trying to kick them off the truck with absolutely no thought of what was in them. Fortunately the build quality and packaging protected them and even if it didn't, you can count on Axiom to take care if problems.

A great big "Thank you" goes out to Ian and Andrew for taking time out of their very busy day to autograph each one.

Tonight was the first time I sat back to enjoy the M100s alone. I made some layout changes. They're now 9.5 feet apart from center to center, backs 34.5" from the front wall and the MLP is 12.5' away. So I am now receiving more of the direct sound.

Wow, wow, wow! The imaging is now very clear yet still big. The images in Oxygene are now the same as the M5 but fuller, larger, more present and on three different front to back layers. One layer is about 3 feet in front of the drivers, another just behind and the third almost at the front wall. The one ahead of the drivers is thick and is the wall effect I described in my last post. I can hear effects leaving one layer and entering another. The soundstage depth is at least equal to the M5s. In Belkis Queen of Sheba war dance, the drum appears to the immediate outside of the left M5 at the plane of the front wall. With the M100, that same drum is 5.5' to the left of the speaker and behind my front wall! On St. Louis Blues by Wycliffe Gordon, that trumpet is waaaaaay over to the left and just as airy as the M5. All these effects are bigger than the M5 and this is at -20dB on the dial so it's nowhere close to loud. Even though there's a space of more than 5.5' to the sidewalls, that space fills with sound when called for.

I would have never believed greater clarity and detail over the M5 was possible. I can easily push them to 0dB (reference level) with no compression which I can't do with the M3v4, M5 or M80v2. While that sounds amazing, my ears can't take it for more than a minute. This is no word of a lie or exaggeration, on some tracks I hear sound behind me. And the highs with the multiple drivers are even better than the M5 which again I thought wouldn't be possible.

There is simply no reason now to entertain the M5s any longer for my main room. The M5s will replace the M3v4 in my living room. The M3s will be traded in for either an EP400 or 500 to replace the yammie sub in the living room for 2.1 music duty only.

I just finished listening to the remastered version of radioactivity by Kraftwerk. There are lots of psychoacoustic effects in there but the coolest one had me checking if my right surround had somehow turned on. 6 feet ahead of the right speaker about a foot lower than where the ceiling meets the side wall, there's a decaying cymbal-like sound shooting forward. I'm pretty sure if my QS10 wasn't there, the effect would keep on travelling to the back. This is 5.5 feet to the right of the M100 and -25dB. When I turn up the gain, the effect remains the same size but just gets louder as if there's a pseudo speaker there. Very cool!

Cool Mojo!

Like James Blake?

Life round here
Limit to your love

Etc.

Spooky cool stuff

I'll check that out.

BTW, Ian told me with the exception of the dynamic capability, they are like the M5s. That is so not true! I'm so glad I tried them out for myself and took the time to set them up as properly as I possibly can. I can't imagine how much better they'd sound with your tools, knowledge and fancy gimmicks...lol!

Ian insists the LFRs are on a completely different level and I just can't imagine that - like I couldn't imagine anything being better than the M5s...lol!

Would love to hear them! Out of reach for me price wise. Would need 3 plus amps.... 10K.....

But I'm sure they are fantastic!

Maybe in March if all works out. Then you can tell your customers what real speakers sound like. (:

Did you go for the HP version?

The LFR1100s, M100s, M5s and QS10s come with HP drivers. I have an HP driver and a v4 tweeter adorning my coffee table and I pay homage to them daily.

If you are crossing at 80hz check out the song The Hills-The Weeknd at reference

70hz to 46hz and repeat. Chest to gut rotation.

That's a very cool effect. I tried it in the living room where I have the M5s and the Yammie sub set up. Now all my stuff on the wall is on the floor and my ears are fried. I don't dare try it with the 800.

Well...couldn't resist. I played this on the 800 which is in my main system. I just couldn't take it up to reference level because it was too loud and started making me nauseous. All I heard was tight, smooth bass and, as usual, I couldn't localize the 800. All my stuff downstairs stayed put because it's glued to the wall but upstairs didn't fare so well. I need to screw everything down on my Weapons Wall.

Lol

I want M5s and Axiom sealed subs in all my rooms, my car, my van and on my face.

Yeah, its a pretty insane track -one that almost any decent sub can shine on. I was able to hit 109.5db C weighted at MLP, which is where I have my volume governor limited...... The EP800s would be a lot of fun.

The sustained Bass hits are 2 octaves wide (super low Q) so you really get a strong pressure wave from them. I would suspect in almost any room.

Clean Clean Clean. But my hearing is important....

With large displacement subs you should be able to break windows with this song in a car. Detach Retinas?

I found out again today just how important a good amp is. I've been pretty happy with my living room M5 and yammie sub driven through my 17 year old Denon. The bass wasn't the best but I figured the 500 I ordered would clean that up. The imaging and soundstage wasn't as terrific as my main system but I chalked that up to the room.

I decided to replace the Denon with my 9 year old Pioneer Elite A9 that was driving my Dreamcatchers and leave the sub out. That was 3 hours and more than 4 playlists ago.

I now have a smile on my face that won't go away. The images are razor sharp and soundstage width is wall to wall and 5 feet away from speaker boundaries - equal to my main system. Depth is there but not like my main system. Bass is deeper and tighter, mids are clearer and highs crisper. I hear two things on this system that I don't hear with my M100s, 800 and higher powered Onk: far more nuanced microdynamics/detail and more pop in the bass. I'm hearing stuff I've not heard before and it's significant. It's very satisfying emotionally. This tells me even though my Onk is beefy, it's not articulate enough.

I've said before the M5s need a sub for music but I take that back. What they need is good electronics. I don't need that 500 now.

Deb already credited me for the 500. Yahoooo! I'll put the money towards active speakers when available.

Nice that you can put the money toward an active system, but I'm surprised it made that much of a difference. I've been thinking of going with a preamp-processor again when I do my next big round of upgrades. I had an Integra at one point, but I've been through a couple of Onkyo receivers since then before settling on a Marantz, though this one was always intended to be temporary, too. I'm leaning hard toward the Anthem AVM 60, just based on how much people on here have loved the equivalent receivers, with Nick really loving ARC. Ian has me sold on trading up to active LFRs when they're released, so I'll get whatever amps he recommends matching to them, and use the amps I already have for the remaining speakers, which means adding an extra channel to the ADA1500 to power the center speaker.

You are surprised and I am shocked. All these years we've been telling each other all electronics are the same, as long as their power is rated equally and frequency response is flat then they all sound the same blah blah blah. That may be true for v2 speakers but not v4. V4 is so well designed that you can hear the difference between an electronics engineering team that designed for functionality only vs. functionality AND performance. And you don't need golden ears.

Axiom still says on all their product pages that all you need is an onk or yammie to drive their speakers. While that's true, I think their customers are better served being told that a heightened listening experience can only be achieved by allowing v4 to reach full potential through high fidelity, pristine electronics.

BTW, Anthem is a great choice for well-engineered gear. I've looked into their people and what they're doing and I am impressed.

The worst part of all of this is that I'll have to drop my Spotify Premium and go with Tidal. I have a Pioneer D6 CD player and I've been comparing Spotify against CDs and there are definitely differences. I can't hear these differences with my PS3 and Onk.

I can definitely hear the difference between FLAC streamed from my PC and Spotify Premium on most speakers/headphones, but more so on v4s.

I think you're also younger than me so your ears and likely brain are both better.

I've been listening to Tidal master level quality. I can't hear a difference on every song. Those I consider to be HQ recordings come in with more depth and width. The bass is also oh so slightly more nuanced.

I've absolutely been addicted to listening to sax and brass on the v4. The M5s are so amazing upstairs and then I go downstairs and remind myself that even though the M5s are 99% of the way there, that 1% from the M100s is so difficult to accept as a want rather than a need.

