So with the inevitable change out of the old RPTV sometime this year (or perhaps next major holiday sales), I was thinking of turfing the old AVR first so i can get everything else i have connected, re-connected, and then all i have left to do is replace the tv at some point (simple hdmi plug and play).

I already have an external amp i plan to use in the HT (an Anthem MCA30) which will power the mains and centre channel but the new AVR will power the surrounds.
Considering that i only need the AVR as a basic prepro but with some amp usage and otherwise mainstream features (Dolby Digital 5.1 presently but eventually 7.2 (MAYBE 9.2 but improbable) and no plans to go Atmos, wireless connectivity, etc.), i don't need a massive thing like i bought so long ago and by looking at older (last year's) models, can save some cash. Here's what i'm considering:
https://www.crutchfield.ca/S-2b6dXa3OBTL/p_580RZ730/Onkyo-TX-RZ730.html
https://www.onkyo.ca/product/tx-rz730/

You may want to hold out for HDMI2.1 receivers to maximize future proofing.

I've held out now for about 5 years from being an early adopter of OLED tvs primarily for cost but also to wait for the tech to develop. I can't hold out for more future tech specs. It changes too often.
Our aged system has lasted us 15 years at this point.

For our purposes i don't see HDMI 2.1 bringing any benefit. Lots of neat articles talking about the non hype.
https://www.cnet.com/news/hdmi-2-1-what-you-need-to-know/
This one is a bit older but still fairly relevant on the concept of adopting the newest marketing fads including 4k tv:
https://www.cnet.com/news/why-ultra-hd-4k-tvs-are-still-stupid/

Incidentally, the HT room hasn't changed in anyway. We sit about 11 feet back from a space that could house a 77" screen at max with room for speakers on the sides and a centre underneath.
Sometimes people could sit as close as 4 feet but that's usually kids and its rare.
As such, 4k is the max visual requirement for which we still don't get any content yet to even display. We only have one bluray (non 4k) in the house. That will go upstairs and if necessary i'll get a 4k player for the HT room but that is unlikely.
Bell satellite doesn't have 4k content yet in our province. I would have to get a new receiver to start (which they aren't selling here yet). New tech like 10k tv and such is SO far away, i'll likely be dead before it is mainstream enough for me to care, if i care if i lived that long.

Fair enough. HDMI 2.1 doesn't do anything for pure movie-watching setups. Most of the new 2020 TV's will include it though.

An amazing price for a receiver with 9.2 amplification and up to 11.2 off-board. What is crutchfield's return policy?

60 days, free return shipping. I have to stop talking to myself.

Chess, you may also want to look at this:

Marantz Audio SR6013 9.2 Channel Full 4K Ultra HD Network AV Surround Receiver with HEOS Black (Renewed) https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07KJVK94M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_ACvfEbEKN4QA4

I wouldn't use all those features which is why i'm avoiding the higher end 11.2 units. It would be wasted for our needs. Even the 9.2 use is unlikely.

Yes a very good policy.


No comment.

I'm not seeing a lot of differences except the cost ($100 more), the condition (refurbished) and maybe the Marantz does 4k upscaling if the Onkyo does not (which i have doubts whether this is worth anything and some OLEDs do it themselves anyway; https://www.sony.ca/en/electronics/televisions/xbr-a9g-series?showModelPrices=true), and apparently no backlight on the Marantz remote which is crazy for a HT use (https://h-m-entertainment.com/marantz-sr6013-review).
I like the style of the Marantz better but in a darkened room, no one is ever looking much at the gear.

The Marantz has much finer resolution (0.1 ft) for distance and also Audyssey XT32 with individual dual sub support and ability to tweak the curves. You can also turn off correction for the mains. I think it supports a newer HDMI standard too. I like the internal layout much better and I expect with HDAM and current feedback, the Marantz would give better imaging and soundstage than the Onk.

Refurbished sucks a bit but you have 90 days.

Not sure this will matter much. The difference of 12 inches and the speed of sound...


I've heard the Onkyo version is also generally quite good but i have none right now and have yet to EQ my room (like with REW) so at the present time i can say ignorance is bliss. Hence, does the room correction matter?
Something i want to tinker with but, not necessarily looking for as a must have feature.


Interesting but as a pro audio friend once said, unless you have an EQ system with hundreds of small individual correction sliders, tweaking a short curve with wide frequency ranges isn't very accurate.
I haven't yet looked at the user manuals to see what the Onk has/does vs. the Marantz. I'm on the fence as to whether i'll buy this new AVR soon to get these deals before stock disappears, otherwise i'm waiting another year.


As mentioned earlier, i don't think the new HDMI will have much to do with our situation. No expectation of going to 8k tv anytime soon given the still limited situation with 4k alone.
We aren't gaming on this system and even if we did, unless we had visual jitter issues (and we don't on our upstairs tv with a Nintendo Switch), then...it's moot.
What else does the next gen HDMI provide that we will use?
Nothing that i've read about but that fact that it has 'future' proofed this element does tug at my conscience.


I won't guess as to sound quality since the AVRs all have features to tweak things like soundstage. My present Onk has a feature that i have used and it does widen the centre channel soundstage quite impressively.
I plan on replacing our VP150 with a VP180 though so...


This is probably the biggest thing that holds me back. I just read a thread in AVS on a guy who bought this exact refurb unit and also from Crutchfield and was reporting some issues. He should have returned it.
A good price on it for sure and again i like its looks better but i have to ask myself if that extra $100 is worth anything.

Ive had Marantz. Sent it packing and bought Anthem. Best investment in audio after converting to Axiom LFR's

You don't know what you may be missing with room correction until you try it. Audyssey XT32 helped me big time. v2 got cleaned up real good. v4 is much better than v2 without EQ but it still benefits. Judging by how the actives sound in my living room relative to all other v4, they likely won't need any EQ in my main room. I know Onk's EQ has improved over the years but users report it is not up to XT32 standards.

Oh i'm interested in trying it but i don't expect it to solve every inch of non linearity. They've gotten better over the years and now take into account multiple seating locations rather than just one which is smart so having any room EQ will be interesting to tinker with.
However i still need a means to measure the results. Can't run REW if i don't have a laptop or a microphone. Other options or opinions on this are welcome.

I just use my ears to guide me. That's quite unusual for me because I am very data-driven. I have found that Audyssey XT32 works better for me if I calibrate very close to my ears. I only use three measurements: MLP, 6" to the left and 6" to the right. Belive it or not, this also sounds better for all my other seating positions around the room.

I would likely use both. First, hear the before and after difference, maybe decide if i like one over the other, and then check the measurements to see what was done so i don't pre-bias my preference based on measurements.

I've always found our bass during big scenes to be a bit anemic so it's possible i might like the sound of a bump in the lower end (not so linear). I could do this now of course, but if i turned the EP350 gain up too much it would start some port chuff, reduced with some batting way back but has still been a long time coming for a replacement. It's why i'm eyeballing an EP500 instead, or possibly two.
One thing rolls into another.
If we get a newer, larger, flatter tv, then it will get wall mounted. As such, i'll have space under the tv to put a rack for gear (which is presently in shelves to the left of the tv/speakers) which will also give me a counter to put the new centre speaker.
Then i'll have more space to the left of the tv/speakers to put a second sub as the gear will have been moved to under the tv area.

Is it mid-bass you lack or sub-bass? Both of mine improved significantly with v4 sealed. The boost switch really helps with mids by boosting 55 to 85Hz by 6dB. The active LFRs are BEASTS when it comes to bass. Better than subs for music.

It is bass at the lower end. Music sounds great with the M60s alone, direct signal.
If i were to play some organ music then certainly i would know i don't have the low bass notes and would have to switch to DPL II or something to have the subwoofer kick in.
It is more in movies where there's big explosions and there isn't an appropriate corresponding low end rumble of equivalent or expected magnitude.
The sub doesn't pressurize the room enough again short of turning up the gain and chancing port chuff noises. It's been awhile since i played around with the gain so i might try that first again.

Remind me again how big that room is in Winterpeg.

If i remember it is about 18x15 w 8ft ceilings, some angled walls (not a pure rectangle).
We watch tv on the long wall hence our seating distance around 10-11 feet away. No room to move the chairs back any farther so getting a seamless soundstage has never been 100%. I was looking into the omnidirectionals to help with this along with the larger centre channel.
Probably won't do the omnidirectionals anytime soon.

Are you still running M60v2?

Of course.
The changes to new versions are subtle and take careful critical listening to determine differences. I've heard the v4 series and unless i had them side by side with a switcher, good luck telling a difference.

I was contemplating moving to wood veneer possibly in having to buy a VP180 and an EP500 so there was a thought to trade in the M60s for newer versions in wood veneer or as i mulled, going with omnidirectionals. This is way down on the list of needs though. In fact it's a possible 'want' and not a need.
What we need first is newer AVR, tv, centre channel, amp...

LOOOOOOOL! Sorry. Nothing subtle about v4 over v2. EVERYTHING is better. Lows, mids, highs, microdynamics, macrodynamics, transient response, imaging, soundstage. I have had the benefit of comparing them right in my home for months and months.

I am waiting for M2 on walls and bookshelves. I'll be comparing them with M3, M5, M50, M100, active LFR. It's quite possible that with my subs, they may be similarly good to M5s for music and movies.

That could save you some money for better sound. M2, 160 and twin 500s maybe.

Yes i've read your many colourful reports. Are you sure you're not writing articles for Stereophile?

I think I know why you can't hear a difference between v2 and v4. You need to upgrade your AC receptacles.

I read your post too quickly and likely under the influence of a Frei Bros chardonnay.
I thought you said i need to upgrade my testicles.

I'll give you that one. Perhaps i do.
But i'm not the one who owns a nad tickler.

If you know anything about ballsack upgrades please let me know. Ironing and botox are not helping.

Ian builds better nad ticklers than Hitachi.

Hey Chess,

I just ordered a Denon AVR-X3500H from Amazon. They are an authorized dealer, so you get full warranty (I did not know that). This is a 2018 model, and it's the lowest level Denon with audio pre-outs and supports 4K. Roughly half off the regular price right now. Only 7.2 though.

It's going to replace my incredibly reliable Denon 3808 I use in the family room. I need to replace it because I've moved to 4K. Due to this move to 4K, connecting devices and running cables has become a PITA with the 3808 in the chain. I can't use it as a hub anymore.

I've had great luck with Denon. I regret not getting a Denon for my Theater room instead of the Anthem 1120 I bought. I love ARC, but the Anthem is clunky in comparison to Denon's user interface and system set up functions.

At any rate, it's worth a look. Might fit your needs.

The 4500H is on sale at Visions. It gives you AL32 processing. Also the power transformer isn't located under the processing boards. That's a big turn-off for me.

https://m.visions.ca/#/home-productdetail?productId=44150&sku=AVRX4500H

A sale to $1500 isn't what i'm looking for. Not unless i had no other choices.

Sounds like you're in the same boat as i am. Moving to 4k and the old AVR is obsolete (no HDMI plugins as one major factor). The Onk has worked great for 15 years. I do recall reading about problems with Onk HDMI boards but that was years ago. Aside from that, i'm not married to any brand necessarily. They are all pretty good quality, similar all around for the most part.

In looking for some of those Denons online, i'm seeing prices of refurbished for $1100 Cdn but otherwise $1200 at Amazon.ca.
https://www.amazon.ca/Denon-Audio-Video-Component-Receiver/dp/B07FMRD1RV
Can't justify the price difference over the Onk at Crutchfield.

We need to take the HDAM from Marantz, AL32 from Denon, VLSC and WRAT from Onkyo, ARC from Anthem, Direct Energy HD, PQFA and PQLS from Pioneer, TopART and Surround:AI from Yamaha and slam them into a surround receiver that costs the same as a 2-channel Sherwood.

Exactly.

Oh yeh, you're in Canada.....

So the US Crutchfield site has that Denon 3500 for the same price as the US Amazon - $599 USD. But the CA Crutchfield site has it listed as discontinued. Interesting...

That Onk you are looking at appears to be the better of your options. I am one of those lucky Onk owners who had to send one in for a board replacement. I will never own another Marantz, due to horrid customer service. Don't forget new HDMI cables that will pass a 4K signal.... Monoprice has numerous options.

