Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater AV receivers/Amps confusion, please help.

Ok folks, I'm probably jumping the gun a little on something I may never need, however, I'm curious and need educated. I've never owned seperates or amps to go with an AV receiver. I see a lot of discussion on these boards about Outlaw, Rotel, etc....


So here I go...I have the Denon 2805:
.......................
7.1 A/V Receiver with Dolby Digital Surround EX, Dolby Pro Logic IIx & DTS ES Discrete 6.1 • Dolby Digital Surround EX, Pro Logic IIx decoding with Cinema, Music and Game Modes • dts ES Discrete 6.1 and Matrix 6.1 decoding • dts Neo:6 Stereo to Surround decoding • dts ES 96/24 5.1 decoding for DVD Video • Analog Devices HammerHead SHARC 32 bit floating point DSP processor • New 7.1 channel Auto-Setup and Room EQ function with included DENON microphone DM-S305 • 7 Channels equal power amplifier section • 100 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, <.05%THD) • 135 watts per channel (6 ohms, 1 kHz, <.7%THD) • 16 Analog Devices, 24 bit, 192 kHz high resolution DACs on all eight channels, in differential configuration • Real 24 bit, 96 kHz Digital Interface Receiver • 24 bit, 96 kHz A/D conversion on all Stereo analog inputs (Not EXT. Inputs) • Pure Direct mode defeats Video, Front Panel Display circuitry and with Analog sources the Digital circuitry • ALPHA 24 Processing on Front Channels • Adjustable High and Low Pass Crossover (40/60/80/100/120/150/200/250Hz) • 3 Assignable Component Video inputs (100MHz Bandwidth), with On-Screen Display • Video Conversion of Composite to S-Video and/or to Component, with on-screen display • 7 sets composite and "S" video inputs • 7.1 external wide bandwidth (100 kHz) inputs for multi-channel formats, such as DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD • 5/6/7 Channel Stereo • Digitally regulated volume control with .5dB increment adjustments and step range of -80 to +15 • Audio Delay adjustment to match audio signals with video signals(0-200ms) • Personal Memory Plus • 7 assignable digital inputs (5 Optical, 2 Coaxial) • 2 Optical digital outputs • 11 analog inputs including built-in AM/FM tuner • True 2 Source, 2 Zone functionality with Discrete Power, Source Select and Volume control for each zone • (1)Multi-Zone stereo pre-amp level audio outputs, fixed or variable level • (1) Multi-Zone Composite Video output • Power Amplifier Assign function, lets you assign 2 of the 7 amp channels to drive Zone 2 speakers directly • Direct Access Tuner presets by remote • Glo-Key pre-programmed remote control with learning function • RS-232C Port for Third Party Control Systems • Remote I/O ports • Assignable +12v triggers (2)
.......................

Speakers M60ti's, VP150, EP350, 4 Qs8's

Currently the system is up in my living room and all is wonderful, but I'm worried that once I finish my basement HT/recroom, the room is going to be to big. So I'm curious if adding an amp/amps would help for larger rooms. Again, I don't know anything about amps, but I"m hearing a lot about the Outlaw M200 monoblocks, and also the 7100 7.1 amp. What are your opinions on if I could make use of one of these to improve my system, or is the Denon adequate? When using amps, does the receiver still process the surround like Dolby EX and DTS ES, and the amp just gives you additional power? I still want to make use of my Denons guts....

Below is the room I'll be using soon. The speakers actually won't be that far apart, I'll have a 110" wide screen on the wall and the speakers will sit on a platform below the screen.




yours truly,

Amp stupid Sirquack.

you are half right, and half wrong..

1st- if you use an external amp, the denon WILL do all the processing and decoding of the source material.. so, as you mentioned, the DTS, Dolby digital EX, etc., will all be decoded and run thru the denons processors. the added amps are just for power only.