I have never believed this and was vocal in my early days on this forum (2002ish). It was not popular then to believe that only speakers made the difference. I had several forum members listen to my systems in various configurations (inexpensive source, inexpensive amp, super expensive speakers ranging to expensive source and amp and inexpensive speakers) and to a person the consensus was invest in source and electronics first. I know this is not a popular direction on a board hosted by a speaker mfg'er, but I have known Ian (albeit somewhat remotely) since 1990ish...and he has never censored me!! LOL!

Just to add names to devices, the most satisfying devices tended to be the YBA amps, Totem Mani 2 and Reference 3a Suprema speakers and the Linn turntable or Linn CD player. When I used the Axioms I had at the time - AX3 - they were incredible when driven/fed properly.

Axiom has always provided great value for the audio $$ and have been the only speakers that have stayed with me since purchase in 1989. The AX3's were dropped off for trade in during the 30th anniversary party (replaced with M80's) and I have expanded the fleet (VP160, QS8's and dual EP350's) and they still put a smile on my face daily!

I may be just a dumb electrical engineer who assumed audio gear is designed with the same thought and care as the industrial control products I've worked on. I suppose in audio no one is gonna sue if it sounds bad as opposed to controls which can kill people. There are no regulatory bodies either.

I'm pretty bitter today. The Onk/M100/800 combo in my main room that I've loved so much sounds like crap compared to the M5/pioneer sx-a9-j in my living room. It never ends. I need a more pristine signal path from my sources to my speakers ):

I also bid Spotify Premium goodbye today in favor of Tidal Hi-Fi. I'm looking forward to trying MQA out.

Cool findings Mo.
It's entertaining how when you let people know you can hear such differences they usually go totally there can't be a difference.

Sadly now Pioneer is part of Onkyo so the difference may no longer be.
Personally I think the electronics and shielding of cables are the most important for my situation.
Have you seen the new Cambridge and Adcom big boys. Really expensive but sound like severe muscle.

I'm not the only one who can hear it. One of my friends came over for breaky yesterday. As soon as she walked in, she asked me why the M5s sound so different. Then I pointed to the Pioneer on the floor vs the de-commisioned Denon on the counter. As she was listening she said it's clearer, more crisp, wider, more pop, images better defined and they're deeper on the stage. BTW, I taught her what to listen for and the vocabulary.

Thanks. I'll have to check those bad boys out.

Electronics and computer systems engineer here!


Consumer electronics is a cut throat business and compromises have to be made to hit price points. The majority of the consumers in the audio business want cheap and function rich, which explains HTIB. You are correct on the lack of governing bodies and standards

Someone said hearing the differences are like spotting the ding in a car door. You may need certain light to see it, but once you do you cant unsee it....

It is at this point I would suggest you go rent a pro amp. Long and mcquade rents yorkville ap4k amps. Try one...... be careful.

Its not a hifi amp, but varying the gain vs preamp level in will show you how an amps soundstage can change when even compared with itself. They arent the same at all.

Plus it is literally a bottomless pit of power. The only reason I didnt buy one is the low level hiss when no signal is input. In my quiet room it bugged me. A great amp for subs though..... like 2 custom 15s..... Mwa ha ha.

You've mentioned this before and I'm glad you reminded me. I don't like going to 58th because it'difficult getting in and out of there but I think I'll have to. I'm also finding the pioneer is giving me a greater sense of darkness between the images. I don't know how all this works frankly. I don't understand how images are formed behind my v4 and how they are layered and well defined. Our brains hallucinate reality.

Plus be careful with the connection from a Pro Amp. I've got a Crest Audio power Amp. 450watts stereo 900 bridged. which needs 1/4 TRS connection the damn thing picks up every ground issue. My previous AVR was also Pro{Teac pro}
Tried connecting it to my current setup Anthem MRX720 for rear heights {ATMOS}.
Instant buzz, Mind you that's with my ADA1250 {front3}connected as well.

I've found a tune recorded in the 70s where the drums are so far back, they're outside my living room window. I connected the Denon up and I can't get that kind of depth. It's also fuzzier and muddier.

Brendo, what's the imaging like with your different amps and the Anthem?

The ARC in the Anthem is wonderous.
With the Pro Amp. was great all the depth and clean power. The M80 V.4 can take gobs. Except the fan on some pro amps. can be nasty. Mine is like 40/45 Db. In the prime seat.

The ADA doesn't have a fan, I've got a 3 channel so I think it has 400 watts{ADA1250}. Which is 50 less than the pro. Truthfully I haven't compared them in a while, due to the fan. And the depth I can get through my VP160. on the 3rd channel. Really nice full bodied lows. usually crossed at 50hz. without any hesitations. Same with my M80s 50/60hz.

Power wise I've never had any slight with either Amp. Can crank it to plus 10 go outside an listen while gardening. Or even blazing to listen to that neat Indian Jazz group you mentioned on the what you listening to thread. Just clean at any volume desired. A must try. All the quiet passages on classical and even Roger Waters that need -20 to be heard come through crystal clear, sometimes unexpected. and the loud ones have lots to be revealed at volume. Beware those M100 must be a dream with real Amperage. Just a massive beautiful detailed wall of coolness. I've never heard that cymbal or snare whack so cleanly, even movie dialogue in the background. was normal the fist couple years.

Brendo, I'm starting to question everything I thought I knew or experienced about audio. You say ARC is wonderful and I swore I'd never buy another prepro without some sort of room correction. But after I replaced my Denon with the Pioneer, I no longer need room correction in my living room. I no longer need port plugs on my M5s or a sub. I mean, how the hell do you explain that?

Now let me tell you the stupid thing I did today. I have an amp kicking around here that shall go nameless to protect the guilty (the amp doesn't meet spec). I connected it to the preouts of the pioneer and turned it on at low gain. I turned it up some more and noticed the sound was noticeably fuller than the amp stage of the pioneer. I kept turning it up and up and up and up...until it went into protection mode. My point is, I kept turning it up and my ears weren't hurting and it sounded really full. I have to give the pioneer a lot of credit because it doesn't hurt my ears when I turn it up - unlike the Onk and Denon - but this was at another level altogether.

So now I have another problem with these darned M5s. They are so fantastic, they need excellent electronics to allow them to play at their full potential. I thought I had that beat in my 2 channel system with my pioneer but alas...while the preamp section appears to be pretty darned good, the power amp stage could be noticeably better.

Now I need a terrific power amp for my 2 channel.

Edit: I'll wait for the active M5s and trade in my current M5s.

If I end up with the Anthem, it will be fun to play around with, but I'm thinking I may end up doing what I do with Audyssey, which is to use it to set distances, then manually set everything else. It sounds like you have a lot more control over what corrections you want to apply, though, which could be a helpful/dangerous rabbit hole to go down. I imagine I wouldn't want to apply any corrections to the LFRs because of what weirdness the dispersion pattern might create. But besides ARC, the AVM 60 seems like the total package in features I want. I'll put that upgrade off as long as I can, though, just in case they start talking about dropping a new model. I'll work on the other pieces first.

One of my lady friends is over. She knows nothing about audio but is learning. She hears a difference with the outboard amp in my 2 channel system that she describes as fuller, broader and more balanced. So it's not just me who hears the difference.

Careful,
An AVRs bloated power rating, doesn't compare to the power of a real Amp. Heck most AVRs weigh less than your typical 2 channel Amp. Of proper power.


As for room correction both A.R.C. and Dirac are what to go for at the moment. Dirac supposedly has more custom settings or needs more REW type experience.
Where as A.R.C. you can run and leave with great success. Mind you if you'd like to go REW with A.R.C. you can easily access any part of settings you'd like.

Brendo, you're right. I'll tell you on well-recorded music, the peaks from instruments like kick drums can be immense. In my case for example, the M5HPs in my living room can take it but the ADA-1000-2 can't dish it out. The more I give them, the more they smile and say "Gimme more!" So I'm going with an ADA-1500-2. I love Ian. And Andrew for fulfilling Ian's dreams. LOL!