Chess, check out Gibbys Electronics in St Catherines. They usually have some great deals on AVRs inc Denon....for eg... X4400H (B stock) for $879Cad.

Hey Adrian.
I did actually see them as a link that came up when i searched for units but both the X4400H and the 4500H are out of stock for B stock units.
https://gibbyselectronicsupermarket.ca/p...ceiver-b-stock/
Otherwise, good price.

Ya and the exchange isn't as good as it was 10 years ago when we hit par with the USD.


If i wanted to travel an hour down to the border, i can sometimes get things shipped within the US to a parcel holding place just over the border, but with the exchange cost, it actually works out to be the same or more so it isn't worth the trip once i include gas and lost time.


That does appear to be the final answer. I'm just still on the fence as to whether i get the new AVR now, or wait until i actually need it. I was not expecting to get the newer tv until this fall at the earliest, as long as the old girl we have keeps kicking. I fear i'm going to find myself shopping for a tv in the middle of the summer without any good Black Friday or post holiday deals (like with this Onkyo atm).

Part of the problem in pulling the trigger is waiting to hear about another contract at the end of March. If it doesn't happen, then the tv will be another conversation review and i'll be sitting on an AVR that i'm not really using. So should i spend that $800 plus taxes now when its a want not a need?
....and the analysis paralysis makes the world go round and round.


Good to know.


With the exchange again, i've found i don't save much by going with Monoprice. I just wait for a local sale and it usually gets the cables within a few dollars of online shopping.
I've already got a 4k HDMI on the main floor tv any new HDMI will all be 4k compatible (with the units that do 4k cuz i don't think the Nintendo Switch does).

I just purchased a new Sony x900f 4k Tv. One thing I found out real quick is that the Tv itself will upscale any signal that isn't 4k....using a receivers 4k up scaling is pointless, at least so far. I turned my OPPO's up scaling off as well. Although I would think the OPPO's video processor is better than the Tv's...you can't turn it off on the Tv. The image produced when the up scaling is turned on is kinda weird...reflective even. At least it is on mine. It's not really annoying, but it does look "off" haha.

If you leave the OPPO upscaling on, the TV would receive a 4K signal. The TV would only use its built-in upscaling when receiving a signal at resolutions lower than 4K.

So what i thought might happen, has started to happen.
The component video out on the satellite receiver has gone glitchy, fuzzy screen. I checked the cables and AVR and TV with other sources and cables and all is well. It is definitely an issue with the PVR.
Now the PVR has a HDMI out, but the AVR and TV don't have any HDMI at all.

Thinking about this, i'm going to either have to get a new PVR, or test the HDMI out on the PVR to be sure the output issue is solely with the component video board, and if it is ok, i'll have to get a new AVR that has HDMI in (easy enough) but also component video out in the hopes that i can plug the PVR HDMI into the new AVR but have the component video out to the old TV.

It's all i can think of doing until we're ready to pop for a new tv too and even then, i might still need a new PVR.

Ageing electronics, starting to die off...snowball is now rolling...

Not a horrendous price on this 2019 Denon
https://www.crutchfield.ca/p_033AVX3600/Denon-AVR-X3600H-2019-model.html?tp=73415

Except this note in the specs is rather bizarre:
Both the composite and component video jacks only support up to 480i (not compatible with 480p, 720p, or 1080i/p).

Since component video was designed for HDtv resolution.

A question for anyone that owns a Denon receiver (relatively new or at least new enough and high enough up the Denon model chain to be equipped with HDMI and component video out channels).

I'm hoping someone here owns a Denon with that config so i don't have to go over to Audioholics or AVS to find an answer. The Denon manual was not clear at all (no surprise but the diagram on page 286 if 100% accurate leads me to think the answer is no; https://ca.denon.com/ca/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx3600h).

If you hook up a HDMI input (like a satellite) to a Denon AVR, can you use the Denon component video out as the output? (most new TVs still have component video inputs so this should be a fairly easy test if someone has such a setup).
I'll need to know if using a HDMI input on the AVR requires that only the HDMI out can be used for this signal.

Looks like the Denon has component video out.

I think i found the answer and i expected because of the secure nature of the HDMI interface, this was likely going to be a no.
https://bit.ly/2uQ5Bm6
Per the Denon Q&A section (after quite some searching):

Using HDMI In and Composite or Component Out

When I use HDMI from my cable box to my receiver why don't I get a picture from my Composite or Component video output in the Main Zone or Zone 2?

HDMI cannot be down converted to an analog video level due to HDCP compliancy regulations. In addition, there is no HDMI video conversion to Zone 2.

So the oggling is moving to an action phase.

Looking at trade-ups with the Axioms, moving to EP500 from EP350 (original version). The VP150 Ti is moving to a VP180 v4. Adding some QS10s as well and will keep the QS8s (original ver) for now and decide later on if i want more for their purpose. I figure using the QS8s on the side and the QS10s in the rears...we'll see how things sound. The rear surrounds would sit directly overhead the seating area with no room to move the couches forward (maybe 6" but that's about it).

Also looking at moving on some of the office speakers. Have some vintage Mission 737s and Tannoy Revolution R1s. Will probably hold onto the Angstrom Legattos for now. Looking at adding some Monitor Audio Gold 50s most likely.

Tv and AVR still not expected until late this fall or post Christmas depending on sales.

If you are getting an AVR I would highly recommend a unit with Dirac on board. Really big fan and convert from an EQ naysayer.

I consider it essential now and plan on upgrading my 2ch setup to incorporate it at some point.

Except that there's a limited number of AVR with Dirac and they are all expensive. I looked into Dirac years ago as a unit on the side but couldn't pull the trigger.

What are we gonna play with then when I come over? Can't you sneak one of those into your lab budget?

Right now we're looking at replacing all the HT Axiom gear. Was going to change out a few items but the problem is aesthetics. The old vinyl Boston Cherry vs. new wood veneer speakers, even with the same finish would not look identical.
It almost forces us to change out the whole thing. If so, we may as well look at the custom colours then eh?

Related to that, if we change things out, i'm planning on testing some A/B of M60 Ti vs M60 v4. I can also test out the EP350 v1 vs. EP500 v4. I don't think i'll test the VP150 vs. the VP180 because it is obvious there will be a huge difference in many things.

On an unrelated note, i just bought a pair of Monitor Audio Gold 50 (4G) for the office. I've been doing some listening vs. the Angstrom Legatos and Tannoy R1s. I won't bother posting much about the R1s, but the differences in the MA and Angstroms are very interesting.

Chessero,

Before swapping out I'd ask Debbie if the Boston Cherry wood version is close to the vinyl. You might be able to keep your older vinyl gear. Everyone who's commented on my vinyl Boston Cherry speakers thought the wood was real.

The only reason I ended up swapping them was to match the decor of the room they were moving to.

We've had compliments over the years about the vinyl as well. It is convincing at a distance but more evident if you:
1) touch it by hand and
2) see it next to a real wood veneer product.

Debbie said that it would not be an exact match for colour which of course makes sense. Hence, I would have a VP180 sitting between two older vinyl M60s. I think if i were to spot a difference, it would be obvious given that situation.
We were going to go with Boston Cherry again but since this idea came up that the wood veneer Bostons might not match the older vinyl Bostons, maybe we should consider looking at a different colour if we were to replace them all.
There is the cost factor of course. We weren't budgeting to be replacing the remaining speakers (QS8s and M60s) along with the rest. Unfortunatley we would have to decide in advance; keep the Boston colour and get wood veneer versions and then decide if they look different enough to replace the others knowing that we'd still have to stick with the BC colour. OR, we decide now that we'll move to the real wood veneer and as such give ourselves some options to choose a custom colour.

The Boston Cherry is certainly nice enough but the chestnut stain is really rich and the Rosewood veneer is incredible. The walnut grain is quite nice too. If anyone has a link to a pic of the bordeaux stain on some finished speakers, i would love to see that. I have a feeling it might be more red than we might like.
Will probably contact Debbie about maybe getting some samples if that's still possible.

Here's another thought, question; for those who have the wood veneers (let's say boston cherry), does it have any wood grain like the vinyl wraps do? Or are they perfectly smooth varnished surfaces? (asking about the satin finish here of course b/c any gloss finish should be smooth).

These Monitor Audios i just bought have a satin finish and are the first veneer bookshelf speakers i have which have a subtle wood grain rather than being smooth.

160 & M5: walnut natural satin

M2: walnut espresso

M2OW: walnut bordeaux

Cherry chestnut and walnut nutmeg. Got grain.

Love the cherry chestnut. The walnut nutmeg not so much.

Walnut grain

That's fantastic Mojo.
Almost like you've got the start of an Axiom museum there. You need a pair of old vinyl wraps to put on the side for comparison.

Do you think you could post a few more of the natural walnut and the cherry chestnut (perhaps in less strong a light like indoors?)

The walnut espresso was on our list but now that i see the better real world colour, i think we might skip that one. It looks rich but it's almost too dark a brown. We had interest in the chestnut colour because it adds that bit of deep red but it's not an option for the walnut (might not look good with that grain?)

All walnut natural satin except for the walnut espresso M2s perched on the inside of the active LFRs. I love that espresso!

My friend fell in love with the M5 sound and walnut and purchased a set for her living room. They sound perfect in her living room.

The walnut natural satin looks a bit orangey in the artificial lights of my basement.

Cherry chestnut in natural, overcast light. See grain.
Walnut nutmeg also.

Walnut natural satin in the artificial lights of my dungeon.

Walnut espresso M2. The M2 with 500 is superior to your 60s. Place them with the tweeters below ear level and watch the images they form. Sublime mids and highs. Excellent for MLP up to 12 feet.

Interesting how that natural walnut seems different in colour somewhat from light source to light source. First it looks like a nice even grey brown but then it takes on a real orange tint.
In the Axiom deals pages, it looks much more orange on some units (for example: https://www.axiomaudio.com/arb-0129).

This is making it tough to consider the espresso or not. We don't want it super dark brown, love the natural walnut look, but do NOT want any of that orange. I already have some Tannoys with a cherrywood finish that have 'oranged' over time. I have a pair of old Mission 737r in walnut that also have that orange look (i was going to refinish them).

Hmm, almost starting to wonder if we're coming back full circle to Boston Cherry. I think the Bordeaux might be too red/purplish from what i've read. The Cherry chestnut was another possibility but wondering if it is too red.

The espresso is indeed a dark brown. And the Bordeaux is indeed very red. The cherry chestnut can also be quite red.

This is the photo that made me fall in love with the walnut. In my friend's natural light living room, her M5s look very similar to this. No orange in that natural light. Regardless of some tinge of orange, the walnut is indeed timeless and I like it very much,

https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=49960

I had some Tivoli speakers in walnut. They generally looked pretty good but have gained that orange tinge over time. Perhaps getting some kind of espresso 'light' stain would do the trick; make it more of a black walnut finish.

I like that concept.

It sounds like you're not going with rosewood, but here are a couple of close-up shots, anyway, of the Actives and EP800 I just got.

Thanks CV this is great.
Can you confirm that is the Rosewood in Natural (no stain colour)?

If not, i have to say it looks alot like Boston Cherry but with alot more grain.

Oh, yeah, I forgot to say it was natural, satin.

The Boston Cherry vinyl has more red. All of the M5HPs and the other EP800 I have are still in Boston Cherry. Even with more red, it's close enough that they don't look terrible together.

Can you post some comparisons?
I would actually love to see the Boston cherry up close.

And again, this is the Boston Cherry vinyl, before the real wood took over.

FYI:
I added some pictures comparing samples I received for the current rosewood in natural, the older santos rosewood in natural and a reddish stain (not sure what but Ian will know), and walnut in natural..

https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/u...er-finishs-rosewood-red-satin#Post437458

So the oggling is finally moving to an action point.
It seems like the two TV OLED options that i was perusing from 2019 (looking for sales earlier this year on last year's models) have taken a twist. Sony doesn't have a 2020 OLED in 75" (e.g. https://www.tomsguide.com/news/sony-2020-tv-lineup). Their website only has last years models on it for 75" OLEDs and the lineup for 2020 has 75" 8k LEDs and otherwise midsize OLED and a newer smaller one at 48".

