Hey guys,
First, let me apologize in advance for the short novel to follow... (but at least it has pictures.) Dean (grunt11) suggested I post this over here in the Axiom HT forums, so I copied my first post and Dean's excellent reply (from AVS).
Any other thoughts would be appreciated. Sorry for pictures you may have seen on the Axiom speaker threads.
It was also recommended by my buddies in the other Axiom threads to try over here for some ideas and experience on 'best for the situation' speaker types and placement. I would also appreciate pointers on the best locations for my three subs. I just ran into a steal of a deal on the Paradigm Servo 15-a. I had no idea how subs were 'supposed' to sound. I have the two 10" KLH's so I keep them hooked up too.
I recently bought the Denon 1909 and am finding I may have been better with a 2809 for this 31'L x 23' W room. I have not nailed down my specific speaker choice for the 7.1 backs, because of differing opinions and ideas on various locations also affects the Direct Radiating (DR) vs. Reflective Radiating (RR)types.
I will be buying Axiom speakers, that is a given. I am trying to decide 'which' type of Axioms to order. I can order extra for testing. I just would have to pay the return freight ($30/ pair of small speakers).
- Front L/R M60's, 8 ohm (maybe stretch the 1909 (90wpc) to the 4 ohm M80's ??)
- Center VP150, 6 ohm
- Sides QS8 quad pole, 6 ohm (two tweeters firing at angles L & R, two 5 1/4" woofers firing up and down)
- 7.1 backs.... (DR) M2's or (RR) QS8's ????
(Zooming in a bit clarifies the diagram)
- If I put the 7.1 backs 16' behind listening position on back wall, I'd most likely go with M2 (DR) bookshelf's.
- The (RR) QS8's have kind of been less liked for the back wall because of:
1) concern the RR speakers might not be so effective 16' behind list. pos.
2) as you can see in the back wall photo, an up/down firing speaker would need to stick out from the kitchen cabinets, which would stick out like a sore thumb.
- This SBL location over kitchen cabinets and left (as viewing pic) of the white boxed in vent pipe has some issues being boosted 1.5dB over the SBR which already sounds boomy being directly in the corner. The SBR in the corner is temporary, until I KNOW where I want to make holes in the wall.
- The idea of mounting a 6.1 QS8 5' directly behind the primary listening position with tweeters at ear height was mentioned. This one possible mid room 6.1 mounting location would be at the end of the bar/counter. *** Is this a good or bad location for a quad pole RR 6.1 speaker??? (a cardboard mock up is shown)
More pictures to give you an idea of how the rest of the room is laid out for sound field considerations. The small bookshelf speakers in the pics are a bunch of speakers I had from my old house's music in several rooms. The last picture shows the Klipsch Cornwalls I've had for 26 years (since new). My wife has patiently waited five years for me to warm up to the idea of their leaving the family!
Good bye old friends....
A very big thanks to you guys over on this end of the forums. Glad to have a reason to visit.
Dave
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reply from
grunt11 on my AVS thread...
First, awesome room Dave!
Your right that the 2809 may have been a better choice mainly because it has pre-outs for all the channels which would allow you to use a separate amp. That is a big room and if you wanted it louder than a receiver could handle a separate amp would be the way to go.
FRONTS: Denons are very good at driving the 4 ohm M80s so if it’s the M80s you really want then get them. I have a Denon 2807 driving 3xM80s and 4xQS8s to over 100 dB w/o any problems. As a rule you should select your speakers first and then get the electronics to match them. Even if you’re stuck with the 1909 it will need upgrading just due to technology changes long before you will wear out the speakers.
You might experiment with moving your L/R mains farther apart so they provide a wider soundstage for your fairly wide seating. This will also help them blend better with the surrounds. It may also help them sound better getting them away from the screen which they will reflect off some. One caveat to moving them to far apart is that the sound can become disconnected from the picture. So when something happens on the edge of the screen it may sound like it’s coming from several feet outside the screen. Some people don’t like this but others prefer a wider soundstage. Looks like you have room to experiment so I would.
CENTER: I always recommend vertical center speakers if someone can fit them over or under the screen. That’s a wide room and a vertical center will give you better off axis performance. The M22 is a near perfect match to the M80s, not sure which Axiom bookshelf best matches the M60s but I also imagine it’s the M22. Besides being a better speaker IMO, the M22 is also less expensive than the VP150.
Surround Sides: QS8 for sure. The location looks great. I would mount them anywhere from a few feet up above ear level to near the ceiling just make sure to leave at least 4 inches, preferably a little more for he top driver to breath.
Surround Backs: Either the M2s or QS8s will work as they all have the same drivers, which to choose depends IMO on where you put them. Because of the width of your room 7.1 might work better than 6.1.
If you go all the way to the back wall I would prefer the M2s. Their directional design will better aim the sound toward your listening position were as the QS8s might become to diffuse that far back. I you wanted to use QS8s in the back I think it would be better to ceiling mount them closer to the listening position (Axiom makes some nice adjustable mounting brackets). The suggestion to mount a single 6.1 QS8 at the end of the counter looks good however I would prefer it up at the same height as the surround sides. It probably wouldn’t be an issue but it might cause some pans to change in height. If you can get a couple ladders I would experiment with the various locations to find what you like best and then nail it down. I did this and found that in the smaller room I was just in 5.1 with the QS8s in the corners actually worked better than 7.1 because of how close they were to the wall for reflections.
I have tried both QS8 and M22 back speakers and found that when sitting close about 10 feet or less I prefer the QS8s, however as they move farther back I prefer the M22s. Whether to use direct radiating or multi-polar rear speakers is a huge debate for some people. For the most part it comes down to personal preference with speaker distance the deciding factor for me. This would be a good place for your idea to buy both to try out and return the ones you prefer least. Careful though! I thought I was going to do that and ended up liking the M22s so much I kept them as zone 2 speakers.
To recap I would try this:
Fronts: 2xM80s
Center: 1xM22
Sides: 2xQS8s
Rears: order 2xQS8 and 2xM2s and keep what works best.
Hope this helps. If you want the best advice on Axiom speakers you should post this over in the Axiom forum and you may get more responses from those who actually own the speakers.
Sorry my novel had no pictures.
Cheers,
Dean
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