Lol

I'm gonna do it, Blair. Real close now. I may even get two 1500-2 and bridge each one for 1200W of glorious power into each of my M100s. I can see drivers and dustcaps and voice coils launching throughout my house as I go out in a euphonious blaze of auditory glory!

Wow two bridged!!!
You could easily run them full range, with that much power.

Probably totally awesome. Shake your house down from the core.

New bucket list item.
Line 2.

When we tell you not to toe in your speakers that's not for acoustics, it's to keep you out of the line of fire.

You fellas are so wise.

I was reading on these boards and others for years how outboard amps are a must. I couldn't understand why because my system was just dandy loud enough with my receiver. I could keep turning my receiver up and up and up until it was hard on the ears due to the harsh highs. I thought the harsh highs represented the amp limit.

Was I ever wrong! I see now how my Onk and my mid-grade audiophile (?) Pioneer receivers differ by listening and also looking under both hoods. The Pioneer, right up to the point where it self-protects, allows for all the dynamics to come through. The Onk starts limiting those dynamics from a very low gain but rather than telling you it does by self-protecting, it soft-clips. You think you're getting all the original content but you're not. The big reason for the increased dynamic range of the Pioneer is 4x24,000uF caps in each power supply - there are two independent power supplies, one for each channel, each with its own toroidal transformer and cap bank. This is of course very similar to what Axiom does with its amps.

Now I know I need gobs of clean, powerful amplification. While the Pioneer is great for what it is, 55W per channel and those large caps still doesn't cut it for my M5 living room system. I also need amplification for my M100, 160 and QS10 in my main space.

What do you all recommend for 2 channel and 5 channel amplification?

Popular at the moment is the new Monolith line from monoprice. Comparable to Outlaw, Emotiva etc. Rave reviews all around

No Idea how those would compare to the ADA line up. In terms of real power disclosure, though they seem realistic 200 Watts common rated.

Thanks. I'm very interested in dynamic (transient) specs...not often given.

As I've said to Ian in the past, I need a 20W amp with 8,000W dynamic capability.

Clamping force.
Overkill.
Inexpensive.
Lol.

I am looking at the Monilith too. Heard nothing but good things except for it can get a little warm and just make sure there is proper ventilation.

According to AudioHolics testing, it actually pushes more than what it is rated.

Continuous 2channel
221watts at 1% 212watts at .1% into 8ohm
356watts at 1% 335watts at .1% into 4ohm

Dynamic 2channel
284watts at 1% into 8ohm
521watts at 1% into 4ohm

Distortion rated exceedingly low.

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/monoprice-monolith-7-channel-amplifier-review/3

Given the fact this is built in US by ATI and can be had for like $850 (2channel) during BlackFriday plus a 5yr warranty, it is a steal.

MonoPrice is changing the game with their Monolith series. Their subs, especially 15in, receive phenomal reviews for their price. I have dealt with MonoPrice for over 15years and their service has been exceptional when I’ve had any issues.

Either way, it is an exciting time to be an audiophile with what is available to us in regard to quality from various manufacturers at relatively low pricing. VERY Interested to see the Axiom active line and the future of home audio in general. The future of Wireless power would make active speaker placement a lot easier too :P. I can only imagine how my grandkids I don’t even have will be living in the future!

Don't really have much to add but I've heard the Monolith is very well rated. I added an Emotiva (Gen2) 5 channel a couple of years back which has served me flawlessly as well as a Monoprice "No Logo" 2 channel amp I purchased maybe 3-4 yrs ago. I don't believe Monoprice sells this particular amp anymore which is too bad. I took what I thought was a chance on a single unit, but in hindsight I wish I'd bought a couple more...235 watts per channel for $177! Adding outboard amps to my system really seemed to give the bottom end, I don't know, more weight?

Less distortion

Another selection without as much power is NAD.50 watts I think. Have been scoping their 4 channel power Amp. for a while can be had for under a thousand new, think it's 4020 or 4010 model. Probably awesome for surround duties. Being typical power for those speakers.
My MRX720 pushes 60 for the rears which has no problem with my QS10s.

The NAD units have tested very well in dyno tests. They are typically conservatively rated. Sometimes by 50%.

They list dynamic power in their spec sheets as well as ordinary FTC. The new units are Hypex based. Pretty cool stuff.

You guys will not want to hear what I've discovered with my Onk multi-channel receiver vs my Pioneer stereo mid-grade audiophile receiver.

With my Onk, I don't have more than 10dB of dynamic range at less than a watt per channel in stereo. At a louder volume level of 6W per channel, I have no more than 3dB of dynamic range.

This is in stark contrast to the Pioneer that has at least 20dB of range.

Even though the Onk can dump over 170W into each channel in steady-state, dynamically it's a eunuch!

Now I question where this limiting is taking place. Is it at the last amplifier stage or at the pre-amp?

This is ridiculous. The industry needs standards to protect consumers.

Thanks for the input so far. 55W per channel won't cut it for my stereo setup and it certainly won't cut it for my main space.

I replaced the Onk with the Pioneer and wow! The M100s just came to life. Better everything. I don't need the 800 any more for music. You can hear and see the grip of the Pioneer on those M100s. Just like when I replaced the Denon in the living room, I no longer need Audyssey.

Ian is sending me an ADA-1000-3 and an ADA-1500-3. We'll see what difference those make.

Oh, cool. For some reason I thought you already had an ADA to try.

A couple of excellent - and very expensive - options are Simaudio's Moon amplifiers and YBA amplifiers.

Thanks. As I read the info on the Moon site, I am reminded of how difficult it is to produce a "high quality" amplifier particularly with large output. Back in the early 2000s, I was involved with building 6 channel amplifiers (3 voltage, 3 current) from 10Hz to 500Hz output. We had a hell of a time with just about everything. Vibration - check. S/N - check. Connection integrity throughout the entire system - check. Gain consistency across all channels, power levels and frequencies - check. Meeting safety and environmental regulations - check. Production integrity/repeatability - check. Fast forward to now and it appears to me the same concerns surface in audio.

Incidentally those amps sold for $60K a piece. I can't afford that. I'm also getting completely drained from all the research I have to do just to figure out what the hell I need. For example, is 105dB of S/N practically better than 100dB and why? Is there a standard way of measuring these types of quantities across manufacturers?

So many questions!

Perhaps you are over thinking this...from one engineer to another, spend your time enjoying the sound and not the hardware.

I was living with Boses and I thought they were the cat's ass. Then I moved to v2 and knew that Bose was an ugly mirage. Then the move to v4 caused me to question reality. Now I question everything in audio including my AC outlet!

I want practically good sound - not hardware to show off. So, like some other engineers, I need to know what specs lead to practically good sound and no more. And then I need the data that those specs are being met. Or at least I want to know what I am giving up and how much difference that makes.

As my son is finding out, it's either a joy or it sucks to be an engineer depending on your point of view. Nature, and our role in it, looks different to some of us engineers.

Of course, there are personal bias variables that specs will never be able to account for. Some people actually like distortion and noise, otherwise, who would buy that Finnish death metal stuff?

I also find I'm usually happy with what I've got until I hear something profoundly better. Following this thread isn't helping me stay happy with what I've got and would explain why I have a pair of M100s sitting in my cart waiting for me to pull the trigger (I'm heading up to Dwight on March 2nd..., may be coming home heavier than I when I left.). Of course, my 50wpc NAD is not likely to survive this speaker upgrade either!

However, I'm cheap enough to know a McIntosh/Moon/Classé amp will never see the inside of my home unless I win the lottery.

I want my distortion and noise to be what the recording engineer intended and not what a vendor built because they don't even know what they don't know. This is actually the biggest problem in engineering. Anyone can design to a requirement. Knowing what requirement to design to - THAT is the biggest problem in any domain. That's the research part. The part where science is done.