Hence, i have two choices; buy a 2019 Sony A9G or the new 2020 LG CX.
Both are listed as 77". Both are OLED.
There's the odd small differences like the LG has HDMI 2.1. The Sony does not.
Hard to compare the image quality. Last year Sony vs. LG generally came to this; Sony had a slight edge for video quality, but how much a person would notice would be hard to do without having them side by side; two things i remember is that Sony handled motion better and was slightly richer with colours but LG was touted as better for gaming because of refresh rates.

I'm thinking these differences are minor AND this was comparing 2019 models whereas i'm looking at the LG 2020 model. Incidentally, you can sort of compare the 2019 Sony A9G with the new 2020 LG CX using the rtings.com pull down comparison list. The newer LG actually scores slightly higher in some categories; https://www.rtings.com/tv/tools/compare/lg-cx-vs-sony-a9g/10619/833?usage=11114&threshold=0.1
Watching a review of the 2020 Sony vs LG tech seems to corroborate some very similar observations as made for their 2019 OLED comparisons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHHTEU2tBhQ
BUT again, since Sony doesn't have a 75" OLED for 2020...i'm left considering their 2019 A9G.

Nonetheless, if i want the latest gen features (like HDMI 2.1 and i'm not sure i care about that specifically), or the latest LG processor, etc. then there is only one choice; the LG CX.
https://www.lg.com/ca_en/tvs/lg-OLED77CXPUA?returnFlag=Y#

I might pull the trigger tomorrow unless someone here can change my mind and make me think the 2019 Sony A9G is still the better buy.

I got a 65" LG C9 before the CX came out. I absolutely love the picture quality with good content. I looked up settings online, and I haven't felt the need to fiddle with them after putting them in. Feature-wise, the LG sets are hard to beat. At least, we'll see how good the HDMI 2.1 features are as more HDMI 2.1 devices come out.

I'm not so concerned with burn-in anymore, but one issue I haven't followed up on yet is that occasionally it will randomly shut off. It comes right back on, but it's still annoying when it happens. Reading online, it seems to be a common problem, and there are quite a number of theories. I've been dragging my feet on contacting customer support because who likes dealing with that? I have extra warranty thanks to Costco, but I should still get the process going. This one issue is the only thing preventing me from saying to rush out and get an LG OLED.

Whichever one you choose, I'll be jealous of your screen size. Maybe in a couple generations I'll be able to jump up into that next level.

I vote sony for full dts:x and atmos eArc support.

I hate the LG menu system, but thats just me.

Thanks CV.
I recall your earlier note about the LG OLED and your favourable opinion on its overall quality. Perhaps the CX series won't have the same shut off issue as yours. I can't say i came across that when i was looking into the C9 last year, but these type of bugs usually come to light long after the industry reviews were published. Since the CX came out earlier this year, i'm hoping to find some other reviews today, one last check, to see if any bugs have been reported that could be deal breakers. I won't be buying this thing at Costco, so the 1 year warranty is all i've got. I'm not paying $400 for any extended warranty.

The DTS and Atmos support via eARC won't be issues for us. We aren't going to Atmos (max. 7.2, possibly 9.2 if i felt ambitious and flush with cash but still highly unlikely). Second, with a new AVR also pending, all HDMI connections will run through the AVR to tv. I can't think of anything we would need to hook up in reverse to use eARC. I think earlier this year that was going to be a use for a purpose but now i don't think it matters. In hindsight, i should have left myself some better notes during my research phase. As it was, i kept thinking that i actually wanted/needed the Sony A1E and not the A9G for some reason. I cannot remember what that reason was anymore. It's irrelevant now since the A1E cannot be found anywhere in Canada for sale (discontinued) and the A9G has limited stock.

As for the LG menu system, i somewhat understand. We have both a LG and a Sony here in the house. If Sony still had a 75" OLED for 2020, i would be looking hard at it. However, since they do not, and there is a chance to get the LG for a good price, i'm going down that LG rabbit hole again. I hope i don't have buyer's remorse after when i discover some bug like CV mentioned. I think earlier in this thread or another one i swore i wouldn't much consider buying another LG product because i have never found 100% quality in their products (e.g. the shut off bug as a great example).

Looks like this power issue could be something with the new CX series as well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OLED/comments/grjx2p/lg_cx_65_problems/

Hard to say if this is specific to LG or whether it is a panel related issue that Sony may also have. Offhand, i had a LG monitor years ago that died from a power supply issue that sounds just like this one with the OLED panels coincidentally. Flicking on and off, power cycling, eventually failing to come on much at all, serviced twice through warranty then finally when off warranty it got e-wasted (back to my earlier stories on not liking LG quality).

Then there's banding (the dirty screen effect):
https://www.reddit.com/r/OLED/comments/hpk4lq/lg_cx_but_having_my_third_one_delivered_now/

Honestly, you've got me a bit spooked with this still. I came across this on the LG site but i suspect that is not the issue for most people.
https://www.lg.com/ca_en/support/product-help/CT20098005-1412238468277

I haven't seen this reported for any of the Sony sets, so atm, i think i'm actually leaning towards the 2019 Sony A9G. A few more look arounds for any other widespread reports and i'll make the decision.
I have ZERO interest in having another call to LG about a monitor with power issues of some sort right after the warranty runs out.

The more i look around about LG and its power issues, i think Sony is the choice here. What is it with LG not making/using quality PSUs in their products?
https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/21/...rea-power-board-current-draw-overheating

And after all that deliberation, the final choice was the LG.
I'm hedging the bet that some of these issues are not the norm. Some i've read are coding bugs (like the HDMI no longer working issue relating back to turning off the QuickStart function as the fix). BUT, at least it seems like LG is trying to fix such issues while Sony gives me the distinct impression they ignore such flaws in their equipment and unlike LG, are not coming up with more frequent firmware updates, etc.

Additionally, compared to the extended warranty coverage at Best Buy (where we were considering buying the Sony) Visions.ca has an extended warranty policy that if not used after it expires, you get the cash back as store credit. We almost purchased the 3 year version for $670 noting that it is inclusive of the manufacturers warranty so really you are paying for 2 extra years (a total of 3 not a total of 4) but then we saw that by signing up as a Visions Member (for free) they are tacking on an extra 1 year warranty to all TVs.
Hence, for no extra cost, and not waiting for 3 years to get a store credit, we are getting 2 years of warranty. That's enough to make me feel comfortable if we're going to have issues with the unit, there's enough time for it to rear it's head and for us to be covered.

Incidentally, there is a sale on today's end at Visions.ca for the LG CX 77" at only $4998!!
The Sony A9G is on sale at Best Buy for about the same price.
Fantastic deal.

Next up, finding a wall mount and a new AVR.

Congrats on your decision. I'm a little freaked out about the issue myself now, but yeah, it's not like I have more confidence in other brands. I look forward to reading your impressions.

Well LG oleds go back a few years now. If there aren't widespread complaints about repairs then i'm tending to think i'm reading the minority reports.
It was interesting to see a whole FAQ page on the thing on the LG site though. Sony sure didn't have anything like that. We'll see how this goes with 2 years of use or for that matter, right out of the box. Reading about dirty screen effects, banding, the QuickStart menu HDMI connector issue, the power off and ons, it does seem to become something of a laundry list of 'issues'. I have read though that some Sony oleds were reported as having the dirty screen door so that is evidently a panel issue, whether some burn in is needed or a setting changed or a whole tv swap, can't quite say.
The HDMI issue is an easy fix and workaround, likely be fixed with a firmware update.
The power thing is the only one that would have me thinking. If your unit is still on warranty and you've gone through that LG FAQ with no luck, i would probably call them.

I will have to. I did go through that page before, and I thought I'd solved my problem. I don't remember all of the fine details, but the problem was much worse before. I can't remember if it was shutting off every time before, or if it was simply losing signal a lot, with shutting off occurring at the same rate it is now. But it got so bad that it wouldn't keep the picture for any usable amount of time. I was fearing HDMI trouble in the TV or the AVR, but I eventually switched out the HDMI cable, and suddenly it was a lot better. I thought the problem was completely gone for a few days, but then it happened again. I would say it happens 2-3 times a day now. Still annoying, but that's over probably 6 hours of use on average, so it hasn't been quite to the point of annoying enough to get me to call. I'm sure one day soon I'll get to that point. I'll do what I can to put the screws to them about their power supplies.

That's just an absolute no. Shouldnt' be happening at all and certainly not from a new unit a year old. If you tried everything on that FAQ page, the final line said something about "if none of this works, you likely have a faulty unit".
I wouldn't have waited this long. Perhaps it is coming down to some kind of a HDMI handshake, and why that QuickStart option being turned off helps on startup is odd, but at least people narrowed it down to something specific, You'll need to dig up those specifics again as to what circumstances, if any, cause the signal loss. If it happens just while you are sitting in the middle of something simple, like bluray watching, it just shouldn't happen. The cables should be an issue before you even start watching. Now if you have something else in the mix, running a Firestick through a bluray player into the AVR into the Tv or something wacky, then maybe removing item by item from the chain (save the AVR) until you can find a resolve might help. Being able to borrow another AVR just for testing would be handy though, just to rule that out.

An update on the new gear front, some headway is being made but covid has indirectly slowed things down.
Since the pandemic start, electronics supplies and inventory have tanked, understandably so. Some prices have also increased as a result. The original plan was to have the remaining gear purchased by this time last year and since the situation is ongoing, it will likely not be until this time NEXT year (2022) before everything gets into place.

So the headway made?
The new tv was bought and finally arrived (after 3 months). The LG CX 77".
https://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-oled77cxpua-oled-4k-tv

Expecting to pickup a used Emotiva pre-pro for the main floor to replace the aged Cambridge Audio unit and completely move away from legacy connectors and gear with only legacy connectors (e.g. component video). Problem was that processors are damn expensive! Trying to find a pre-pro for a reasonable price that isn't over $1500 even used and 5 year old gear is brutal. If this works out well, i'm going to become an Emotiva and Outlaw Audio fanboy for the prices they put out gear!

Have settled on a new bluray player so the aged DVDp can be moved on and sold. Looking at the Sony UBP X800. I don't have many DVD-A discs, but i have a few. If i ever want to listen to them, i need a player that plays the format and sadly Panasonics do not, nor do the lower cost Sony's (of course).
[sigh]
But at least i can probably pick that up in the next week as it appears to be in stock. This will be the last disc player i will ever buy.

Still waiting to get a new (likely Denon) AVR to replace the aged Onkyo in the media room.

Moving to a 7.2 system so the Axiom speaker switcharound (supposed to happen last year) got put on hold until a new AVR can be obtained. The old Onk is only 5.1.

The hunt is still on for a main floor amp replacement (looking for a used Parasound Halo since i can't seem to find anything else that fits all my criteria) so that the Anthem amp will join the new AVR in the media room to power the three front speakers. I've considered some newer Class D amps, but IMO, they are WAY overpriced for the level/amount of electronics inside the boxes. I swear these things don't cost more than $100 in actual materials. The markup seems crazy high. Love the idea they are >90% efficient, put out tons of power but weigh often less than 30 pounds. Been watching alot of Amir's technical tear aparts and measurements of amps.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...phono-preamp-and-analog-audio-review.13/
Really interesting stuff. He completely turned me off of ever considering a Marantz AVR but the parent company that owns both Denon and Marantz obviously runs two separate companies as the Denon AVRs get some pretty solid measurements even compared to some boutique name brands separate components while it was apparent the engineering crew at Marantz put some filters into the path which even caused a frequency rolloff around the 10kHz mark; something you never see in amp/receiver tests (usually nothing but a straight line to 20kHz). Maybe Axiom or Mojo could submit an Axiom amp for Amir to review.
Darn curious to see those results.

And the parts changeover continues.
Finally have a new addition to updating the HT. The OLED LG has been here for several months now, enjoying it thoroughly.
The Sony X800 bluray came as well. Tested and working fine, but with our present Crave subscription, isn't getting much use (just for discs we have and 'in case').