2nd- the power levels of the receiver and amp do not 'piggy-back' on each other.. in other words, if the denon is puting out 100 wpc, and you use an amp that puts out 150 wpc, then you will just be putting out the 150w from the amp. you dont 'combine' the two. once you hook up the external amps to their respective channels(fronts, center, surrounds), the amps in the denon will shut down, and just send the source signal to the amp, which will then power it to the speakers.. does that make sense? i hope so.

keep in mind, the 100wpc that the denon is rated, might not be with all channels driven. so, if you get a true 5 or 7 channel dedicated amp, or monoblocks, you will be getting a TRUE 100w or 150w(which ever you get) output to the speakers.

i myself have contemplated getting the marantz 9000 amp, that would give me 150 dedicated to 5 channel.. but as it is, i dont turn it up all the way, so i ask myself , "do i really need it"?

bigjohn

Hey Randy,

Congrats on the new room; condolences on the upgradeitis.

Somebody will undoubtedly declare that you will continue to suffer anemic midrange and harsh highs unless you buy a separate amp. Somebody else might offer that it's unlikely you'll ever use the existing dynamic power you have at your disposal and that it could not possibly matter.

Personally, my opinion is that you're probably better off spending that money doing something to make your loved ones happy than on upgrading what is already a pretty damn nice receiver.

If you get an amp, you'd just hook it up to the pre-outs of your Denon and continue to use the Denon for the processing and control, no longer employing the corresponding Denon amplifier channels.

I know that's a big room, but you won't really be sitting too far away from the speakers, and it seems to me that an honest 100 wpc would be really pretty freakin loud.

(This post offered free of charge solely as opinion based on personal experience. It is not sponsored by any manufacturer or corporate entity, and is unsupported by scientific publications. No warranty expressed or implied. Use at your own risk. Void where prohibited by law. Have a good beer.)

- Tom

thanks so much Tom and Bigjohn, I didn't mention that I have 9' ceilings also. Another concern I have is accoustic treatments, or whatever you call them. I'm sure I'll have a lot of echoing at first until I get carpet, furniture, etc... Only time will tell....

I would go out on a limb here and suggest that the acoustic treatments may be more important than adding power to the system. On the other hand, you may not need to do either.

i would suggest you put deer whistles in all corners of the room then wrap all your equipment in tin foil.

Be careful with the deer whistles. I installed a set on my car backwards and a herd of deer chased me for weeks.

funny lmao

funny, I remember back in 91 when my wife bought her first brand new car after college to replace a 77 Gremlin anyway she bought a 91 brand spankin new Pontiac Grand Am with a quad 4 get up and go engine... Being raised on a farm in Iowa, her dad talked her into putting deer whistles below the bumper, out of sight, as deer are a real problem in these parts. A week later after we made our monthly Walmart run, she smacked into a deer. Those whistles are worthless....

I will echo what others have stated. Your current receiver should be ample for your listening area. By the way, from what I have come to understand, Denons are fairly true to their advertised power ratings.

Lastly, keep in mind that there is a dimnished scale of returns regarding power and SPL. In other words, if your current system is 100w/channel and you get 110db on a sound meter when your receiver volume is set at 'X', by switching to a 200w/channel receiver (increasing the watts by 100%)you will not get a 100% increase in SPL at volume 'X'. Actually, you would only be at 113db...a net gain of 3 decibals.

Here is a good article to read on the subject:

http://www.audioholics.com/FAQs/wattsvsdBs.php

In reply to:

---

worried that once I finish my basement HT/recroom, the room is going to be to big. So I'm curious if adding an amp/amps would help for larger rooms.

---

You have a great system and IMO don't need any more amp power.

Your EP350 powered sub offloads much of the power demands from your amp. Bass frequences take the most power, and your sub is shouldering that.

Just make sure your receiver bass management is set to subwoofer only (not sub+mains), set all speakers to "small", and crossover about 80Hz.

Besides room acoustic treatment, the only real enhancement would be a bigger subwoofer (but I like bass). The EP350 is pretty powerful and probably fine.

If you like surround music get a SACD or multiformat player and some multichannel discs. See http://store.acousticsounds.com/ and search on SACD and DVD-A to see if any of your favorite artists have multichannel discs out.