I used to think 55W a channel was plenty. The old timers here know me as the guy who thought a half watt was enough. But then the v4 came and I started to see instruments on a stage behind the v4 with space between them. I could see the potential. So I turned it up. And it sounded good. It sounded live! Then I put the pioneer into my M5 2-channel set up. And it was a revelation. Then I played Hit the Road Jack by Renee Olstead. And I turned it up and up and up...then the drum...followed by silence... because my pioneer shut down. So I did it again and realized that must be a peak and it brought the pioneer to its knees. I ran downstairs and played it on the M100/Onk and no matter how far I tuned up the gain, it would not shut down but it got offensive. Then I paid attention. There was a definite difference in the sound between the pioneer and the Onk. The Onk was flat...no dynamics. So I wanted to do some science and pulled out the SPL meter. I was getting a 20dB peak on my pioneer setup but only 10dB on the Onk. I thought "It's those damned multi-driver M100s that can't keep up". So out comes the multi-meter and sure enough the pioneer is being driven to its rails (likely beyond but my meter isn't a lab instrument) during the peak but the Onk's voltage is well below its rails but not representative of the peak at all. So the Onk is too slow to follow the transient or it's being artificially limited. I paired up the pioneer with the M100 and bang - instant dynamics! BTW, the dynamics in that tune are better preserved on Tidal rather than Spotify.

So I don't know if your NAD will be good enough. But if you buy a v4, you might start a long journey that may take a long time to reach a final destination or worse because you may never get there.

There is a guy on youtube that amp dynos a lot of products. A pretty fun channel to follow.

He has tested 2 older Nad amps. Both pretty much doubled their rated output and had quadruple their rating in dynamic power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA582cvAfjA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK7xss_IcSg

That being said they are built to a price like anything else. If you really don't want to wonder I would say go ahead and buy the Axiom amp.

Posted those up for TDIPablo. Dont throw in the towel yet!

Thanks for the vids. I don't know about those Axiom amps. Is their S/N ratio good enough? And are the channel gains constant enough across frequency and signal level to preserve imaging? What about transient response and DC off-set? Life used to be so easy with the crystal radio I built in grade 7. LOL!

My NAD has served me well but it's one of these L53 models that has an integrated CD/DVD player that no longer works. I only use it to power my 2 Totem Hawks that I'm contemplating upgrading to the M100's. The only source I use is a Sonos Connect module playing FLAC files or Spotify.

The more I think about it now, the more I think the issue may actually be the receiver as the Hawks should be sounding quite a bit fuller than they actually are. Hmmm.... I still have time before I head up to Dwight to test the Hawks using a new amp.

It would be very interesting to compare the Hawks against the M100s. I expect the M100s will have higher dynamic capability but what would interest me more, is the so-called holographic imaging. I have the Dreamcatchers circa 2009 and when I stacked them up against the M3v4, I was very surprised to discover I liked the M3 much better in all ways including the holographic imaging that my Dreamcatchers totally lack. I wasn't the only one who felt this way.

The newer generation Dreamcatchers may very well offer holographic imaging. This is a very interesting topic actually. It appears to me, as an industry outsider looking in, advances have been made in the understanding of the family of curves and this must be general industry knowledge because many vendors are now claiming holographic imaging.

Be careful with your Hawk's woofer. My Dreamcatcher's woofer is toast and I can't get help from Totem or their dealer. This is a stark contrast to the blown tweeter I had in 2011. I was promptly sent a new one no charge. It's also a stark contrast to Axiom that has been right on top of any problems I've experienced.

Not trying to put Ian on the spot, but maybe you could take your Totems up to Dwight with you an compare them directly to the 100's.

I thought of that but with all the gear I'm bringing up to the cottage, I won't be able to bring back the Hawks and the M100's if I choose to take them (and I don't want to trade in the Hawks, they would move to the office). It shouldn't be hard to do an initial test of the Hawks using my Sonos Connect:Amp that's in the same room (powering the Kitchen and Dining room ceiling speakers). It's also rated at 50wpc so I should quickly see if the NAD is the culprit and underperforming. I can also bring up my Onkyo from the basement if I want to try them with even more power. Yikes, I think I'm talking myself out of the M100's and into simply picking up a powerful 2-channel amp. If the sound still leaves me wanting after that, then maybe I'll reconsider the M100's.

I have set up a sonos connect setup for a job. Not really a great dynamic amp at all. More of a serviceable choice than a performer.

I can confirm this. The Sonos Connect:Amp does a great job powering the ceiling speakers in the Kitchen and Dining room but actually produced inferior results when trying to power the Hawks. The female vocals were especially bad. I'm wondering if I'm having tweeter issues now. Tonight I'll bring up the Onkyo and try that out. Process of elimination I guess. It may very well be the speakers

Time for an update.

As you all know, I had a Chromecast Audio connected to a 17-year old Denon which wass connected to the M5s. I liked it. Then I decided to try out my Pioneer 2-channel receiver (dual mono construction) in place of the Denon. As I reported above, it was a revelation. Then I ran the Pioneer's pre-outs through an outboard amp which has twice the voltage gain of the Pioneer and it sounded even better. I think the only reason it sounds better is because it can get louder. The amp doesn't add anything else. Even the transient response appears to be the same between just the Pioneer and the Pioneer mated to the external amp.

Fast forward to today. I decided to take the Pioneer out of the picture and connect my Chromecast audio directly to the external amp. Would you believe I like it better with the Pioneer in the picture?

I thought "This doesn't make any sense". So I connected the Pioneer downstream of my Onk to feed my M100s. The Chromecast is connected to my Onk. Wow! It gave life to the M100s compared to just the Onk. That made me even more puzzled because why should it be better? If the Onk's crummy pre-amp is feeding it garbage, garbage should be coming out.

So I then connected the Chromecast Audio to the Pioneer. In other words, I took the Onk out. Now even better! The dynamics improved and so did everything else. I then connected the external amp and got the same results as the M5 system. Louder but not better in any other way.

So I suspected the Pioneer was "coloring the sound" in a good sort of way. I looked up the model and saw in the description it was tuned by Air Studios. I had no idea what that was all about. Apparently this is some place in the UK that tunes audio equipment to make it sound better???

I think this explains what I am hearing. No doubt the Pioneer is superior to the Denon and the Onk in many ways and hence I am hearing more dynamic range and improved everything. Part of it though is the receiver is not "flat" throughout the audio band. The M5 and M100 woofers are being worked more with the Pioneer. More so than with the external amp which has twice the voltage gain of the Pioneer! Other things are different also. I think there's less weight to the upper bass/lower mid-range resulting in a more transparent sound.

Given all this, I am starting to think some receivers and maybe even amps and pre-amps do sound different relative to each other because some manufacturers choose to embed their own sonic signature into the amp. This is actually no different than speakers. It's well known that speaker manufacturers select different weighting factors when interpreting the parametric curves for their speakers. This results in speakers which are borne of the same methodology but sound different because Joe believes his coefficients are superior to Bob's.

We're all being toyed with. We're all part of a big experiment.

I guess that is why there is a whole industry building DAC's, each of which "colours" the sound by it's processing of the digital signal to analogue.

What happens to the sound Mojo when you play "direct" through the Onkyo vs the Pioneer. In theory, "direct" is supposed to bypass any signal processing and play exactly what the engineer encoded but again, the signal still needs to be converted from digital to analogue somewhere.

Last night I brought up the Onkyo from the basement (holy crap I have a lot of things plugged into it! Had to make sure everything was properly labeled to make it easier to put back in!) to test if "more power" affects the Hawks. Well, to my relief, the Hawks that I remembered came back to life. Clearly something has happened to the NAD (which I already suspected as the CD/DVD player wasn't working). So, time to peruse Canuck Audio Mart for some exotic 2-channel equipment that I can afford.

Hmmm....any good speaker will NOT colour the sound, just reproduce what the recording engineer intended, should we not hold amps to the same standard, if indeed they are somehow "voicing" them?

If that were true, all $10k+ speaker pairs should sound the same when fed a signal from the same source equipment. They simply don't based on their engineering.

Judging by the wide range of opinions and reviews of amps, there is never a true consensus of which one is the best. Everyone's ears are different and therefore preferences are biased. Like I said, there is no reason to like high distortion and Finnish death metal bands, yet, there is a market for it. I know I have a preference for mid's over high's. My son, it's all about the bass, no treble.