But the latest addition arrived today, after a year of searching, waiting, trying to get some sales or something, finally got a top condition used Denon 4400H (2018 model). Looking at the specs on newer models, there really have been only small changes and 8k just isn't worth bothering (less so since i have a 4k tv for the next 15-20 years now).
Will hook it up this week and finally get to tinker with that Audyssey. After so many years and improvements, i'm anxious to see what they've done with this feature. That and i can get rid of a number of cables in behind the HT setup finally and clear up a rats nest (have some banana plug and speaker wire splitting to do).

Last items left on the list:

• New amp for mainfloor stereo.
• Move Anthem amp to HT room.
• Change around Axiom speakers.

It seems there are not many good reviews on the Denon Audyssey app.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/...=en_CA&gl=US&showAllReviews=true

Wondering if i should venture the $20 and expect much frustration for the cost.

Completely forgot about one update, removed the aged Cambridge Audio Azur from the mainfloor and replaced it with a used Emotiva UMC 200. With HDMI onboard, i can clean up more cables behind the stand. If we go to any 4k tv, those units will just plug directly into the Sony itself and other items will continue to use the HDMI switching on the Emotiva. In the meantime, the pre-pro has been updated!

Time to start putting used gear up on CAM.

Which Azur?

The 540r, circa 2005.
http://www.audioreview.com/product/amplification/a-v-receivers/cambridge-audio/azur-540r.html
No HDMI onboard though i think v3 may have had that added so i'm guessing mine is likely the v2.

Thanks. Was hoping 840a.

It's really disappointing about the Denon Audyssey app. All audio companies have a long way to go to become software companies.

Do you have to use the Denon Audyssey app to configure XT32?

Wish i could have accommodated. Now i have to list that and my old Onkyo on CAM most likely. I really hate using Kijji with a passion.

That i'm not 100% sure but there is no PC version. Plus it costs $20. I expect the only way to see the graphs and such is to use the app but until i see what comes up in the menu, i don't know how else you would be able to tweak the XT32.
I'm sure i'll give it a go and swallow the twenty bucks.

I've been thinking more and more about Denon as a potential future receiver. I like the XT32 but I want more control over it. But if the software is crap, I don't need the headaches. More and more, I need stuff that works and I don't want to be part of vendor experiments.

Could PM michael_d since he's had his Denon for awhile now and see if he's used the app to get his impression, assuming he doesn't see this thread and reply first.

Perhaps something with Dirac onboard and ridiculously more expensive like a NAD or Anthem unit would be in your ballpark. Most people i know would never spend $3000 or more on a pre-pro.

Unfortunately, we live in a time when audio companies are struggling to come into the 21st century.

To be fair, software companies are bad at software.

No all of them. I work for a very good one.

NAD T758v3i solen.ca dirac onboard

$1999

Case in point, that's a lot of money for just a 7.1 AVR.
https://www.crutchfield.ca/S-aiBFGyrjEfh/p_745T758V3/NAD-T-758-V3.html

To each their own I guess. Thats a mid priced unit compared to some others.

Mid tier Denons are $1799....

I hear you Chesseroo,
I've taken lately to purchasing refurb units especially if I'm buying last years tech.
The 7.1 unit I have in the family room and my 8805 are both refurbs. My M22's and VP180HP are refurbs. Axiom's refurbs are especially sweet if you get it during one of their sales ...

let's see ... x% off for refurb, y% off that for sale, and z% off that for loyalty ... oh, wait ... I can buy more ...

I'd rather pay more and get something that delights me and isn't a noise generator.

Nothing wrong with the Denons. 2 waiting to go in homes right now. 2700 and 3700. They just work, so zero hassles after setup.

Just not as robust setup wise for speaker correction. Personally, I would not consider any unit without Dirac now I use it.

I dont use the Denon auto setup routine for installs.

Although, the NAD is better in some ways, has little quirks that drive me nuts sometimes. Like loses HDMI audio lock if you skip too many chapters. Usually during a demo..... ugh. Lol.

I wish Denon had Dirac or ARC and it worked reliably.

Then you should stay away from prepros and receivers ...
The noise floor is fine for me but some others feel differently ...

Yeah, I’m not a huge fan of Audacity it sometimes works ok but you have to check and adjust stuff more often the not.

Folks complain about it but it has always worked consistently for me in my Onk. Never a glitch. I've noticed it always sounds better at my MLP with only 3 measurements around my corpus callosum. I do wish I could control the upper frequency to limit the correction bandwidth.

You have a denon 3700h?

No, we use them in installs.

I have a NAD 777

K cool beans. I need one for myself so was just curious

Ok so i got the Denon 4400H setup today. Ran the Audyssey. It did its thing but i was left wanting for the app to actually see the room response and correction. Bit the bullet, paid the dough and luckily it worked perfectly slick, no issues.
I'll post some images later. Might download that app Trev recommended to verify the room frequency response against the Denon graphs. Another small cost but i think worth doing for the verification.

Unsure about a one thing though it does mention something about this in the manual; it sets the sub distance at 21 feet when really it is at 11 feet. I'll have to read again what it says. What i'm not sure is if i can change the sub distances without the Audyssey profile coming off of use. I think i can manually change distances in the app though and then re-upload the profile.

I guess i'll also have to manually verify the individual channel corrections. So far i can't see anything about phase in the options. I know these things in the past sometimes put speakers out of phase but if a person can't change that manually then...eeech.

A few other notes about the Denon:

1. Do NOT like the remote. Seems like i'm hunting to find things. It's not intuitive.
2. Do NOT like their setup for switching sound DSPs or trying to set a default for an input. It is convoluted.
3. There were more options in how to change 'sound' in my old Onkyo than there is in this new Denon. I was expecting a variety of tweaks. For example, the Onk has a feature to widen the soundstage simply by shifting more of the centre channel sound to the left and right speakers in small increments. It really helped to lessen the hole without having to buy a larger centre channel. There's nothing like that in this Denon. The menu overall is really quite simplistic allowing you to setup the basics (rename the input channel names, what's your TV size, use the Denon video tweaks or turn them off, etc.)
4. I had the Denon turned up to 60 (out of 98 scale) to get 'normal' listening levels. I had to crank it up to 80 to get a more movie experience. That's nuts. The Onkyo on the same scale (0-100) hits ear bleed levels at 70 and has movie SPL around 60-65 with typical listening around 50 (spouse turns it down to 46-48 usually). What the hell is up with the Denon? I expected some difference in signal to output ratios but not that much.
5. I will have to play around with this BUT, i swear after i ran the HDMI from the satellite through the Denon (previously it was hooked up directly to the LG OLED with only an optical cable for sound heading back to the Onkyo), that the picture looks alot more washed out. I checked the Denon settings and turned off any of their video processing so that's not it. I'll double check this later by putting the hdmi back directly to the TV and see if there is a picture quality difference. I will be seriously annoyed if this is the case.

On sub distance- It is actually setting a relative time delay on the rest of your speakers to account for the subwoofer latency. Think of the subwoofer distance as a time weighting and not literal distance.

So, at 10ft added it is adding about 9ms advancement to your subwoofer (relative to the mains.)


1134ft/s / 1000ms/s= 1.134ft/ms


So 10’ = 8.818ms advancement relative to mains

First update firmware if not done already.

In the menu, if you enable Dolby Surround to process legacy material (absolutely good idea) you should be able to enable “center spread”. This will accomplish what you are looking to replicate from your Onkyo.

You can also set per input db offsets if you have some devices quieter than others. This will allow you to use the same volume as you switch inputs without wildly fluctuating output.

On the video side, go into your Bell box menu and ensure the video and audio output formats are set correctly. They always come kneecapped at lower settings (imo to save bandwidth on their side without most people knowing. ) Check to make sure the color space is not adjusted in your Denon by selecting bypass in the setup menu.

App I use is called AudioTools by Studio 6 Digital. Top 2 plugins included. Rest are adders. Transfer function very helpful as well, but involved to learn and $75 when I purchased it.

Yes as mentioned it said something about the distance setting that i was going to read more closely today (had to drive a family member home from the hospital at 1am last night so it's been a distracted week).

On that note about subwoofer distance, i would have assumed that as an end user, home consumer, you would set the sub distance to its actual distance from the listening position and that the AVR would account for the time delay based on differences in sound frequencies from other speakers. The fact that the Audyssey sets the sub distance at 21 feet when it is actually 11 feet is confusing. So the big and obvious question any sane person would ask:
Is Audyssey correct?
Because if so, every home user who sets this up themselves would never know. There are no 'conversion' tables in the manual to say "if your sub is at 11 feet, set it in the AVR at 21..."

Yep. First thing i did was comb through the menu, looked for wifi and updated firmware. All went well. No issues. Been building computers for 20 years. That kind of thing today is a given. In fact, when i got the used Emotiva UMC200 for the main floor, i was having problems with the video switching. I was told that it was updated to the latest firmware but that was only partly true. There is a newer 'beta but stable' version that was posted for people having any issues. It was released 2018 so i figured it was likely due to the newer HDCP 2.2 and newer tvs mucking with the protocol handshake. I updated both the Sony X900 and the Emotiva with this firmware (and the Emo update was tricky). After that, all was well with video switching and the Sony.

So the menu is one of those things then that you have to be set on an input and a DSP type before the options will show up in the menu. So nice of them to tell you that. I was likely on a default DSP like 'stereo' at the time and hence there may not have been the options you mention. I'll take a look at that again today.

I did see that and i probably will use that. There is a SPL bump when i use the Roku which on the Onkyo settings, i had to turn it down from say 55 to 50 whereas the Bellsat PVR needs to be at 55 for relatively similar SPL.


I haven't been in the Bellsat menu for quite some time and the PVR is an older model. Bell only sells their 4k PVR in Ontario that i know of. Why i can't say. Either way i will check anything in the PVR but prior to using the Denon, the picture was fine.

I did turn off ANY video picture processing in the Denon but that's why i was uncertain if something was still going on with the picture. What i'll do today is run a movie through the PVR, watch it through the Denon for a minute, back up the movie 1 min, switch the HDMI out of the AVR into the Tv directly and watch that same 1 min clip again to check for video quality consistency.

I was looking at this again yesterday. One issue, it is iOS only. I have a Pixel. I would have to use the wife or kids phone for it. Not a deal breaker, but not handy either.
Second, i was going to ask what modules i would need to do a room frequency sweep. They are not perfectly clear on their website about what modules together would do this. You need the tone generation, make the sweep and record the results. I know that they a real time analyzer in the base module but that doesn't record the room sweep results and i would need to run my own content for it. I do actually have some test tones from an old cd that Alan Lofft was involved in producing.
https://www.discogs.com/Various-Audio-Test-CD/release/9065715

Are the modules below the ones you would need Trevor for undertaking the room frequency check?
I would love to compare the room with Audyssey on and off.
Note that i haven't had time to read through all the module descriptions yet but i think most of the items i need might be in the base software (tone generator, recorder, RTA)


One other question i had for which Denon had an ambiguous answer. If you use the Audyssey correction and then want to make a change, let's say for kicks you want to change the Left speaker distance from 10 feet to 10.5. My understanding or confusion is that the settings might now become the 'user custom' and the Audyssey corrections are not maintained.
Can anyone confirm?
I'm also going to check with the app today too. You definitely can make changes to the smoothing curve and a few other things after running the Audyssey correction. It lists the speaker types (large, small, etc.) and distances but i'm not sure you can change them. Again i'll have to take a second look. At 10pm last night it was getting late to take on too many more tinkerings.
I'll also post some images of the room correction results today and we'll see about the Audiotools app for verification.

Actually at a quick glance it looks like i would need the LARSA module unless Trevor, you know how to do a frequency room response sweep without it.
https://studiosixdigital.com/audiot...lysis-modules/larsaloudspeaker-and-room/

And it comes as a stand alone application, the main Audiotools is not required.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/larsa-analyzer/id943103573

No, on the Denon after you run audyssey all of the remaining settings remain in place even if you go adjust the distance on one speaker or many. When audyssey runs you can set up two different presets but you can always adjust the readings as you see fit. I ran audyssey only using 3 positions for preset 1 and all positions for preset 2. I am experimenting between the two presets to see if audyssey is more or less accurate using the different numbers of positions. Now that I have my M5s hooked up and the listening position adjusted I need to re-run my audyssey settings but I will still run it twice using the different number of positions.