Thanks guys, appreciate all the feedback, time will tell. Hopefully I'll be done hanging all the drywall in the next week or so, then I can get someone in there to mud/tape/texture the basement. I'm hoping to get some pictures up on my website of the construction process/finished process asap...

ps: I have all the speakers set to small currently with an 80hz crossover on the receiver, volume on the sub at 12 o'clock, phase switch in the up position, and it is totally awesome. I'm sure things will change a bit when I move down to the bigger room. I might even get a second EP350, as the overall room is like 30' x 30' minus the AV closet I put in.....

Randy

I thought I recall reading somewhere(a post from Alan??? I think) that you should set the speakers to LARGE for the M80 and M60. I'm using the EP350 sub as well.

Could someone please confirm this?
Thanks!

I don't recall that, if you set your crossover to 80hz, the M60's and M80's will still play a lot of lowend bass, and as you gradually go below that crossover point the sub kicks in and rocks the house. Some like 60hz and some like 120hz settings, but I think the norm is around 80hz, there is a lot of bass down to those levels and the M60's and M80's are very very capable of those notes.

M60's
VP150
EP350
4 Qs8's

Ok. I found the link.
http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/subsetup.html

"For Axiom’s larger tower speakers--the M80ti’s, M60ti’s, and M50ti’s--depending on the particulars of room size, start by selecting the "Large" setting on your receiver for the left and right main speakers, and "Small" for the center and surround channels. With these settings, and the subwoofer set to "On," most receivers will route full-range sound, including deep bass, to the main left and right speakers, and bass below 80 Hz to the "Sub Out" jack on the rear panel of the receiver. (Some rooms may benefit from smoother bass by getting deep bass from three room locations--the sub plus the main left and right speakers--rather than a single subwoofer.)...."

Basically, it says experiment with Large and Small to see which one sounds best for your home theater setup. Some room benenfit from the additional subs(Front Left and Front Right) vs a stand-alone sub only like EP350.

I better go home and experiment with Small and Large again.

From my experience, running my M60s at "large" is definitely superior - richer, more natural, just clearly better - for HT. Of course, this is in my house and I really only experimented with one movie ("The Fast and the Furious", I think).

You should get a second movie. That would really expand your viewing pleasure

In reply to:

---

start by selecting the "Large" setting on your receiver for the left and right main speakers, and "Small" for the center and surround channels. With these settings, and the subwoofer set to "On," most receivers will route full-range sound, including deep bass, to the main left and right speakers, and bass below 80 Hz to the "Sub Out" jack on the rear panel of the receiver.

---

question: Many receivers have a "subwoofer setting" in which you can choose "LFE" or "LFE+MAINS. With the above configuration which "subwoofer setting" would be appropriate? Anybody?

Funny this forum has popped up while I've been doing extensive A/B testing with Large vs. Small. I though at first it a fluke with one of my receivers...but now I've had more receivers and the results are the same. Personally the best sounds for every speaker has been Large for all of them. The only problem is that this sacrifices subwoofer activity. Though my friend, who has a Denon 3805, swears he is able to get crossover activity in addition to having his speakers on Large. Perhaps...I haven't heard it yet. If this is the case, I would find this ideal as most speakers sound fuller on Large, and then maybe crossover at 60 Hz as not to get too much doubling of bass activity.

But...I don't have that option so....I'm still uncertain what I'm going to do.

In reply to:

---

you can choose "LFE" or "LFE+MAINS. With the above configuration which "subwoofer setting" would be appropriate? Anybody?

---

This is a very confusing area, worsened by the lack of clear documentation from receiver manufacturers.

If you have L/R MAIN = LARGE and LFE=SUB, it is unclear where the bass frequencies go. Conceptually the two settings are in conflict.

My Yamaha RX-V1400 manual implies that if LFE=SUB (not BOTH) then bass freqs go to the sub regardless of whether the main speakers are set to LARGE.

If LFE=BOTH, then bass freqs go to whatever speakers are set to LARGE, in addition to the SUB.