Adrian, every speaker, good or bad, will color the sound. It's impossible using current technology to achieve a ruler flat response. Some speaker companies intentionally add emphasis or de-emphasize specific bands. Others choose to produce as flat a response as possible but even this approach has limitations.

Pablo, I tried direct and otherwise with the Denon, Pioneer and Onk. Neither the Denon or the Onk could reproduce the dynamics like the Pioneer and transient response was much better with the Pioneer regardless of setting. As for the sound, even on direct, the Pioneer sounded different, as I described, compared to the Denon and the Onk. The Denon and Onk sounded the same on direct with the exception that the Onk can go louder.

Yes, all speakers sound different due to any number of variables, but the "goal" is (for most serious audio manufacturers anyway) to make a violin sound like a violin (Paul Barton?), piano like a piano, recording like the engineer intended ect. In other words neutral. I'm not saying anyone has built a speaker that someone could not tell the difference between a live cellist vs the same through a speaker (THAT would be an interesting double blind test), only that they should be trying to get as close to that presentation as possible without colouration. So should amp designers, if in fact they are able to colour them.

If people like a different sound, they can tinker with their settings, otherwise better to start as close to uncoloured as poss imo.

My sensible brain agrees. Then I listen to the Pioneer and exclaim "I like that (coloration)!".

Who is right? The fella who likes to sit up close to his fronts so he can hear an intimate presentation from his speakers or the fella who likes to sit well back and take in how his room colors the sound?

They are both right.
Some people may only know a colouration while others have been lucky enough to hear without. Even a venue has colourations {Eg. A small venue vs. a large hall or arena.}
Someone who has been to a lot of venues and only knows an H.T.I.B. or all in one system. May only know a colouration.

Hopefully we can manage reaching enough power without maxing out to soon. And of course get decent systems vs all in ones.

Indeed! In another decade, these big speakers and high power amps, and all the problems associated with them, may go the way of the gramophone. I was reading in IEEE Spectrum magazine how companies are working on taking custom measurements of listeners' ears and developing personalized head-related transfer functions. These can then be used to create virtual images within headphones that will mirror real life. We'll be wearing Atmos+++ on our heads!

Black Mirror style! The grain. Dangerous stuff

I took the Onk apart earlier today, removed the power supply capacitors and tested them in an RC circuit with my buddy's signal generator and scope. Even with the tolerance factored in, they were all way low. I replaced them with Nichicon caps I tested and bought from my buddy. The Onk mated to my M100s now exceeds the peak reached by the Pioneer/M5 pairing! That's because the Pioneer is hitting its limits.

Besides the peaks, it sounds a lot better. I still like the sound of the Pioneer better but that's because Air Studios fudged with it. I'm now toying with the idea of getting Electronic Craftsmen to build me a toroidal transformer for the Onk.

Can't wait to get the ADAs in here!

Update on the M5/Pioneer/Chromecast Audio/external amp system in the living room:

I've been listening with what Pioneer calls the Sound Retriever mode. This system offers much higher fidelity than my Onk/M100/800 system in my main space. It can't beat the wide and deep soundstage and image holography of my main system though and I attribute that to the room, the distance between the speakers, the distance to the walls, the distance to the MLP and Audyssey XT32.

In Lee Ritenour's Pappa was a Rolling Stone, I can hear every bass note including all the microdynamics. You don't need a golden ear to hear how much better the living room system is with dynamics compared to the bigger and more expensive system. I don't have a sub in the living room system. Everything is better frankly except for the soundstage and imaging as I described above. The holography is still there but it's not nearly as pronounced. Maybe with better electronics in the main system, those images behind the M100s would be even more eerie!

Recall I started with a 17 year old low end Denon and I was very happy with that. Now I am elated. The more I give the M5s, the better they sound. Others have reported this too. And that's really the only downside to the M5s - sensitivity. These speakers are already floor-standing speaker killers; I can't imagine how much better they'd be with an 8" woofer like the Braxiom Mini-T or maybe even a 10" woofer...LOL!

I can't wait to give them a full helping of the ADA-1500.

Will a Toroidal fit in the Chassis.
Plus I thought the 818 or any Onker past the 7 series was THX certified.
That modification would make it more Integra.

When I got my Tascam PA-R200. Was super stoked 7.2 THX/Toroidal. Later found out was actually a Onkyo/Integra 30.4. Direct clone manual and all Just different faceplates. Made for Teac/Tascam in the Integra factory. Very short run 2013/2014. My M80 V.4 got it really warm.

Funny they've just released a tape deck {Tascam} nostalgia everywhere Vinyl and tapes on a come back.

Electronic Craftsmen may be able to make one that fits but mounting it would be a challenge. The transformer is mounted on the front panel and it has some sort of floating vibration absorption. I cringe at the thought of having to do that surgery.

I have no idea how Onkyo managed to hit that price point with my receiver. Their unit profit must be paltry. Every channel has a discrete amp module. Heat sinking is well done and they put a lot of thought into that chassis. The transformer is a wee beast.

Yes, it's THX-certified but I don't know what that means. Where can I find the certification tests?

Supposedly THX certification should have ability to fill 2000 plus rooms with ease. So should have some similar transformer already, maybe not proper toroidal.


Have seen videos of people taking out their toroidal transformers and adding isolation and such under. As long as it's similar size shouldn't be to hard of surgery.

THX apparently covers 2000 cu. ft. and 10 foot distance from the mains. THX Ultra2 is for 3000 cu.ft. rooms and 12 foot distance from the mains.

Maybe that's why my last AVR got so hot. Was THX select2, my seating is about 13/14ft? Typically Onkyo are rated 6 Ohm as opposed to 4 in North America though. I always thought that was reason for the heat. Maybe I was pushing it to hard with my distance?

Adequate ventilation?

Get yourself an Aircom T9 and cool that sucker. Great little units, I bought three of them, and none of my electronics get any hotter than 85F where I have my low setting.

I second the Aircom T9 recommendation. I got one to cool my Onkyo when upgrading to the VP180 4-ohm beast. Without the Aircom, the Onkyo can easily reach 120F during action movies. The Aircom can maintain temp at 85F on low and 80F on high (though you can hear it during silent portions of the movie).

I purchased a few Thermaltake USB powered devices and agree with the cooling need for devices. They are quiet, versatile, powerful and cheap..a necessity for closed spaces and devices that can run hot.

Those Aircom units look pretty decent. Neat how they cover the whole top of an AVR.
For the last couple years I've used a USB dual fan. had it blowing in to the units for a long time. Now use it pulling air from the warmest part of my Anthem. Not a proper Aircom but still effective.

Send the warm air here before I start hibernating.

I wish you all out there could hear my M5/pioneer system in my living room. No matter what I play, no matter how poorly recorded or the genre or decade of the recording, the M5s are completely invisible. Almost everything I play sounds like it's coming from beyond the front wall and the sound extends to the sides almost without bound. The holography is simply outstanding proving you don't need to spend a fortune to get great sound.

What you have to give up though is WAF. I've only been able to achieve this because I've used the 29% rule: the distance from the mid-point of the driver to the side walls is 29% of the room length and the distance from the driver plane to the front wall is 29% of the room width. My M5s are set up along the room length - not width.

My living room is 22' long by 10' wide. My M5s are 6.4' from each side wall and 2.9' from the front wall. This puts the M5s 9' apart.

I then positioned my MLP so that it forms an equilateral triangle with the M5s. That puts me 9' away from each M5 and a little more than a foot away from the back wall.

I then toed in the M5s, by pivoting them while keeping the front fixed, so the tweeters are pointed a foot behind my head. I've used one of Serenity's panels for rear wall absorption.

My living room has been arranged around my speakers and that's just the way I like it. The effect is simply uncanny and that's all that counts.

You might want to try the 29% rule when she's out for "book club".

Never heard of the 29% rule. Cool you found a pleasing ratio in your room.