Yes, Audyssey is correct.

There is no table or lookup conversion because audyssey is correcting for phase. Each subwoofer will have it's own internal latency due to the onboard amplification\dsp and the mass of the driver. On top of this, where you put the subwoofer in the room in relation to the main R\L speakers will affect the phase offset too. Ideally subwoofers should be equidistant to your main speakers or symmetrical if you have 2. This is so that the phase of the subwoofer can be corrected to properly track both R\L channels.

Advancing the subwoofer (adding distance) shifts the phase positive in rotation. Retarding the subwoofer (subtracting distance) shifts the phase negative in rotation. Each shift is relative to the mains, that would be the reference signal.



Borrowed from Wikipedia. It is showing the phase of 2 waveforms and relative shift. This shift can be expressed in degrees or time if it is a fixed frequency. To find the time length of a frequency divide 1000 by the frequency wanted. You will get the time of duration of the wave in ms.

80hz is 1000/80= 12.5ms per cycle. So to shift a 1/2 cycle you need to move 6.25ms or 7.087ft.

To measure phase you need a relative difference between 2 signals. The transfer function tool in audio tools lets you accomplish this with a built in sweep generator and pink noise. Or you can let Audyssey or Dirac do it for you.

The trouble is when you have multiple subs. It is best to phase align the subs to eachother first, then let the algorithm match them to your mains as one sub signal. Pretty cool when it works. Super tight and efficient output. High startle factor.

All you need to do a frequency check is pink noise and the two included modules RTA and FFT plots. Pink noise can come on a CD or there are tracks on spotify for this. If you have a cable to route from the device there is a built in generator as well included.

Here is one on spotify for everyone to use.

Pink Noise -10Db ref
https://open.spotify.com/track/7apGZoUjP97d6UPDdMMc2e?si=f481a3c14a334581

Pink noise will give you a good impression of standing wave behavior in your room and general frequency response.

Sweeps or chirps will be a more accurate impression of how actual source material will sound in your room.

Most TV content does not have sustained frequencies that excite standing waves, but it is useful and important when listening to music or movie soundtracks to know where your problem frequencies are.

Please note: A microphone is only measuring one point in space. Even a binaural setup is not a great representation of what we hear. You need to take multiple measurements or move the mic around to get a better impression. It is really easy to fake a great room repsonse measurement and post to a forum. Lots of differences in moving just a few inches, so keep that in mind.

Yes, that module is great! Able to catch multiple measurements and compare and average graphs. I used that module to measure the M5HP and used the different graph panes for angles off the tweeter axis. Great tool.

One note on AudioTools ... Andrew also offers AudioToolsMax which comes with all the modules + any future ones. At the time I bought it, he was running a sale ... $200.

Might sound like a lot but I justified it as an inexpensive alternative to buying specialized equipment for the bench.

Thanks for the confirmation. I'm only getting back to the adjustments this afternoon. I ran a 6 position test late last night. The app worked quite smooth so i'm in the minority i guess compared to others who've posted negative reports on the app.

That makes sense YET, someone doing it themselves manually would still have set the sub at 11 foot distance. There should be some explanation on this in the manual.

Interestingly, my older EP350 has a Phase switch on it. I could try flipping it to 180 degrees from 0 just to see what Audyssey does, but perhaps later as i have much more important tweaking to try first.

There is a plan to add a second sub. I've always noted that the sub-sounds are weighted to the left side of the room where the sub is located. Likely boundary reinforcement but with that second sub i expect the smoothness often observed with the addition should come about.
That is the plan and hope.

This is why i think the standalone LARSA app might be better for determining the room response. I had thought about just using pink noise with the RTA but since the LARSA is the same cost as the base Audiotools, which one would i likely use more?
I can only think of the one use which is testing the room response under different conditions (wall treatments, new speakers, speaker movements, etc.). Convince me otherwise that Audiotools is still the better way to go over LARSA or would it matter?
I think i prefer the idea of the frequency sweep using individual tones via the chirps.

The graphs from the first Audyssey run last night, taken from the Audyssey app and after i corrected the midrange adjustment (turned off) and corrected their idea to roll off the upper end past 4 kHz for some reason.
The surrounds and centre channel were setup as 'small' and different crossovers of 80Hz and 60Hz respectively (by the app).

Have you been keeping detailed notes of curves vs listening impressions?

I haven't done any listening yet. Was just setting things up.
I need some quiet time at home. That hasn't happened yet. Probably next week during the day. Then i'll have a chance to get that other app as well.
The first time i tried to do the sound tests, someone was playing with the dog on the main floor banging things around so i had to start over. The the furnace kicked on, had to shut that off and start over, then the wine cellar AC turned on....

I think you need to move!

Just by fluke in my recommended vids. Spooky. Well not really I guess.

https://youtu.be/gmsxGPub-oA

Pretty current. 3 weeks ago.

Watched. Exactly why I dont bother with it with setups. Maybe if it was my house with unlimited time..... Kinda clunky.

I don't want to waste my life away performance tuning. I want to waste my life away listening.

Mojo, i think you need to look back on the 5000+ posts where your home tweaking consumed far more time than this 2 hour Audioholics video.

I plan on watching this through to see what they say and see if there's anything different that i've done. There are a few tools in the Audyssey setup. I'll have some questions looking for answers even based on a comment i just saw in the thread below the video for example:
"These are my findings relevant to this video:
Switching to 'FLAT' will ignore a frequency wall/cut-off or custom curve set in the Audyssey app so 'REFERENCE' has to be used if you wish to use anything but the full frequency EQ."
I saw the options for this in the menu and did not yet have a definition or explanation for them. I haven't looked them up in the manual yet.

Also just got LARSA this morning.

Hoping after i get some dinner in the slow cooker that i can get back to tinkering with the system this afternoon.

It's all Axiom's fault. If I had received v4 back in 2007, my tweaking would have been minimized. However, looking at it a different way, I would not have known how good v4 is without having heard all those speakers over the last 35+ years. I suppose it's something like water coloring. You can't possibly know how satisfying good paper, paints and brushes are until you try the ones from Walmart.

So I bought and used to audyssey app. Huge improvement due to the extra options and curve adjustments you can make. Definitely worth the 19.99.

So far i agree, but only because the app worked for me. Many people complained they couldn't get it to connect, etc. and then will have paid money for junk.
If it works, it works quite well for tweaking.

Definitely suggest watching through that video Trevor posted. Yes it's 2 hours though some parts where Gene is giving his two cents you can skip ahead 10 or 20 seconds and the second hour is them mostly answering questions from the 'live' audience recorded at the time (the first hour is them going through their suggestions for using Audyssey and how to). Generally the info they post on what to turn on, how to take measurements, etc. is all worthwhile. There's alot more understanding of each of the options now and what they do.
I'll be looking at some videos on LARSA after so that first, i'll setup the Denon again with Audyssey with the list of options used (e.g. using Flat vs Reference vs..).
Check results. See if anything looks wonky (in the video they talk about Audyssey setting the sub output too low).
Then run LARSA with Audyssey calibration off then on to take room measurements.

I
Yeah I listened to it while I was working today. Had some very good tips for getting audyssey dialed in better. Noticed an immediate improvement. It set all of my speakers to small. Crossed over fronts and center at 40 and surrounds to 80. I limited the correction to 300hz and turned off the setting that causes the 3db drop off at 2k.

I left it on reference since I turned the setting off

I've always planned on trying the app but for some reason never had ... if I find my self with some extra play time I will definitely have to give it a shot.

Definitely recommend it.
There are things you can do with the app that you cannot do with the Denon AVR setup version. In fact, the auto version does things you want to turn off which can only be done through the app. The Audioholics video talks about some of these things.

Well i've got the Audyssey run and set.
I got the LARSA set (sing an older iPad, a stereo to RCA connector and some Audioquest cables to the AVR front input jacks, then took a few measures with Audyssey off and then on. LARSA sends chirps to the two front speakers via the pad to AVR signal.
I used the LARSA chirps first (comes through in stereo only) and then switched to an all surround channel test with pink noise from a Youtube video through the LG tv app to get all channels going. Took two measurements with LARSA and pink noise, Audyssey on and then off.
Other notes, for this i had to setup the measurement system a bit different. Since LARSA uses its own chirps for every measurement you take, i had to quiet out the chirps being generated so the pad would only hear the pink noise. I simply unplugged the iPad from the audio output to the AVR then turned down the pad output volume to zero so the chirps coming out of the pad speaker would not be heard and LARSA would only pickup the pink noise from the entire surround system through the pad mic.

Bottom line, i'm not 100% certain that something isn't being done right, either by me, or by Audyssey
The curves with and without Audyssey are very subtly different and in some valleys/peaks, the curves are almost identical. I was expecting to see a much larger difference with the Audyssey on, for better or for worse. It certainly is nothing like the 'flat' curve you see in the Audyssey app that is reported to be set for each speaker.
I would post the images of the room response curves but i have to get them first off an old iPad, edit so you can see the curve labels, then onto Imgur before i can post them here. LARSA allows you to see all the curves on one graph BUT it assumes that all curves are multiple measures of the same thing so then it adds an average line as well. I don't want the average line and there should be a way to turn that on when viewing multiple graphs together in case you are not testing all the same thing and just want the graphs plotted together.

I'll have to wrap my head around this one a bit more and see if there are some reasons why i'm getting the results i'm seeing. Flattening the curves? Not from what i just measured.

Going to continue some reading and testing tomorrow, but reading Amir's results using Audyssey, his frequency response graph looks alot more like mine. There are some changes likely, but you can see many peaks and valleys still have much overlap without really any correction evident.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/audyssey-room-eq-review.12746/

I'm feeling more confident now that i've seen something like Amir's graphs which resemble my own (i.e. not as much major smoothing as i thought it might have).
More testing....

Make sure to enable 1.5s chirp. You can turn off the flag “show all curves”. Wrench bottom right corner. Try 1/6 smoothing. Little easier to read but hides high Q measurements. If you leave at 1/24 there is plenty of resolution.

Stay at it! You’ll get there. And know exactly where “there” is. My target curve is pretty close to Amir’s. He cheated off my test! Lol.

Yep did that.

Yep did that but then you cannot stack the two curves you want to see overtop of each other. You can try to quick switch back and forth but it's not easy to see the changes if there are minor. I just try to ignore the average line they draw but really, why is this not an option to turn off??

Yep i played with the resolution settings. If you have more than two measurements (one before, one after) then too much resolution makes it look very busy.

Compare to Amir's before and after, he definitely seemed to have more smoothed peaks than i did and there is a small range where when Audyssey is turned on, it actually creates three peaks where without it, the frequency range is almost flat.
I read another report from this link where the results shown before and after using quality measurement gear is WAY WAY more successful than what i'm seeing Audyssey do for me at the moment:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/audyssey-me

I'm going to tinker a bit more and i'll try to get these images off the old iPad to post here.

I will also try some limited listening tests with one or two songs to see if i can pick out anything that sounds different.

So here are the first results from late night testing.
Audiotools LARSA generating 1.5s chirps through two main speakers. Sound recorded on iPad 4th Gen mic.

Note the legend i added to the first graph. It will apply to all following graphs. Blue = Audyssey ON. Grey = Audyssey OFF. Black is an average line so just ignore it.

I provided two images of the whole frequency spectrum sweep with two different octaves of resolution. The bulk are in 1/12th octave setting. The last three images i broke out into smaller frequency groupings to see the smaller details better.

20Hz to 20 KHz - two octaves resolution, higher then lesser follows



Frequency ranges broken out:

Looks like a cinema filter is engaged above 6khz?

Rest looks ok to 200hz. Definitely not bad at all. Under 200hz looks pretty typical.

Do you have your sub tucked in a corner? Trying to think of ways to tame that 40hz peak. Not sure but is your length dimension front to back 14ft? If so I know a fix. Nother sub.

The Cinema EQ is definitely off. I suspect it might be a limitation of the mic on the old iPad. The alternative is that the room is very absorbing of high frequencies.

