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#432413 - 06/02/19 11:17 PM Which center for large room paired with M5HP's?
gmpirate Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 32
I am currently upgraded/changing up my home theatre in the great room. The entire space is 26 wide and 42 long. The 60 TV is centered at the long end. The room is divided into three sections (although continuous) with the family room in front of the tv, dining area in the center and the kitchen at the other end. Much of the time we sit in the dining area to watch a movie during dinner.

Currently we have a 2300 Denon, VP150, M22 on-walls, QS8s on the sides and a SVS PB12 Plus/2. I have a Denon 4500 coming in next week and am planning on replacing the M22 on-walls with M5HPs. Although I have M60s, I have no place for floor standing speakers. Because of windows to the left and right of the TV cabinet, the fronts will be at a distance of almost 9 away on both sides. My plan was to position M5HPs on top of the counter height cabinet on each side of the room angled in. My thought is that I need to the extra loudness to carry into the dining area. Right now I am maxing out the volume in my current setup which is barely right when sitting in the family room. Do the M5HPs sound like the right solution to get louder? Quiet dialogue can be difficult to hear in the dining area unless everyone stays really quiet.

The other upgrade I want to do is for the center. Sounds like the VP160 is very popular, but I wonder if the VP180 would make much of a difference in carrying sound into the greater room? And then should I get the HP version in either one? Will I need a separate amp to drive a HP? The center is in a cabinet which I will have to modify to fit the bigger speakers regardless.

thanks!
_________________________
Denon x4500h
ADA-1000 x3
VP160HP
M5HP x2
M3OW x2 sides
M2OW x2 rears
M3 In-Ceiling x4

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#432414 - 06/02/19 11:48 PM Re: Which center for large room paired with M5HP's? [Re: gmpirate]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 6739
Are you using this set-up for movies only or also for music? What sources are you using for movies and music?
_________________________
M2 coming
A-LFR/1000-8/500v4x2
1000-2,3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M3,M50 v4
had v2
N2,N3 maybe

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#432415 - 06/03/19 12:25 AM Re: Which center for large room paired with M5HP's? [Re: gmpirate]
gmpirate Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 32
Some music, but mostly for movie experience streamed from Apple TV or local hard drive. I have no interest in messing with physical media anymore. Music is from iTunes Music Match.
_________________________
Denon x4500h
ADA-1000 x3
VP160HP
M5HP x2
M3OW x2 sides
M2OW x2 rears
M3 In-Ceiling x4

Top
#432416 - 06/03/19 01:45 AM Re: Which center for large room paired with M5HP's? [Re: gmpirate]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 6739
The M5 is the best bookshelf choice you have. It's not as sensitive as the M3v4 and M22v4 but is higher fidelity than the M3 and has better bass response than the M22 (even when crossed to a sub). I've never heard the M22v4 but I'd expect the M5 to have better highs too because the mid is crossed lower on the M5.

The relatively low sensitivity of the M5 demands high power particularly for music. The extra 30W of power from the 4500 is a drop in the bucket for your application. To get 102dB peaks when you're in the dining room, you will need to pair the M5s with an ADA-1500.

I love my 160v4 but I'm also only 13 feet away compared to your 20+ feet. At the peak levels you need, a 180 is more appropriate. If you cross it at 80Hz, I expect you won't need the HP drivers. I do expect you to need a third ADA-1500 channel to drive whatever center you decide on.

I strongly urge you to trade in your QS8 for QS10. You can drive them off the Denon.
_________________________
M2 coming
A-LFR/1000-8/500v4x2
1000-2,3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M3,M50 v4
had v2
N2,N3 maybe

Top
#432417 - 06/03/19 11:12 AM Re: Which center for large room paired with M5HP's? [Re: gmpirate]
gmpirate Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 32
Wow, this all started with my trying to clean up the master bedroom by replacing the M2's and on-wall center with in-ceilings & in-walls to make my wife happy. Well, actually the thought process started with my M-Audio computer speakers going bad and thinking the M2's would ge a good replacement. I could just put my under powered Denon from the family room in my office and replace it with the x4500h. Done deal, right?

I get where you're going but it seems it may be overkill for my needs -- especially coming from what I have now. I get that the M5HP's need a separate amp, but not the 1000, but the 1500? And not one amp sharing the 3 fronts, but two separate 1500 amps??

I'm not an audiophile and any knowledge I learned about 12 - 15 years ago when I setup my home theatre is lost to me now. So, I'm pushing back here a bit more on instinct.

Why not a VP160 (non HP as you suggest) and a single 3 channel ADA-1000? Wouldn't that alone be a significant upgrade to what I have now?


Edited by gmpirate (06/03/19 11:49 AM)
_________________________
Denon x4500h
ADA-1000 x3
VP160HP
M5HP x2
M3OW x2 sides
M2OW x2 rears
M3 In-Ceiling x4

Top
#432419 - 06/03/19 01:07 PM Re: Which center for large room paired with M5HP's? [Re: gmpirate]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 6739
I was suggesting a single 1500 with three channels.