For anyone tuning in, your takeaway from this should be it doesnt cost a lot of money to get great results, You just gotta work within your means.

DIY treatments and considering how energy behaves is really at the heart of the medium of sound; thats the best way to get there pragmatically. The tough part is integrating it into a functional living space.

No doubt you've heard of the rule of thirds. This rule and the 29% rule are discussed in the section called "monitors" in the article below.

Admittedly I don't have the 2' minimum to my back wall as described in the article. I only have 16". I've had to trim my bass by 6dB as a result. The Pioneer does not have bass management so I can't use a sub to solve this. I may continue to experiment by moving the speakers closer to each other and then moving my MLP closer to increase my distance to the back wall as the article suggests. That may negatively affect the holography though.

I'm also considering removing the wall.

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/monitoring.htm

Definitely take out the darn wall. Just getting in the way of Audio nirvana.

Thanx cool read. Always fun to experiment with different room ratios. Although most are similar, and considering the golden ratio was created in ancient Greece. A different outlook makes minimum room revamp and sometime great results.

For the WAF it's best to have kids around. Play their movies etc. If you get them engaged enough and exited that they're feeling it. Should be enough for the wife to say sure. take up the room.

My kids friends and my siblings never want to leave once they've said. It's better than a theater minus the 3D

Brendo, I've been looking at taking out the wall. The minor problem is, the roof will fall down. I think the solution is to hide a crane in my neighbor's back yard and hitch it to my roof. They won't notice because they're perpetually stoned.

I have found that placing speakers on the narrow wall pointing down the long axis always results in better sound than placing them on the wide wall pointing down the short axis.

Proper placement makes a huge difference.

Congratulations on finding your sweet spot.

Agreed. I think the reasoning for arranging across the shorter dimension is 2-fold: 1. potential for improved bass by locating the speakers further from the front wall and the MLP from the back wall and 2. Improved integration with side-wall reflections.

The problem with my place is whoever architected it 55 years ago, must have had a hate-on for audio. In the living room, setting up along the length is all I could do and for various reasons, it sounds better than along the width.

Between my living room and the basement, I have two different listening environments. Upstairs is intimate and downstairs it's a much larger and spacious sound.

BTW, I can't do what you did at your place, Phil. My speakers and MLP need to be positioned just so because I don't listen casually. I've tried portable speakers for the deck for example and I can't get into it because a) the fidelity is not there and b) I can't position them to evoke the emotion I desire.

The desire itself isn't enough of an emotion for you?

Hee hee, Charles. I think we both share the same affliction of auditory addiction with an Axiom predilection but certainly speaker model confliction.

One of my buddies was listening to my M100s over the weekend and found the soundstage to be too wide. His brain was over-whelmed with the instrument separation. LOL! He sent me a message this morning to say he was listening to the same songs with his KEFs and couldn't hear anything like that. The instruments sounded mixed together rather than nicely separated. He was wondering which presentation was correct. I said whichever you like better. For me, the v4 is superior for my tastes.

Coolness,
Have heard a lot of good regarding most KEF models reviews.

Is the room his KEFs are in much smaller than yours? Maybe to small for similar sound stage?
With all Axiom speakers being reference grade, not overly surprising that your M100s would give more detailed separation of tracks.
With my M80s and a bad recording it's almost like a really lazy Les Paul went and layered tracks together and you can separate them so easily they don't even sound layered anymore.

His room is half the width and 3/4 the length. He's got them smooshed against the side walls and back wall. I've tried placing them in various, impractical positions and have managed to separate instruments along the width somewhat but nowhere the degree that I can with M5s and M100s. I have never been able to get any depth.

Almost every recording sounds good with the M5/Pioneer combo. I can't say that with the M100/Onk combo. The culprit is the Onk because swapping to the Pioneer, I get similar performance as the M5s.

I had a group of Spaniards over earlier this week. They had never heard speakers except in public venues and their TVs. There is much I can say about their surprise and shock as they listened to my main system. The one thing I will never forget is how two of them got up and walked behind the M100s to meet the images that were there. They were shocked to not only discover there were no images from that vantage point but also no drivers in the back either. Being engineers, they wanted to know how this could possibly be. When I told them about the curves and our hearing, some of them clued in and realized how much work it must have taken to make the M100s sound the way they do.

Wahahahahaha! I have 100 lbs of toroids, capacitors and ADA muscle coming. It will be driver-melting mayhem soon!

Congrats, Mojo!

Thanks Charles. How hard should I drive those ADAs?

Uhh... to where you get an emotional response?

That would be all the way! The M5s and M100s are gonna come unglued. I'm gonna ignite the M3s with the 1500 just for shits and giggles. You'll see the smoke trails all the way to your place. I might vaporize the audiobytes too!

They're HERE!

Andrew, you're the MAN! I reported the LED on the ADA-1000 was performing LASIK on my cornea. The LED is now a soothing blue like my Pioneer. Very agile, my remote audio friend. Thank you, thank you!

Bman, there is a fuse on the ADA. It's integrated into the AC socket...on the bottom.

Nice. Looking forward to your thoughts on the 1500 driving M5s!

On the 1500 driving M5s, I am seriously concerned about cranking any more than I have because the M5s might come unglued. Recall my M5 set-up is 2-channel only. That HP woofer, as amazing as it is, might vaporize if I pump more into it. I will say this: Renee Olstead's Hit The Road Jack on the M5s is not shutting down the 1500 but it does shut down the 1000. By that time, the HP woofer is working too hard and could use a sub. My ears wouldn't be able to take that too long either. Now with a sub, the 1000/M5 combo could certainly go further. I haven't tried that yet.

Bman, you should be very happy with the 1000/M5 combo. I very much doubt you need more SPL but if you did, you'd also need more speaker than the M5.

I've come to a rapid conclusion with my living room 2-channel system. My mid-grade audiophile Pioneer is very capable of reaching the SPL I need. Now, if I wanted to open the windows and get the neighborhood rocking, I'd have to use a sub with the M5/1000 combo. Perhaps the M5/sub combo can take even more amp than the 1000 but I don't know that at this point.

One thought I had would be the ADA mated to a Chromecast Audio. Those two alone may be enough for some people. No bass, treble or balance controls but maybe those aren't needed for certain applications.

As for the M100s, I ran them 2-channel with the 1000 and shut it down quite easily long before the Onk's pre-amp was at max. It was the bass peaks on Renee's song that shut the 1000 down. The 1500 was a completely different story. I could not shut it down in 2-channel with Renee's song. I put my ear muffs on and drove the M100s to 113dB peaks at 13 feet away. The peak may of course have been higher because my SPL meter's sampling rate is quite limited. At that point my Onk was cranked and I'm pretty darned sure it couldn't reproduce the peaks. I also suspect I may have been reaching the M100's compression limits.

I consider this "test" very extreme. I didn't measure the voltage at the speaker terminals but I'd easily bet peaks over 2000W. The M100 HP driver dust caps got 14 degrees C above ambient (my room was 16 degrees and the dustcaps got up to 30C). This means the voice coils were even hotter. The 1500 was warm during this test and the electronics started to smell from the heat. Recall this is all 2-channel. With the 800 in the mix, this is likely to change but I haven't tried that yet.

BTW, it appears the ADAs come with a spare fuse. I haven't had to use it but it's a good touch. And thank you again Andrew for taming that blue LED.

Movie and more critical listening is up next. I'm curious to see what difference the ADA makes, if any, when it comes to microdynamics, imaging and soundstage.

We watched 30 Days of Night on BR DTS HD MA with the 1500-3 connected to the M100s and 160. My Onk was at -25 and I didn't feel like I was missing anything. The 1500 performed remarkably well. Transients were sharp, sudden and truly startling. Images and soundstage didn't leave me wanting for anything more.

At -25, I have more than 35dB of headroom. The 1500 is too much amp for me in the living room and it may be too much amp for my 4,200 cu.ft. space. I'll have to compare with the 1000 and more A/V sources and material.