Really?
Good then b/c as mentioned, i was expecting to see a lot more.


Tucked? No. It sits about 9" off the back wall and 2' from the left wall. I don't have the room width to put it at the 1/4 suggested room width (4') but i have the same amount of space available on the right side now since we reconfigured the setup and hence i'll have room for the second sub with similar distancing from the right wall. If i tried to relocate the sub farther from the left wall, it would displace the location of the left speaker farther to the left and if the mains are spread too far apart, the sound pulls way too far left or right. I did a lot of moving around of the speakers during intial setup long ago and i really needed to have about two more feet behind the seating area to really dial in a wider sweet spot.
The room actually has a two direction configuration for 7.2 (we had the wired setup that way during construction). We have never tried out the room on the long axis because the width of the chairs would take up enough space that we wouldn't be able to have our small side tables for drinks without being able to walk around the chairs to get into the room. I often thought the acoustics would be better for setting up the sweet spot though having more distance back from the mains.

As for dimensions, the room is 16' x 13' approximately but the one wall behind the seating is not a flat rectangle (angle ceiling down ward 1/3 the way). The room is not a fixed rectangle in other ways as well. I had images posted at one point in the gallery but when they changed the forums over i think it got removed. I haven't taken any updated pics yet and was waiting for the speaker changeover before doing so.

Pretty typical before correction under 200hz.

Turn your sub down 5db in menu and remeasure. If the gain on your sub is set really high it acts as a multiplier -especially in a small room. 5db down may be more like 10 in that room.

I had to turn the gain on the sub down (sitting now about 20% whereas before it was around 40%) or the Audyssey would not run. The Audioholics video mentioned this as well and they noted that if you find the sub sound anemic after EQ, to actually change your custom curve to give the sub under 100Hz or so a bump. I think the alternative is to just turn up my sub 5 or 10% on the gain rather than playing with the curve.

I haven't done listening tests yet. I wanted to be sure that someone else who has played with this thinks the Audyssey is actually doing something. To my eyes it looks really minor, but changed, but minor, so much so that i wasn't sure it was turned on or off. I checked those tests several times though, ran each with on and off 3 times, saved just two to make these graphs after seeing the rest were coming out pretty much identical when the same options were selected.

It's possible your system did not need much "correcting". With the active LFR1100s, I can barely hear a difference between XT32 on and off. Different story though on every other speaker I've tried in my main room. Big difference on all those!

I thought he has M60s? Not sure

I have M60s, Mojo does not.
I also have the M60 Ti so i'm waiting for Mojo to recant his statement about how my system didn't need correction because the Ti were so horrible in comparison to v4 actives....
Right Mojo?

Cue the band...

It's obvious your room is correcting all the M60ti deficiencies.

Now there's the Mojo i was expecting!

Haven't posted in awhile. Things have been busy (gazebo project among others).
Thought i'd be brief, if that's ever possible....it's not really, so buckle up.

First, some quick notes then some updates.

Quick notes:
After a few months with the Denon AVR, i'm mostly happy.
The Denon app worked perfectly fine for me. You can adjust the Audyssey curves for each speaker, really neat. I posted some images of that awhile back but i can post some more once i have things dialed in and done. This brings me to the next point.
I have yet to do a critical listening test with Audyssey turned off and on but i've been holding off trying to finalize anything because of the intent to swap some of these Axiom speakers out for others. There's no point in going through it all twice. However, i did reset the individual speaker SPL settings because it just wasn't sounding right with the Audyssey settings.
I have also noted that the signal to gain ratio is way different on the Denon compared to the old Onkyo. When using the same volume scale (0-100), i need to turn up the Denon to between 62 and 70 to get the same SPL as i did when the Onkyo was set 55-65). In fact, on one movie i watched last week i had the Denon at almost 75 because i just wasn't getting any bass or overall volume out of the thing (at 75 on the Onkyo it was ear bleeding SPL). This artifact remained even after i reset the speaker adjustments, nor did it change when i added the Anthem MCA30 amp down there to power the two mains and centre channel. This is really the only disappointing part of the Denon because i feel like i'm having to really push the AVR to a point that i shouldn't just to get SPL out of it.

Re: the LG OLED.
Still a damn fantastic screen. Great colour. Very happy i went with the 77" BUT, a personal observation is that if you are looking for a "big" screen, you still need to go with a projector. The LG is definitely wide but with the 'widescreen' concept, the tv is actually not that tall in comparison. Basically i'm trying to say that "i thought it would be bigger" (yes there's a joke or two in there, keep it down Mojo).
Still playing with finalizing settings, doing some reading. It seems like the 4k and HDR modes take on their own colour settings and in part i don't want to tinker much with that. Colour DEFINITELY varies depending on the source (Bluray vs. satellite vs. Roku stick with Crave or Youtube).

The updates
Finally got an amp for the main floor; Parasound Halo A21 (original)
https://parasound.com/a21.php
That now powers the Tannoy D700s (https://www.hificritic.com/blog/the-tannoy-700-dual-concentric) as well as a pair of vintage speakers kindly loaned from an astute stereophile friend; ADS 1590s (https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/ads/l1590.shtml).
I was at this friend's place and heard his Mirage OM-5s (omni-directionals!), a project by none other than Andrew Welker.
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/revequip/mirage_om5.htm
I can provide some feedback on how all these sounded perhaps in another thread. This thread is following my home gear change arounds which this information is all leading towards especially after hearing these Mirage OM-5s.

The plan was to replace the main floor Tannoys likely with some Monitor Audio Platinum PL300s. I heard the Platinum line years ago, heard some of the new Gold series recently and loved a few things about the sound of these speakers. All that being said, after hearing the Mirage OM-5, i was reminded of the imaging and soundstage of the LFRs we heard at the Axiom factory (was considering swapping out our M60s for the LFR verions in the media room to help with a slight left/right pull because of the space limitations with speaker placement and seating). The sound of the OM-5s really brought me back to the day i heard the LFRs. This more broad soundstage was something i was preferring for the main floor system, and it was partly attained by having large speakers in this area for many years (plus it's a large room anyway and we turn it up now and again so i need something big). For a few reasons i decided not to pull the trigger on those LFRs for the media room and had a different plan to change things around in the media room instead. Notably we were going to change out some QS8s for QS10s, the VP150 to a VP180 and the EP350 to an EP500 (or maybe two). What i had not considered was perhaps getting some LFRs for the main floor and then doing something entirely different in the media room. Of course that would mean alot of Axiom brand replacement down there for another brand which means alot more cost. This whole new idea hinges on the success of the LFRs to provide a full soundstage in the main floor room. If they did not accomplish this goal, the the LFRs would go back, and the original plan would go back in effect (Monitor Audio PL300s for the main floor).

SO, here's the potential new plan which has one obvious flaw (can you spot the flaw?).
Main floor
--Maybe getting LFR1100 for the main floor (no, not the actives, i have too many other things to buy). Might even consider waiting for some refurbs or B-stock to cut some of the cost.

--Adding a second amp, likely the Halo A23 to run the back channels.

Media room
--Swapping out the M60 mains for Monitor Audio Gold series (probably the Gold 200 4G; https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/support/past-products/gold-4g/gold-200/)

--Changing out the VP150, surrounds and sub as mentioned with an Axiom finish that might somewhat match the Monitor Audio speakers (e.g. if the MAs came in ebony, i could get the Axiom speakers in rosewood, match up their dark walnut with Axiom's walnut espresso or even the boston cherry).

Any thoughts?
(and to get ahead of you Mojo, no waxing and drooling endless emphatic descriptions over the LFRs is needed; i'm looking for objectivity...if they don't fill the role as required, they would go back)

You can get 1100s in Deals right now.

Why the 180 and not the 160?

Very limited finishes. Black is a non starter.
The natural pine is a possibility but i would need to see some samples first. I do not want that yellow wood look. The whitewashed pine might be better.
Or i would wait for other finishes to come up.

Why not?

The 180 is more expensive. It will play louder for sure but I've never wanted more from the 160v4. Actually, I've punted it because the center image with my actives is jaw-dropping at MLP +/ 1 seat.

A21 wont drive the LFRs by itself. Can you find another one to match it?

I would prefer the widest sound presence with the 77" tv. The extra drivers and cabinet size will do that and the placement of those extra drivers should help with the left/right pull i have do to distance limitations with seating.

That's true (although not the flaw i mentioned).
I would be planning on getting a Halo A23 to run the back channels if i went through with this setup but in the meantime, i could bring my Anthem MCA30 back upstairs to run the back channels or i would borrow an amp from a friend until i could get the A23.

The flaw to which i referred was having an all Axiom setup in the media room EXCEPT for the mains. I would be pairing Monitor Audio mains with an Axiom centre. Some people get their knickers in a twist over timbre matching, etc etc. I would preferably have the mains and centre all be the same brand/model line, far less bothered by the surrounds and sub, but Axiom has one of the best centre channels out there and for far less than any Monitor Audio offering.
This is in USD
https://www.speakershop.com/product/monitor-audio-center-channel-speaker-gold-c350

Maybe, maybe not. You'd have to try both. The 160v4 is more linear on axis than the 180v4. With the 160, at 10 to 14 feet away, I can sit 30 degrees off axis with no appreciable difference. 15 more degrees and I can definitely hear an appreciable difference although I would not object.

I'm not sure you want a wider presence. A center is supposed to anchor sound to the center of the screen. The 180 will work but so would a 160 OR in my case


a VP150ow (under my 77"). This size is fantastic for a 77". It fills the 18x18x9 foot room it's in and sounds great.

P.S. that left speaker is impossible!! Darn think keeps moving

One more thought ...

The advantage to the VP180 over a VP160 is that it's not as tall ... so, it may fit better under your screen (which is why the VP150ow won over the VP160ow). I'd also suggest you consider the on-wall option if your screen is on the wall ...

Actually IMO, the sound should anchored to the screen, not specifically the 'centre' of the screen. Presently when someone is located on the left of the screen, the sound comes too much from the middle of the screen, which isn't correct. You could almost say it's like watching a dubbed Chinese movie with a person talking on the left but the sound coming from somewhere displaced.

In your case, based on your room dimensions and picture, if you are (and it appears you are) sitting farther back than i am with better placement of the mains up front, then you will get a much better sound from the centre area in relation to the screen. If i could sit back about another 3 feet, it would improve. Because our seats are closer to the mains, and i cannot setup a true sweet spot for a seated position, there are only two ways to better anchor the centre sound; by using the AVR menu options for changing the soundstage (tried this with the old Onkyo but it was clunky) or getting a wider centre.

I have tried smaller speakers and a larger one laid on its side for testing. The wider centre channel makes more sense because of the speaker placement/seating limitation.

When we did some blind testing of two speakers years back, i put the sound into mono mode and had the two speakers side by side about 15' away from the seated position. The person in the seat could not tell if the speaker playing was the one on the left or the right. Sitting farther back causes that effect but the reverse is true the closer you sit.

I actually spaced the tv to the right height so that it clears the VP180 height. Either way, the slightly lower ceiling height provides a limitation such that any centre channel will direct sound to the back wall which is blocked by the tv screen.
I've noticed a huge difference in the centre channel sound since the new tv went in. The old RPTV had the centre sitting on top of it and hence had typical sound reflection off the back wall.

I'm sitting a bit further back than I want to at the moment because of the temporary furniture. I'll be setting things up a bit closer in the future. In any case ...

I did do a bit of testing when considering where MLP should be. Screen wise I wanted to be in the the 6' to 8' range. Sound wise even at 6' the sound was fairly even across the screen (although a bit too close for two channel). I'm wondering if your running the center a bit too hot or if something else is off.