The advice I've given you is based on my in-house "testing" of M100s, M3s, M5s, M50s, 160, EP800 and QS10s - all v4. Also ADA-1000 and ADA-1500. I upgraded from M80, VP150, EP600 and QS8 - all v2. I've written extensively about the v4 and love them all!

I am in a 4,200 cu. ft. space with the fronts spaced 12 feet apart and I sit 13 feet away. In 2.1 using Spotify Premium or Tidal HD over my Chromecast Video (HDMI), my Onk is not good enough. With Netflix via my no-so-smart TV, my Onk is barely good enough. My Onk is more than adequate with Blu-Rays via my PS3.

There is of course no problem with you trying out just the new Denon to see if you will be satisfied. I am telling you though that 30 additional Watts is absolutely nothing given your sitting distances. You'll also be moving from M22s to M5s; the M5s are slightly less sensitive.

With regard to ADA-1000 vs. ADA-1500, the ADA-1000 in 2.1-channel is no better than my Onk when using the M5s. Multi-channel is of course a different story because the ADA can provide gobs (375W) of peak power to all channels whereas my Onk completely chokes. My Onk's power output is similar (and may be better) than the 4500.

So try just the 4500 and go from there.

P.S. When everyone was saying gobs of amp power are needed, I thought they didn't know what they were talking about. After all, my Onk never shut down so why would I need an external amp? It wasn't until I got the ADAs and started listening more critically, and took measurements to confirm, that I realized my Onk was compressing with high quality music. Most receivers employ dynamic compression to prevent shut-downs and distortion. Unfortunately the compression also reduces the peaks and that is just not as satisfying as listening to the full signal. The ADAs do not compress; they just gracefully temporarily turn off that channel's output letting you know their limit is being exceeded.

I find the ADA-1000 is a great choice with M5s if you are sitting 8 to 10 feet away in a small to medium-sized room. The 1000 is also a great choice with higher sensitivity speakers like the M100 for greater listening distances.
_________________________
M2 coming
A-LFR/1000-8/500v4x2
1000-2,3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M3,M50 v4
had v2
N2,N3 maybe

Top
#432426 - 06/03/19 05:29 PM Re: Which center for large room paired with M5HP's? [Re: gmpirate]
gmpirate Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 32
Ok gotcha. I read your original post wrong in regards to 3 channels vs a second amp . . . Glad we cleared that up :-)

I spoke with Debbie this morning. After reading your posts and speaking with her, I'm coming away with M5HP x2, VP160 (HP to match), existing QS8's, and two more QS8's for rears in the dining area. I'm leaning towards splitting the difference in powering the front speakers with a 3 channel ADA 1250. Although now that i am looking at the pricing again, I might just as well get the ADA 1500 since the big price jump really happens between the lower models.

My wife is not too keen on getting too loud, so Debbie suggested staying with the QS8's. The wife and price factor makes the amp choice difficult here too. The pricing says to me its either the 1000 or 1500. The 1500 is just not that much more than the 1250. But the wife may not let me take advantage of the 1500 often enough.
_________________________
Denon x4500h
ADA-1000 x3
VP160HP
M5HP x2
M3OW x2 sides
M2OW x2 rears
M3 In-Ceiling x4

Top
#432427 - 06/03/19 05:38 PM Re: Which center for large room paired with M5HP's? [Re: gmpirate]
rrlev Offline
local

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Boston Area
Perhaps a 2nd set of speakers for the dinning room when you want to fill the space. When listening up close for music or movie (turn off the extra speakers).
Just a thought.

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#432428 - 06/03/19 06:00 PM Re: Which center for large room paired with M5HP's? [Re: gmpirate]
gmpirate Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 32
I had considered that, but that would entail bringing fronts and centers forward. And that's probably getting a little more complex than I would like. Plus we are not planning on staying in this house so I don't want to customize too much.
_________________________
Denon x4500h
ADA-1000 x3
VP160HP
M5HP x2
M3OW x2 sides
M2OW x2 rears
M3 In-Ceiling x4

Top
#432429 - 06/03/19 06:01 PM Re: Which center for large room paired with M5HP's? [Re: gmpirate]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 6739
The QS10 can certainly go louder than the QS8 but that's not why I suggested it. The QS10 has higher fidelity and greater dispersion. It's a more expansive, fulfilling listening experience. It could be your wife is objecting to the not-so-good sound of the QS8. smile

One other thought. It's quite possible your wife is objecting to distortion from your Denon that may not be obvious until you wire in the 1500. You'd be surprised how happy your ears-brain are with high sound pressure when it's clean. smile

The 1500 is more costly mostly because the toroidal transformer doubles as a luxury cruise liner anchor and the capacitor bank is large enough to power Doc Emmett's Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor.

Remember you can trade in your current gear to offset your cost.
_________________________
M2 coming
A-LFR/1000-8/500v4x2
1000-2,3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M3,M50 v4
had v2
N2,N3 maybe

Top
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