Behold! Mojosteins...v2. JT, feel free to copy these too. :p

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1--Wv1h6Yf2KEJPQV8lNXn5hvY31K02tK

P.S. Slim, you need to upgrade to these.

P.P.S. Axiom builds such nice and fun things that bring joy to crappy Canadian winters!

Whoa! Kinda like a mini T-rex.

I'd say there's a middle T+ and a T-Rex Sr. in them there photos I posted.

Whoa... think you've got enough amplification there ?

One 1500 will drive the M100 portion of the T-Rex Sr. and the two 1000s will drive the M5 and M3 portions. It's gonna be a cataclysm!

I just watched Rampage with the M5/160/1500-3 combo in DTS HD MA. This is 13' away from the M5s, 14' from the 160 and 11' from the side QS10s in my 4200 cu. ft. space. My 800 is crossed over at 80Hz. I had my Onk at -5 in the beginning destruction scene. After that, I dialed it back to -15 because it was just too darned loud.

How loud? That initial scene had over 60dB of dynamic range. The lowest SPL I recorded was 42dBC and the peaks were 107dBC. Recall how far away I was.

The M5s lack nothing and I mean absolutely nothing for movies compared to the M100. The 1500 is a great choice for driving them. I could easily have opened up the 1500 more but my ears could not take it.

I then switched to the 1000-3 and achieved 105dBC peaks (2dB lower than the 1500). Then I switched from the M5 to the M100 and got the 107dB peak back. The M100s were also more visceral.

In conclusion, for movies, the M5/160/QS10/800 with the 1000-3 get me 99% (105/107) of the way there. To get to 100%, I need either the 1500 or the M100s. The M100s also add more oomph. Soundstage is the same all around.

Now here's a surprise. I also tried the M3v4 with the 1000. No problem getting to 107dB! In fact, I watched the rest of the movie with the M3 and felt like I missed absolutely nothing. And the M3 was on the floor like one of my pictures in the link above. What's simply amazing is that I can leave the M3s on the floor, listen to music and not much changes with the imaging and soundstage!

Music is a different story however between the M3, M5 and M100 and the 1000 and 1500. More on that later.

That's amazing! Sounds like the published specs on the 1000-3 are extremely conservative. It would be difficult for me to justify stepping up from my M5/180/1000-3 combo in a <2,500 cuft space, especially with the 180 doing the heavy lifting in movies. The only downside on the 1000-3 is the lack of XLR inputs, but I'm not sure that they're really necessary for 3-ft interconnect runs.

I had a chance to watch a bit of Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse (4K Bluray w/Atmos), and it sounded phenomenal. For me, -10 was quite loud, and -15 was comfortable.

I also listened to a bit of Miles Davis' Kind Of Blue (Legacy Edition, FLAC) and found it hard to tear myself away to go back to work. I've tended to stay away from upmixing modes for music listening, but the effect of all 11 speakers working together in Dolby Surround (Pro Logic on steroids) is pretty incredible. Closing my eyes, it was easy to forget that I wasn't listening to live music.

Yes, I think you've chosen very well for your system in your smaller space and closer listening distance. I eventually had to turn Rampage down to -20 BTW. Even -15 was too loud.

No need to worry about XLR inputs.

Alright, so I played my M100s full band along with the 800. Normally they are crossed at 80Hz. I tried the ADA-1000 and the 1500. I turned my Onk up to 0 with Renee Olstead's Hit the Road Jack on Tidal HD. This song is absolute torture in a couple of spots and shuts my Pioneer and 1000 down long before my ears give out when played with the power hungry M5s. With the M100, at 0 on my Onk, the 1000 doesn't shut down but it's definitely losing control of the low end. When I switch in the 1500, it's all wonderful and nicely controlled.

At +5 on the Onk, the 1500/M100 pair sounds controlled and VERY visceral. By +3, the 1000's right channel self-protects. With the M5 switched in, the 1000 shuts down its right channel at about -3 (even with an 80Hz cross-over). The M5 keeps going with the 1500 all the way to +5 but the M5 doesn't sound too pretty (even with an 80Hz cross-over). The low end gets pretty wobbly and the high end is shrill. I am sure the M5 can take more punishment from the 1500 but what's the point if it's misbehaving.

To give you an idea of how loud all this is, recall I am 13 ft away in a 4200 cu ft room. At +5, the 100/1500 pair is at 112.5dBC peak, fast-sampled. At 0, the same pair is 107dBC. I'll point out again that my meter may be missing the true peaks.

0 is tolerable but +5 is not only intolerable; it is INSANE!

P.S. An interesting point is that song peaks lower on Spotify Premium. It's like the true peaks are missing on Spotify.

I got about 2 hrs of sleep last night. I couldn't pull myself away from the M100s. I listened to Kind of Blue bman. Some of those tracks many times over. I could see them lined up across and into the stage. Amazing!

Don't buy v4. They're like a powerful, addictive drug.

I said above +5 is intolerable and that's true for Renee Olstead's song. This morning I set the M100s to play full range with 800 on (what Onk calls double bass). I listened to Wycliffe Gordon's St. Louis Blues (all three versions) on Spotify and hot damn...I gave that sucker +5 and then a bit more and it shook my innards! Admittedly I can't listen to that level for long...I wish I could...but even at 0 it was marvellous. My Onk just can't retain its composure at 0 gain.

That was 1100 peak Watts on each side and that may be low because my meter may not be responding fast enough. The M100/1500 combo sounded so absolutely composed at that level.

Damn it all! Now I may be getting hooked on that 1500 like I got hooked on the v4s. I really, really hate Axiom! LOL!

https://www.axiomaudio.com/omnidirectional-active-speaker

Oh cool. A 7-position BGC switch! Special pricing on the ADA amps too. Are the ADA-1500 monoblocks bridged?

I found the power limit to my 160v4. I have it crossed over at 40Hz. I was watching Black Summer with the 1500-3 in the mix. The Onk was at +5...LOL! I was pushing a little over 900 peak Watts into it. It's rated for 1000 peak Watts. During those peaks, it sounded a bit squirrelly although any guest at my place would not have noticed. I crossed it over at 80Hz and all was good.

Incidentally, when the planes and gunshots were going on at that +5 gain, it scared the bejeezus out of me and my heart kept skipping beats. I had the M100s on full range. They are normally crossed at 80Hz when driven with my Onk.

Planes and gun shots...I love my speakers...

Yeah! When the apocalypse cometh, we can just break out our gunshot blu-rays and crank her to keep the marauders at bay.

We played around with both bridged and not for the ADA1500 mono-block. In the end we decided on no bridging. All the numerous advantages to a mono-block design exist in both arrangements so it came down to which way would the use of the full dynamic power of the single power supply best be utilized. Bridging greatly increases the continuous power by halving the impedance seen at the amp but it does not change the available dynamic power. Since the continuous power of an ADA1500 is already way above the what would ever be required we decided the stability of the of the overall system would be better by not bridging.

Mojo, protect your hearing ... your most important element to your enjoyment of music.

I hear you, Phil. Barely.

M100s be damned! You all should come over and listen to the M5s in my basement. It don't matter what I use as an amp - the Onk, the 1000, the 1500, the Pioneer - it's all spectacular!! There is absolutely no way, NO WAY, those little beasts should be casting the surreal imaging and soundstage they are. I'm so damned fortunate. I thank the Sonic Gods at Axiom. I think if Ian hears them at my place, he'll double their price.

John was saying he liked his M5s better than his M60s. I think some don't want bookshelves due to stands. Maybe we need an M5HP floor-stander.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pA4_Cltt0HLbMEMnX3VQzWeNrXSwXHWg

Yep, that's what I wanted...

Ian says my version of the M5HP floor-stander would be very low sensitivity and that's why there are two 6.5" woofers in the M50 and M60. The AX5 had a single woofer but it was 10".

In the upward stair step of performance, an M60 HP would be a floorstanding M5HP.

John likes his m5s better than his m60s. The m5s image really well. It's too bad they have the 'nads of a gnat. You know...gnat 'nads.