Various receivers may implement this differently. It's unfortunate it's so poorly documented.

It's possible some receivers don't have the setting LFE=BOTH, rather steer bass both places with LFE=SUB and L/R MAIN=LARGE.

In general if you have a capable sub I don't see the point of redundantly sending bass frequencies to your main speakers. In theory you can get better "blending". But there's also a risk of "bass doubling" if not properly calibrated. Also an 80Hz crossover is so low I somewhat question the "blending" argument; just my opinion.

Even with LFE=SUB and L/R Main=LARGE it's not a brick wall filter at 80Hz. Usually some freqs below that go to your mains. However even that is probably receiver specific. Another area most mfgs should better document.

Yes, it is very confusing. A google search for "LEF+MAINS" turns up a s#!t load of other folks who are confused and very little in the way of advice from the professional reviewers. I've always hated the Denon manuals. You would think that with all the product improvements they've made over the years, they would put a little extra effort in the manual .

Maybe Alan can shed some light on this for us.

For DD/DTS I simply use the "LEF" setting with the mains set to small. My main concern is 2 channel material without the .1 channel when used in direct/pure direct modes and you want mains set to large with sub output as well.

How about it Alan? What is the definitive poop on the "LEF and LEF+MAIN" subwoofer mode setting?

Yet another complication of LFE+MAINS concerns speaker level calibration vs real material.

There are various calibration sources: built-in receiver test tones, built-in player test tones, DVD cal discs like Avia, etc.

If you don't know exactly how the LFE+MAIN bass management works for the calibration method you choose, you could easily get bass doubling.

E.g. Using either Digital Video Essential or my Dolby calibration disc, there's no difference in bass output when switching from LFE=BOTH to LFE=SUB (with FRONT=LARGE). No difference audibly or on a meter. Say you have LFE=BOTH, FRONT=LARGE and set subwoofer levels based on this.

Then you play real material, say a CD. I have some organ music that outputs constant low freq notes -- easy to measure bass output on that. While playing that, if I switch from LFE=SUB to LFE=BOTH (with FRONT=LARGE), bass output goes way up -- classic bass doubling.

It is the worst possible situation -- a behavior variance between calibration and real material. That effectively means I can't calibrate bass levels with LFE=BOTH and FRONT=LARGE.

This stuff should be so easy, but the mfgs through poor documentation and lack of standardization make it very complex. And I've worked with this stuff for years -- I can't even imagine (say) my wife tackling this.

And that doesn't even include the SACD bass standardization problems, or other setup/calibration complications from multichannel analog sources.

If the home theater/surround/media vendors want broader acceptance of this stuff, they need to do a better job of documentation and standardization.

Indeed. I have a solution, albeit a costly one. For those who don't have the LFE+Mains option, as I do not, you can use the preouts on the back of your receiver to send the singal to your subwoofer. I'm actually going to try this when I get home tonight. I have my surrounds set to small, my front soundstage set to large. I think almost all receivers will at least do a large + sub setting for your front left and right speakers.

So, I have one cable coming out of the preout sub channel, and another sub cable coming out of my preout center channel (because my sub has a stereo left/right input and I'm only using one of them now, plus the bass track is mono so it should only just add additional signals). If it works out I'll probably eventually get a sub specifically for the side surrounds. So all 5 channels can be set to large and get a sub signal. Obviously this sub can be smaller than my main one.

Again, a little costly, a little room consuming, but I imagine this is the best of both worlds. Those of you with two subs can test this stuff out now.

I'll post tonight and let you all know if it works.

>>If the home theater/surround/media vendors want broader acceptance of this stuff, they need to do a better job of documentation and standardization.

The HT industry found a better and cheaper solution -- crappy little mains that don't have a hope of overlapping (doubling) with the subwoofer. Doesn't matter what setting you use with 90% of the HTIB's...

