Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Is Class A better than A/B?

"Why are those of you who believe that amps make a difference because they've heard it so sure that the placebo effect doesn't happen?"

How are you so sure that it wasn't the placebo effect and they did hear a difference? I haven't listened to my old Altecs in about two months but I can still remember that they produced low, muddy bass. My M22's produce more tight, accurate bass as well as having pin point imaging. Now I admit that the differences between two quality components or speakers is more subtle than crap and quality gear but I'm sure it can still be heard if you want it to.

The only thing that really bothers me about these forums is that most regulars here don't enter anything with an open mind. If someone hears a difference (whether it be in their head or tangible) then they heard a difference. I don't like how everyone gets all sharp or "you are wrong because I said so". I don't happen to prescribe to the idea that SS amps sound different from one another, but my limited experience hasn't allowed me to do demonstrations between quality amps and my reciever. If I was to hear differences between amps I would change my stance. I pose this question to you scientists. If you were to hear a difference between components(even if it were marginal), would you immediately think you were dillusional because there couldn't be a difference?

In reply to:

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If you were to hear a difference between components(even if it were marginal), would you immediately think you were dillusional because there couldn't be a difference?

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As science requires, you need to verify the results of your experiment. Your results must be repeatable under controlled circumstances. This means other people besides you need to be able to hear it in a blind test. Just knowing what device is in use WILL skew your perceptions. That has been proven time and time again.

And if you can hear a difference, then that difference should be measurable. Like it or not, electronic measuring equipment is MUCH more sensitive than the human ear (and doesn't have a biased brain attached to it).

Either way, he wasn't debating the issue and didn't deserve to be replied to in that manner. Now if he was calling everyone out and saying that electronic meters and testing were bogus, then we have a different matter. If he heard a difference, the guess what guys? He HEARD a difference. It's his money not yours.

Interesting post. I was thinking earlier when I posted that not everone has had the opportunity to audition pieces against one another in controlled enviroments. Or for that matter has everyone had/have access to a great variety of audio equipment.

I also find it interesting - as you point out - that we categorically state there is a difference when listing to speakers, and no difference when it comes to ------- (insert device here). Many of those who proclaim this and that are listening/using certain levels of equipment, and beleive they have the best...and that is great and fine with me. However, I have always approached this hobby with an open mind (once again, as you state), and believe what I hear - or trust what I hear.

There will be people who will cite numerous sources and listening tests. I once particpated in a listening test where all the pieces were behind a curtain, and thus unnamed. The person running it switched between amps, sources and speakers. We simply indentified the products with a number and all kept notes.The limited audience that was onhand ranged from boombox types to serious audiofans. I can state that I could tell differences between low end stuff (Onkyo, JVC) and higher end stuff (YBA, SIMAudio). Not that I thought the higher end products always sounded better - just that I could definitely tell there were differences. For example, expensive Verity and Cain & Cain speakers (multiple thousands of dollars) did not impress me, and I felt the PSB Status sounded better when we tallied the scores and shared thoughts.

Scientific? Not really. Definitive? no. Just sharing an experience.....

Anyway, this type of debate is always going on, whether we are talking $100 products, or $10,000 products. I guess that is what makes it appealling - that there are choices for everyone, based on thoughts, impressions, beliefs, budgets and personal needs.

Funny, I interpreted his post as a throw a glove in your face type challenge to those of us on the, shall we say, scientific side of things. I thought my response was fairly measured. I think it's important to remember that tone of voice is not available as an input in writing...

In answer to your question, yes, I would. I would want to hear it back to back immediately (if that was possible), see if scientific measurements by an independant board indicated differences in the frequency response, etc, and see if someone else heard the same thing I did. If no to any of these questions, it's likely in my head.

johnK: As always I value your experience...ole timer.

wid: Yeah it has only 5 more years of warrantee but I got the itch again. It is also 15 years old..so I figure new technology might be better...but since amp technology has been pretty much mature it doesn't mean the new amps are any better.

Thasp:
As with wires/cable I have come to the conclusion that any standard 12g is good for most people. I compared wires $30(noname) $80 (audioquest) $180 (kimber) $500 (audioquest)and come to the conclusion all sound the same. I had my fiancee do the test and she has perfect hearing based on the last doctors checkup. I have tinitis. Most exotic cables have better covering and insulation and thickness to maybe give it more durability. The only time she noticed a difference is pure silver wires.
Yes my Bryston is 250w@8ohms and 600w@4ohms but my Maggies have clipped the red light 3 times playing a track by Frederick Fennel composing with the Dallas Wind Symphony.


BBIBH:Yes I did notice a difference bettween my Pioneer Elite vs my Bryston since I have it setup on A-B. On all occassions I had people say they noticed better sonic performance using the Bryston vs the Pioneer at the same dB level using the same CDP and same speakers. If anyone is in doubt I welcome anyone to come over and listen for themselves.


kcarlile:my setup does not have that 5 sec gap. It is instantaneous because I have both signals on a pasive preamp with a toggle for A and B. So based on my findings standard Pio, yammys, Denons, NAD and Rotels even did not sound any different...going amps like Bryston, Exposure had seemingly more detail and better headroom when cranking up vs mass market amp/receivers.
Comon now if most people believed all power is the same why is the Pioneer VSX514 @100w is $275 and the Krell KSA 100 @100w is $3895. You think music coming out of that Pioneer would be exactly the same as the Krell since the consesus here deems that power is power so get one in your budget?

I guess I might need to try a Class A amp and with my regular SS A/B amp and see if the difference is only that I can warm up my dinner with the Class A amp.

Perhaps that 100 watt rating is more accurate for the Bryston than the Pioneer. You're also paying for build quality, the nameplate, appearance, warranty, etc. I don't think that price is necessarily comprable to performance. A Corvette will perform better than a couple of Ferraris, but it costs about half as much. Not quite the same price difference, but... You're paying for the name. That said, I'd rather have the Ferrari.

A Corvette really performs better than a Ferrarri?...I didn't know that...I'm not a car enthusiast...I don't even own a car...I just choose to live downtown and not own one ..transport is easy...and that $700 in my pocket a month..to spend on my hobbies.

In some ways. In all fairness, I shouldn't compare cars to amps... There's so many differing performance aspects to cars that don't really apply to amps.

It doesn't sound like you need class A power - it sounds like you just need more power.

If 600 watts(the maggies are 4 ohm speakers, so I'll go with that) is not enough for them, I really don't know where you'll find a more powerful amp. I doubt that amp is pushing that much, because in theory - you get twice as much power at 4 ohms that you do at 8 ohms. It is a true rarity that you'll find an amp that increases linearally in watts as the ohms decreases - and being able to deliver twice as many watts plus one hundred more at 4 ohms than at 8 ohms just doesn't sound real to me. Perhaps you should look into higher power amps such as this rotel. It pumps out 130 watts more in 8 ohms, which is in theory 260 more watts in 4 ohms - sounds like what you need. You cann sell that Bryston for $2400+ easily, and for that price, surely you can find something(perhaps used) with more power.