I like the idea of the M5HP tower with the same internal volume. The bottom would be essentially a built in stand.

Could go the Bryston route and build subs that match and could be used as stands.

I'd still preffer 1 pc but...

There have been many high end audio speakers that have utilized this configuration over the years, Reference 3a Suprema for example

Hmmm...M22s sitting on EP500s. One day I'd like to listen to M22v4.

Alright...here's the deal. My thinking brain has figured the M5HP is 1.6 times as good as the M3v4. This makes the M3 a marginally better value than the M5.

My feeling brain though doesn't want the M3 because it's heard the M5. No matter what the M5 costs, my feeling brain says the M5 is always better than the M3.

Even though the M3 is easier to listen to in my acoustically bright living room, my feeling brain wants the M5.

This constant battle between my thinking and feeling brains will resolve itself once I'm pushing up daisies.

Geez...I'm listening to Wade in the Water by Pete York on Spotify Premium via the M100s and Pioneer A9 and no sub. The Pioneer is at -5 and I'm getting 116dB peaks. Every time those drums hit, it is downright scary and disturbing! The sax, the piano, the cymbals...they all sound so absolutely perfect. I keep praising my M5s but they don't offer the same level of fidelity as the M100s and certainly can't hit this SPL.

I've been watching movies with the M50s for a week now in my main room. I can't say I'm missing anything over the M5s or M100s.

I've been listening to music in 2.1 and it's so difficult to tell the M50 apart from the M5. Brass and sax sound more detailed with the M5 but when I listen with the M50, I don't feel I'm missing anything. Soundstage is the same. Pretty amazing engineering actually.

I should point out this observation is in my main room. As I've said before, there's a big difference between the M5 and M50 in my living room which is very bright. I find the M50s much easier to listen to in that space at the expense of loss of detail which I frankly don't mind.

The M5s are definitely more accurate...higher fidelity...more refined than the M50s. I can hear a lot more detail and air. The soundstage is also wider. Instruments sound more real. Bass is tighter, midrange is clear and the highs are crystal. The M5s are real sweet in my main room compared to the M50.

I'm giving the M5s everything the Onk and ADA-1500 can dish out. I'm measuring 103 peak Volts on each side. That's over 1700 peak Watts. I could use more!

Recall I'm sitting 13 feet away in a 4200 cu. ft. room. The whole experience is crystal clear with an enormous 3D stage.

I received KnuConcept 10AWG cable and Sewell banana plugs from Amazon today. I've been using 16AWG cable from Walmart and dinky plugs I borrowed from my buddy thinking "It's no biggie. It's just an 8 foot run to each speaker." I have 12AWG in my walls that I use for surrounds and my old v2 but since the 1500 came in, I've been using the 16 gauge.

Dummy me! After a listen with the old cables, I switched to the new ones and kapow! Instantly improved bass and clarity throughout the entire range.

After some measurements and calculations, I figure I was losing 50 peak Watts on each old cable. The old cable was dropping almost 3.5 Volts.

Given this large improvement, I'm gonna get me some 0000 cable.

A larger ADA would also help with the M5s. No problem with the M100s though.

hmmm ... sounds off to me ...

8' of copper 16 AWG ... 16' there and back gives us 0.064 ohms
for a 3.5Vrms drop you had to be running just over 54 Amps ...(or if 3.5V is peak then 38Amps rms)

Your cable must have been smokin' @ not 50W but 186 Watts (95W if only 38A)
at least you now know where to lay the new wire ... just follow the burn marks on the floor.

(More likely 3.5V is a bit off ... )

The 16 ga. cable and terminations measured 0.2 Ohms for the entire run. Peak current was 16.8 Amps.

That’s twice what I’d suspect for even 16AWG CCA. You’d have to go to almost 20 AWG to get there (and that’s the cheap CCA only 10% copper) ... the numbers just jumped out to me as being amusing. I’ll believe you ....

Just the picture of you cooking on it while listening to your favorite breakfast music was a good one. A sudden enlightenment to the Mojo volume obsession!

I guess some of the resistance might have been between cable and terminations. Older cable plus smaller contact area etc...

It might be 18 gauge. I can't tell 'cause I was grillin' swine strips on it.

This is what we all need.

http://www.knukonceptz.com/sp/kolossus-fleks-black-40-gauge-powerground-wire/

That's actually much cheaper than Monster Cable!

I'm very happy with the 10 gauge and terminations from Amazon.

Have to double that price; need one length for (+) and another for (-)

Yep. Unless you just buy one length and cut it in half.

Still twice the quoted price/ft

Look...say you buy 10 feet. That's 70 bucks. Now cut that into two, 5 foot lengths. You get two for the price of one! See?

It's hard to argue with you Mojo ...
I don't have to see you to know that amusement is written all over your face

Hee hee...

I want to stress again how much of a difference that 10 ga. cable has made. I not only have tighter, deeper bass, I have a clearer and more impactful midrange.

With my v2, besides a holographic soundstage, I was missing that smack on the drumskin and pop in the mids. V4 fixed all that in a very big and satisfying way. Then adding the ADA-1500 to the mix allowed me to hear the liveliness and expanded soundstage high and clean power brings to the performance. The new cables bring out the smack and pop even more and bass, even though I'm crossed to the 800v4, has a much improved transient response. It sounds as if the M5 drivers accelerate better and stop faster than they did before.

I've also added that cable to the 160. I had zero complaints about the 160, as the M5s, but now the voices are indeed clearer. Even my BFF/FWB commented on it today during Money Heist and she had no idea I switched cables.

I've also added an ADA-1000 to my two QS10s fed with the 12 ga. in my walls. I haven't formed an opinion about that change yet. I have a few scenes in mind that I'll be listening to again to determine if there's a difference over my Onk. I'll also be running some measurements.

So my main room is going to stay as shown below until I upgrade to active M5s. I have the 1500-3 feeding M5s and the 160 and the 1000 feeding two QS10s.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-BTKdCtDPGNSDk1vZJpbepAFBIZUABWl/view?usp=drivesdk

I should also add that since I switched to the new cables, I've been surprised to find that I don't need Audyssey XT32 for 2.1 music. I haven't formed an opinion yet about movies or PLII Music.

Yep, the M100v4 are pretty darned amazing. I'm back to those now in my main room after realizing how bad the M5s distort at high SPLs. The M5s sound so amazing...until they're replaced with the M100s. LOL!

Active M100s are in my future.

Hmmmm...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-BtCqNjx7YqJLAH8Soas6BpHpWdsJYk4/view?usp=drivesdk

HUUUUUUUUUUGE in every way.

We just finished watching Hellboy at reference level (0dB on the Onk). That reference level is at an MLP of 12 feet from the M100s, 14 feet from the 160 and 12 feet from the QS8s. It was ARMAGEDDON with astonishing clarity. The most interesting thing is that I measured the peak voltage at one of the QS8s and with an estimate of the impedance, I calculated just over 260 peak Watts supplied by the ADA-1000. I'm pretty sure my Onk can do that but not if it's also feeding other channels.

I took SPL measurements last night during the opening scenes of Fury Road on BR via the PS3. I recorded 105dBC peaks at -10.5 on the Onk. All sounded tremendously controlled and immersive through the 1500/M100/160, 1000/QS10 and 800.

At -5, the highs started getting squirrely. I turned the 160 off and all was fine. At 0, I was recording 110.5dBC peaks but I could tell I was reaching compression limits.

These levels are at an MLP of 12 feet from the M100s, 14 feet from the 160 and 12 feet from the QS8s.

As I thought about my last post, gut feel told me something wasn't right because I've been able to push the 160 a lot harder.

The PS3 has a volume setting. This setting was cranked to max. I changed it to what Sony calls normal.

Now I hit 105dBC at -5.5 on the Onk. I was able to get to 108dBC without detecting any harshness. That was at -2 on the Onk. Beyond that, I wasn't getting any harshness but it sounded like the only thing getting louder was LFE.