I had the opposite happen when I was testing the surround setup in the HT. My speakers were setup for a 150" screen while I was watch the picture on a 27" monitor ... that was very weird. The action on the right and left was way outside where visually it should have been coming from. Oh ... I had a VP180 under the monitor ... talk about a wide center

It's all in the speaker positioning.
Seats are 10' from the speakers but the chairs are so wide they span about 7' with almost 2' of padded arms in the middle (the actual sweet stereo imaging spot is where the chair arms are!). Hence, when sitting in the left hand chair, you are staring directly forward to the left speaker with the right speaker way off to the right.
Did a quick text layout.
Think this kind of triangle setup which ideally would be more of an isoceles shape from mains to the sweet spot for a seated position (i can provide pics later; was going to wait until i swapped out all the speakers to repost the new setup in the gallery)

_______<----6 feet b/w mains---->
--------------------WALL----------------------
Spkr (L)__*******Screen Size*******_Spkr (R)
_____________***VP150***
__________********VP180**********
[
[
[ 10 feet back
...[ .....................}..................{ ......................}
...[ .....................}..................{ ......................}
...[ .....................}chair arms { ......................}
...[ .....Chair .......}chair arms { .....Chair .......}
-----------Wall----------------------------------------

Note how the screen size to centre channel size varies dramatically.
Also note how the seated spots for left and right are very off the actual centred location for a sweet spot which in this room is impossible to get a solid stereo image at either seated position.
The back wall with the chairs is about 14 feet from the TV but it is a an angled downward wall, plus the back chair width and cushion depth leaves the user at 10 feet from the mains with no possible movement back any farther.
The main speakers are about 10" out from the opposing wall with the TV so no additional distance backward is possible.
Configurations for moving the mains closer together at most cuts the distance to 5 feet apart from 6 which has been tried and the stereo image gets even smaller....moving the mains apart any farther worsens the left/right pull).
The chairs cannot move to the left or right more than an inch or two.
There is no more room to adjust speakers or chairs beyond a few inches at most.

Many years ago i tried all these variations and where the mains sit presently is about the best i was able to get to minimize the left/right pull. This is why having the wide front soundstage becomes necessary. It was why i auditioned the LFR at the Axiom factory specifically.

The room sounds great. Some of the best DVD-A recordings are quite stellar even though at the two listening positions you have a bit of left/right pull. Adding some back surrounds will only increase the surround effects (and technically i could go as far as Atmos and add heights and ceilings but with the room all finished at this point, plus the extra cost, i'm not going to bother and am stopping at a 7.2 system).

I'm just limited unfortunately due to the room size and the size of our lounge chairs. If i had a row of 3 or 4 home theatre chairs instead of our double size lounges, at least one chair would have the actual sweet spot.

I don't know of any speakers that can help you in that kind of configuration. There will always be a compromise. Some KEF models or Mirages may be your best bet. They will cast a huge center image that doesn't waver at the expense of stereo imaging.

Edit: one of the things I've noticed is the on-walls in my living room are more forgiving of MLP than floor or bookshelves. That includes LFRs. I can sit 60 degrees off-axis and still get good separation and a center image with M5OW and M2OW. I don't know why. Maybe it has something to do with the bow window in between them.

Yes compromise which is why i'm looking to change things around.
With the secondary plan at the moment, trying out LFRs on the main floor, it is possible that the mains in the media room will not even be Axioms.
On-walls would provide about another foot back at most and could have been an option by pushing all the speakers and tv right to the wall, but of course, i have two wall sconces on the wall immediately on the outside edges of the 77" tv so....mounting on wall speakers isn't possible unless they were mounted really low which i don't see working very well.

Again i'll post a few pics later to show all the dimensional constraints.

If we do test out LFRs for the main floor, i will also test them in the media room though.
Lots of testing coming soon i think. Will have to see about borrowing the speaker switcher again.

My M5OW tweeter centers are 41" off the floor and I sit 10 feet away. I've tried them as low as 36" and the stereo effect is wonderful with a better soundstage width and just as good an image depth as the active LFRs in the same room. Ditto with the M2OW. The M2OW and M5OW are better in that room than actives in absolutely every way except for the more precise imaging and ungodly bass of the actives. I am much happier with those OW than actives in the living room. So consider them.

I can't see how LFRs can help you but then again, I've never had them 6 feet apart.

Edit: I always shunned OW. Then one day I thought I'd give the M2 a try. After listening to them, I called Axiom and got put through to Ian. I reamed him out because the OW didn't sound like the bookshelves. I asked him how he designed them and tested in the chamber and that turned into a half hour discussion. Poor guy said something to the effect of "Oh well, we tried...just send them back." As I reflected on what he told me about the design, I figured maybe I should nail them to my wall instead of listening in free air. Yup...dumb me. They were a revelation on the wall! They yielded nothing to the bookshelves.

If we go too low, the tweeters may be at head height, or less, the long lounge chairs would likely affect sound in the midrange. Additionally, the sound would be too low for the screen which sits up fairly high. It is mounted above the 33" cabinet by about another 14" so the bottom of the screen starts around 47" which presently is already well above the M60 tweeter height.
I have actually raised the M60 on pucks before to see what the elevated effect would be.

I've found M2, M3, M5 image more holographically when the tweeters are 6" below ear level. I've tried this at 10 to 14 feet MLP. Against conventional wisdom, raising or lowering them in this small amount does not affect the height of the imaging. I don't know about the mids being affected by your gargantuan chairs that you stole from the set of Land of the Giants.

Just as a thought, get someone to build you a speaker switcher.
Try testing these things a/b and you will find many of your observations will change, if you are honest with the results.

I need a better drawing … with a dimensioned floor plan … then I might understand/see the issue. Right now I’m not really getting it..

My only real takeaway is that your current seating is one of the issues given the room. What if you gave up on the theater seats and went with a couch.

Pictures would make all the difference. I thought i posted something some time ago. My original room photos are no longer on the gallery since it was redone.
I just had time for a quick 'text' drawing.

Giving up the seats?
Not likely. The wife wouldn't have it and dammit, they're crazy comfortable. Great sleepers!

I suspected you might not go for that given all your doing to keep them

Well that and to undertake all these changes is going to be about 3 to 5 grand beyond our original budgeted allocation.

Incidentally i took another look at the possibility of using on walls. I'm a bit hesitant because of the necessity to place them 'permanently, but given the sitting locations and the size of the media cabinet, there would be definite refractions as part of the speaker would be blocked by the cabinet corners for opposite seats (i.e. right speaker would be partially blocked by the media cabinet for people in the left seat and vice versa).
Unsure if the centre channel on-wall would have similar issues with the media cabinet.

Spoke with Ian this week though about the overall plan, what we're trying to do. Step A comes before replacing B and before buying C so...this will take a month or more.

Speakers finally ordered!

HT
M60s (tentative)
VP180
EP500
QS8 x2
QS10 x2

Other
LFR880 (tentative)

We are going to test out the LFR in both rooms, HT and main floor. Although the 880s are likely too big for the HT, i think we can assess the omni effect sufficiently. This will also be tested on the main floor. It's possible we could keep the 880s for the HT and send back the M60s, or the reverse. If the 880s fill a role for the main floor, we might send back the 880s for a pair of 1100s instead.

Hoping to have a chance to A/B the older M60Ti with the newer v4s; time allowing (it's the busy hockey and swimming season). I may also be able to get two other very accomplished stereophiles in on the A/B sessions.

Per some suggestions, we'll also be moving our media cabinet out from under the tv to another wall and will be placing the centre channel on a stand instead. This should open up more reflections off the back wall and reduce the boxyness that has resulted so far from the current config. It will also clean up the front look a bit and help us finalize the decor on the wall where the cabinet will go. Planning to possibly add some absorbing art to compliment the heavy drapes on the opposite wall with the french doors. Maybe something like one of these:
https://www.thequietroom.ca/product/cp1919

https://www.thequietroom.ca/product/parametric-wall-covering

https://www.thequietroom.ca/product/acoustic-panel-with-bars-pearl-on-taupe

Small change to the order, having the speakers finished in semi-gloss!
I so recommend this to anyone getting these speakers. It makes the colours so much more vibrant.

If I ever do the wood finishes I’ll keep that in mind.

I will post some pics in the 'colour finishes' thread and link them here. Should be a few weeks yet.
In the meantime, i'm setting up A/B listening tests with a few other speakers here in the house atm.

My LFRs shipped today so maybe you will see yours heading out before long.

Nevermind. Shipment was cancelled by axiom for some reason.

Maybe they're shipping it to me?
LOL

They just wanted to mess with my mind.

They had the wrong tracking numbers. Order shipped.

Email came today.
Speakers are on the way.

I'm working on a two box Sonos setup to do A/B testing with the LFRs. I'll be setting up a more standard speaker switch box for testing the M60Ti with the v4s. Hopefully if i have time i'll be able to do some listening tests with the new M60s, LFRs and the other speakers in-house (Tannoy D700 and ADS 1590).

Very nice. Looking forward to hearing your impressions on each set up.

Speakers tentatively arriving today but then we had a blizzard last night so....

A little snow shouldn't stop them.

Well it did.
Nothing arrived yesterday.
This morning i just received 5 of 11 packages; the two LFR880s but no DSP (yet), the VP180, EP500 and only one M60.
[sigh]
Aside from trying the VP180 or sub, i still don't have enough components to start any listening comparisons this weekend, not unless Fedex has another truck out there yet to come sometime today and of course i'm gone for hockey from 2 until about 7 today. Fedex conveniently and quietly changed the arrival date from Friday to Monday yet the status still says 'on time'. Well of course it's still on time if you keep moving the goal posts.
Kind of a weird way to run the expected arrival dates.

On a side note, i appreciate the solid packaging for the speakers but is there a way to get rid of using the plastic strapping?
I know metal staples are commonly used for heavy packages and in the least i can toss those staples into general metal recycling bins. This plastic is going into a landfill, forever.

And an hour after i typed that the second truck showed up with the remaining packages, but Fedex says they are still coming on Monday!
lol

Congrats on getting the remaining packages today. I sure wouldn't have held my breath.

I wasn't bothered if they would have come in Monday. So busy this weekend with hockey, i have little time to do much.
Tomorrow, hockey 11-2 then again in the evening. I'm hoping to at least unpack the M60v4 and do an easy test run vs the M60Ti.
On Monday i'll get around to hooking up the LFR on the main floor. I'll be testing against existing speakers. Later i'll bring them down to the HT and test them vs. the M60s.

Right now the upstairs hallways are filled with big boxes. Eleven to be exact.

Still working through some unboxing. Been a crazy busy weekend with hockey.

Got the M60s v4 out and tested against the M60 Ti.
Got the LFR880 out and tested against ADS 1590 (tomorrow testing against the Tannoy D700s).
Got the VP180 out tonight. As i do with all new speakers, i run pink noise and check that all drivers are functioning. One midrange on the VP180 is not. Swapped it with the other working midrange. Still nothing. Says the xover, internal wiring are fine so likely the driver is DOA. There were no noticeable loose or disconnected wires around the driver housing. Contacting Axiom service.

Hopefully tomorrow i can get the sub hooked up and the four surrounds tested for any malfunctions. At some point i'll toss up a review of all the speaker tests and the testing methods
.
An early preview of the old vs. new M60...i'm not sure i like the new revised sound. Feeling rather on the fence about it. Was expecting something very different but you can only really nail down the differences in an A/B test. I thought something very different the last time i heard v4s, but there was no A/B testing, just an off the cuff listening session.

We had a customer on the fence about their living room install just after setup. Sounded pretty flat and grainy. We left with the customer to deal with other items for a few hours. Upon return the speakers had changed and they were thrilled. Glad for it. Lots of holes to deal with otherwise…..

Maybe hold off on final crtitical judgement until you are sure they have run in a bit. Just in case (even if you dont believe in it. Nothing to lose.). Dealt with a bunch of them now. They need time. Few hours at moderate volume at least.

I agree that break in is needed. My LFRs are still stretching their legs and I’ve played about 20 hours of music and movies so far. I would also recommend changing the dsp through the near and far settings. Where I don’t have any walls up yet I have found the imaging to be a lot better on “far 2” setting.

I appreciate the note, but unfortunately i do not subscribe to the belief of speaker break in. Axiom tests each speaker before it goes out the door in a few ways and i recall Ian saying to me during my first factory tour that any break in would occur in the first few seconds of a driver oscillating at thousands of reps. That aside, the character i'm hearing with the new M60 (v4) is the same character i hear with the LFR880. The LFR were refurbs and as such, long broken in by anyone's standards.