Mike, you mean that you don't find all the owners manuals to be clear and concise?....... Okay, so maybe quantum physics is about the only thing I've studied that's more complicated than a HT receiver manual. But on your LFE/LFE+MAIN point, isn't the relatively definitive poop that if you set the 3805 for LFE only in the sub, then the sub would only play LFE special effects(if and when present on DD/DTS movie tracks)and redirected bass from speakers set small. If there's no .1 LFE channel and the speakers are set large, then there's no output to the sub. If LFE+MAIN is set and the mains are set large, then the mains(and the receiver amps)will carry a full-range load and the sub will also double the bass of the mains below the selected crossover frequency.

John, are you trying to confuse me more cause it's working.

Except for the typos, the vague references to obscure intricacies, and the mis-worded/mis-punctuated sentences, the owners manuals are wonderful.

In reply to:

---

isn't the relatively definitive poop that if you set the 3805 for LFE only in the sub, then the sub would only play LFE special effects(if and when present on DD/DTS movie tracks)and redirected bass from speakers set small. If there's no .1 LFE channel and the speakers are set large, then there's no output to the sub. If LFE+MAIN is set and the mains are set large, then the mains(and the receiver amps)will carry a full-range load and the sub will also double the bass of the mains below the selected crossover frequency.

---

Why would it double the bass below the selected crossover? If you set the mains to large and set the crossover to a setting that is right at or slightly above what the speaker is capable of, shouldn't the low bass below the crossover be kicked out to the sub.

It seems that there should be one more "setting" choice for playing 2 ch material while using the mains as large while sending the bass below the crossover to the sub. Which, I suppose, would be the same as setting the mains to small and having a low (60Hz or lower) crossover. Come to think of it, if you are going to use a sub there is probably no point to running the mains as large no matter what thier bass capibilities are because you can always set the crossover low and the mains will still act like a full range speaker.

But in the receiver settings,what do you do if you want to run the mains as large and still use the sub to fill in below what the mains are capable while not having the mains receive a full range signal (while playing back 2 channel CD)?

Obviously, when playing 2 ch there is no .1(LFE). So if the receiver is set to "LFE" and the mains are set to large there should be nothing going to the sub. Right?

Mike, of course speakers roll off and don't suddenly stop, so whatever frequencies are still being output in the bass by the mains will be duplicated by the sub, not to a good effect in my view.

Your "Come to think of it..." is my view. If a sub is used, set the speakers small and set the crossover at an appropriate frequency.

No receiver setting could set the mains large but not force them and their amps to carry the low bass load because large means full-range by definition. The benefit of bass management in relieving the speakers and the receiver amps of part of the low bass burden requires the small setting.

Yes, if a regular stereo source with no .1 LFE channel is being played, the mains are set large and the sub is assigned LFE only, it should receive no output.

Ah! Ha! I knew that you knew that I knew what I was talking about.

It's good to know that knowers know the things they know, don'tcha know?

You know it!

My brain hurts.

And then from the West came the Outlaw ICBM, and there was much rejoicing. *Yay!! Yay!! Yay!!*

Yeah, mine was throbbing to. I had to take some Percodan.

Do you use the ICBM for DD/DTS as well as SACD/DVD-Audio?

It hooks up from the source> to the ICBM> to the receivers ext. inputs, right? What if you have a source component that can't set center and surround to the "large" setting.

>>But in the receiver settings,what do you do if you want to run the mains as large and still use the sub to fill in below what the mains are capable while not having the mains receive a full range signal (while playing back 2 channel CD)?

Get an HK receiver and set the mains crossover to a different (lower) frequency than the center and surrounds. I'm currently playing with mains set to LARGE, sub set to LFE + L/R, and mains x-over set to 40 hz. Sounds pretty good -- setting mains to SMALL is actually just fine for HT, maybe the best, but I still prefer to play music with the mains set to LARGE.

Yes I have mine set up as my universal bass management. (Between the pre-outs and pre-ins) I also made sure to set everything to large in the receiver and (I'll double check this one)in the universal player (Denon DVD-2200). Now if the source can't set the center and surrounds to "large" then there's not much you can do about that one other than upgrading.