Now i do believe that this character difference stems from the crossover and driver changes they've made over time. My M60s are Ti which were followed by v2, v3 and v4 (not all revisions had major hardware changes though). Axiom speakers long had a reputation for being bright to the point of harsh, edgy which people ascribed to its metal drivers and tweeter (because metal should sound harsh and tinny right? {sigh}). I observed this brightness the first time i ordered them as well and waited it out a few weeks listening to let myself adapt to the new sound (my old reference was a Panasonic built Technics system that had a 3-way driver bookshelf). I had still found the highs to be too high and at the time Axiom would provide people with a resistor you could connect inline to the tweeter to reduce its output by a couple of dB. Ultimately bright recordings were still hard on the ears at 'reference' SPL and i know they were working on taming some of this. I would say they accomplished that, but almost too much?

I came across an article online that defines my thought on recessed midrange and vocals vs. a more forward, perhaps bright, speaker.
https://audioaural.com/should-treble-be-higher-than-bass-the-3-reasons-why-you-should/
Reasons 2, 3 and 4 are exactly my thoughts. If the upper midrange and vocals get muddied because they are not prominent enough, they get lost in the music.
I remember hearing Oasis for the first time on the Axiom system and at the time, compression of songs was a big thing. The music was so loud in comparison to the vocals that the result was what one can describe as distortion. There's just some Oasis songs i cannot listen to much at all. BrenR once explained this many moons ago in a manner that was easily understandable and i don't really recall anymore (paraphrasing).

Anyway, I have a stereophile friend coming over today to give a listen. Also had the wife listen to each comparison as well. I'll post something specifically on these trials at some point once all the notes are done. They won't be pages upon pages of details on microdynamic idiosyncrasies though. I'm generally listening for
-bass (things like tightness, boomy/accuracy),
-midrange (accuracy/details, clarity/muddy),
-upper and vocals (clarity, harshness),
-soundstage (depth, wideness, rich/thin).

The hard part about comparing is that the reference sound changes each time. One can compare M60 to a Tannoy, but then compare the ADS to the LFR and you cannot relate that to the M60/Tannoy test until you pit the M60 vs the LFR, etc. Without a standardized scoring system, one could not easily go back and state "yes the M60 has the lowest bass score, the LFR has the highest midrange clarity" etc. rather than "the M60 has more bass than the ADS, but the M60 has less bass than the Tannoy" and make the assumption that the ADS therefore would have less bass than the Tannoy, but until you compare the two directly, it isn't always that cut and dried.

One thing i should add though, the new Axiom wood veneer finish looks fantastic and is our preference over the vinyl wrap. We got many compliments in the past on the vinyl wrap. People didn't know they were not wood. However, the real wood just looks authentic when put side by side. The vinyl wrap Boston Cherry almost looks a bit brown orange in comparison though the vinyl could be changing a bit over time especially with any light exposure.

IMO the semi-gloss should be the standard finish going out the door!
It just makes the finish and colours so much richer, just makes the colour absolutely pop compared to the matte/satin finish!

Agreed on the finishes. Look great! In a theater satin is the way to go for reflection control. I went with high gloss in my 2ch room. Nice looking for sure.

Here is an article you may find interesting regarding response preferences. It is on my list to read fully. I admit I cherry picked info and mean to get back to it….

https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17839

I found the satin to have about the same amount of reflection as the semi gloss. I could see how a full gloss would be more reflective though as that's what we have on our main floor media cabinet. It isn't as distracting as it might be on a pair of speakers especially since we have a large picture window opposite the speaker wall. The semi gloss really is the sweet spot. The difference with the satin finish for its overall "pop" was astounding. IMO it really makes it looks even more professional a finish.


Actually that is interesting. I looked through the relevant sections as well. Cherry picking the relevant sections is really all you need unless there is other info that is a must to understand the whole document, but in this case, pieces of various info are pooled together more as a discussion on the whole topic as listed by the title. I don't need to read the section on sound fields in a specific room to understand the section on listener preferences in a home theatre.

As written by Dr. Toole in the reference you provided (J. Audio Eng. Soc., Vol. 63, No. 7/8, 2015 July/August); highlights/underlines added for emphasis:

Some Evidence of Listener Preferences in Home Theaters
Over the years a few investigators have attempted to identify advantageous room curve targets for small rooms. However the studies that the author is aware of have been compromised by a lack of adequate loudspeaker measurements and/or information about the room acoustics. No double blind listening tests appear to have been done so there are no trustworthy subjective evaluations. Consequently, the resulting targets can be challenged.

Research by Olive et al. [48] was distinctive in that the loudspeaker used was anechoically characterized, the room described [49], and high-resolution room curves measured. In the double-blind tests, listeners made bass and treble balance adjustments to a loudspeaker that had been equalized to a flat smooth steady-state room curve. The loudspeaker had previously received high ratings in independent double blind comparison tests, without equalization. Three tests were done, with the bass or treble adjusted separately with the other parameter randomly fixed, and a test in which both controls were available, starting from random settings. It
was a classic method-of-adjustment experiment. For each program selection, listeners made adjustments to yield the most preferred result.

In Fig. 14 the author has modified the original data to
separately show the result of evaluations by trained and untrained listeners. This is compared to the small room prediction from Fig. 13(a). The “all listeners” average curve is close to the predicted target, except at low frequencies where it is apparent that the strongly expressed preferences of inexperienced listeners significantly elevated the average curve. In fact, the target variations at both ends of the spectrum are substantial, with untrained listeners simply choosing “more of everything.” An unanswered question is whether this was related to overall loudness—more research is needed. However, most of us have seen evidence of such more-bass, more-treble listener preferences in the “as found” tone control settings in numerous rental and loaner cars.

More data would be enlightening, but this amount is sufficient to indicate that a single target curve is not likely to satisfy all listeners. Add to this the program variations created by the “circle of confusion” and there is a strong argument for incorporating easily accessible bass and treble tone controls in playback equipment. The first task for such controls would be to allow users to optimize the spectral balance of their loudspeakers in their rooms, and, on an ongoing basis, to compensate for spectral imbalances as they appear in movies and music.

The attenuated high frequencies preferred by the trained listeners stands in contrast to the preferences exhibited by those same listeners in numerous double-blind multiple-comparison loudspeaker evaluations. In those tests, it is the flat on-axis loudspeakers that are most highly rated... Is this a consequence of the different experimental methods: the different listener tasks?...Is a subtle but important difference awaiting an explanation.

A significant observation is that the results indicate a general preference for a steady-state spectrum that rises toward the low frequencies.

=====================================
All the highlighted points indicate that there is user preference in two primary ways; more bass and more treble. Most untrained listeners prefer more bass or "more of everything" yet trained listeners preferred an attenuated high end which was opposite the results of the blind tests of speaker evaluations where the flat curve came out as preferred.

I don't like heavy bass, but i do like the clarity of a bit of treble. As far as i know, i don't have any hearing damage and at least when i was younger, i could hear tones of 15kHz+ during my hearing tests. I don't like the harsh brightness of some speakers, sounds, song mixes, but i suspect i would be a person to want the tone controls to turn up the treble with some speakers a touch.

I’ve always had a preference for highs over lows. Bass needs to be balanced and not overwhelming. I love the sharp crisp sound of a hi-hat.

Still working on some sound testing.
All the frequency sweeps for the main floor and media room are done (see speaker comparison threads). Now moving to the media room for the remainder of sound comparisons. Will be bringing the LFR880 down there just to see what it sounds like but with the new surrounds and larger centre channel, the middle and backside sound are so filled in, i don't think the LFR would add much.

Still trying to determine if we'll keep the Ti versions over the V4. Was playing around with the Denon EQ settings for the V4s to see if i could boost the vocal clarity a bit. Had to wait though until a new driver came in to replace a faulty one on the VP180. Been 9 days without a working driver so i've lost time. Might need a small extension on the 30 day trial because of it.

Finally got the new replacement driver Friday. Have been testing sound mostly today.
Tried some movie clips, listening for dialogue, background noises. Used the V4 with and without some EQ settings for L/R and C via the Denon. I upped 4 frequency categories by 1-2dB or 0.5 dB and then turned the EQ on and off while listening to movies or music (in DD sound). I definitely like the enhanced EQ for most things. Some songs and movie passages it seemed to have little effect/difference unless i really cranked up the EQ.
So, knowing that either with the EQ or with the Audyssey curve, i can adjust the 'treble' a bit to tweak the V4 sound, i think i'll keep the V4s. The bigger centre channel makes a real difference and i need to have that blend with the mains.

The only drawback with all this is no longer listening to music in pure direct mode which turns off all EQ and plays only through the mains. I would have to settle with the more recessed sound in using that mode. However, this system is primarily HT and i rarely sit down there to listen to music anymore. That typically happens on the main floor or in my office. All that being said, i have enough space in the media room to get a second set of mains that i do prefer for music and i could just leave the speaker switcher hooked up to switch between the Axioms and whatever else i get.
It's a thought, possible option.

As for the new EP500 sub though, just wow. Massive improvement over the EP350. Some people might say the EP350 sounds like it has tighter bass but really, it is anemic compared to the EP500 which FINALLY makes the media room rumble! It presently is taking up everything below 50Hz and i can hear low notes that i definitely never heard before. I'm tempted to put the EP350 in the opposite corner to test out a two sub setup, but they are so different, i'm not sure it's worth even bothering.

Aside from the V4 tonal sound difference, the new VP180 is a huge improvement over the VP150. It just literally sounds bigger; more bass, more vocal output, wider soundstage. It only makes sense that the centre channel be just as big as the mains when it carries so much of the sound in Dolby Digital surround modes.

The new QS10s are big. Did i need them?
Probably not.
I think QS8s would have been just fine for the room size but they don't overpower the two QS8s and provides slightly more cued sounds to the sides. It was definitely a good idea though to keep QS8s for the back surrounds considering the limited space behind the lounges and proximity to the seated position. They needed to be smaller and subtle. In testing out the best locations, so far the DD suggested setup of 130-150 degrees from behind the seated position to the outside walls (https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/7.1-virtual-speakers-setup-guide/) sounds the most seamless with the QS10s positioned (above ear level about 1 foot) 90 degrees to the sides of the seated positions. I did try moving them inward as far as i could go with the limited cable lengths which brought the QS8s to just about above the listener head (didn't have enough cable to put them more to the centre but this would have also brought them within 2-3 feet of each other). They became more localized in these positions and rather pulled the surround sound away from the sides and rears to too much strongly just in the rear. It just didn't mesh as smoothly with the side surrounds. Thankfully the multi directional design helps to alleviate any strong directional sound.

I have yet to finish the setup to get all speakers dialed in for final level matching and Audyssey sweeps. After the sweeps are done i will test out the on and off preference here and as well, tweak the EQ setup or Audyssey curve to preference.

Last step is to test out the LFR880 against the M60 V4 in the media room just to hear the LFR effect in that room. Will happen sometime this week.
Listened to the LFR880 again this morning on the main floor vs. the ADS and the Tannoys. Interestingly, the Tannoys have the best balance of the three and if pushed to keep only one speaker, that would be the choice. The LFR effect is very tempting though. We like what it does.

So in reply to my own post, i had that second listen to the LFR880s in the media room and compared to the old M60 Ti or the newer M60 V4, it's just better. Thoughts on the comparison can be found here:
https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/u...arison-m60ti-vs-m60v4-lfr880s#Post444160

Finally the gear oggling is coming to an end.
New 4k TV? Check
New 4k compatible AVR? Check
Added rear surrounds? Check
New bigger centre? Check
Match new speaker additions or keep some old versions? Matching will be possible.

The one surprise is choosing to add the LFR880s to the media room (if anything we figured maybe getting the 660s because of the room size, but i suspect the tonal character of the M80/880s is more equivalent than the M60/660s which is a better sound IMO so room size be damned, the 880s sound better). Consequently, i now need to sell the Anthem MCA30 and find a used 5-channel amp to drive the 4 channels needed for the LFR and the centre VP180 (the AVR will power the 4 surrounds).

The only remaining future addition might be a second sub but right now, the EP500 energizes the room way better than the old EP350 so aside from smoothing out that sound, i'm very pleased with the new sub performance. It can definitely rock that room.

Aside from a short update on a final amp swap, this thread is finally nearing a close.