Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Out with the new and in with the newer

Alright, here's what I'm going with:

• active LFR1100 in walnut low gloss
• 1000-8
• dual EP500 in walnut low gloss
• Air Freedom
• on-wall M5 in rosewood low gloss
• upgraded QS10HP to walnut low gloss
• upgraded EP800v4 to walnut low gloss

I'm hoping I won't need a centre. If I end up needing one after testing the active LFRs, I'll get a 180HP in walnut low gloss.

The dual 500s will be placed up front and fed from the dual LFR DSPs. The 800v4 will be fed from the Onk.

Chaaaching!

I'll be interested to hear your review of the M5 on-walls. Been toying with the idea of purchasing a pair.

Shaun, I suggest you try them. Everyone I've talked with privately and all the posts I've seen about the M5 bookshelves or in-walls, say very good things.

I decided to not do the M5 on-walls. The M5s on stands are just perfect for me. Maybe I'll do actives in the future. There are a few reasons for my decision. First, I was drawn in by the real wood (mine are vinyl oak) and was dreaming about rosewood. I've been advised by a couple of friends to not do it because they'd detract from my primitive weapons walls. I can now see their point. Second, I love how they sound and know darned well if I go on-walls, the soundstage will not be as magical. I was reminded again this morning of how much I love their sound when I was listening to Vinyl Jazz on iHeartRadio. The tunes out of them were incredibly seductive. Third, someone very high up at Axiom told me in a very polite way to stop f*c$ing with my room because it looks and sounds awesome.

If you have to go with on-walls, I suspect you will really like the M5s.

More like SNAP! As in Mojo's brain snapped. I'm over the moon with my entire system and now I'm about to take a huge risk with something completely different and new.

Mojo, thanks for the reply. I was thinking of the M5 on-walls as I have the VP180 on-wall centre channel which is a beast. How do you like the M5s on stands for regular stereo listening? Is there enough bass or is a sub woofer required?

Dude, no sub required. You don't need on-wall fronts just because you have a 180 wall mount. With the 180 wall mount all you lose is some bass because it doesnt have to image stereo like two fronts.

I've said so much on here about the M5s - all of it so good. Axiom hit it out of the park. Blows my M80v2 away. Here is a link to my review titled "holography and black magic" part way down the page:

https://www.axiomaudio.com/reviews/index/list/product/930/

Trigger pulled. The Freedom and Rosewood M5s will have to wait. Active LFR 1100s, dual 500s up front fed from the dual DSP boxes, two QS10s - all in walnut satin low gloss. A 1000-8 will feed all LFR drivers except the woofers. I'll be trying 1500-3 and 1000-3 for the woofers and center. All of this will be mated with the 800v4 located behind my MLP, my 160v4 and my Onk. The QS10 will be fed from a 1000.

As far as I'm concerned, when Ian posted the listening window and sound power curves for the active LFR, he left all other competition in the dust. Even more impressive is the macrodynamics these are spec'd to deliver and I know from the M100s, the microdynamics are already there and will be even more fully exposed given the lack of passive filters.

And like Craig has said, the value is simply unbeatable.

Shaun, I have my M5 bookshelves 13.5 feet apart in my living room. I am sitting 12 feet away on the diagonal. With a Chromecast Audio feeding them through a 1000, I am hitting 103.5dBC peaks. The 1000 can't do no more through that Chromecast. The soundstage is huge, instrument position is easily discernible, it is clean, it is non-fatiguing and the bass is well-controlled and full - no sub required. I know with the 1500 feeding them, they could hit 107dBC peaks cleanly. They will go higher but then I can hear woofer distortion and depending on the song, mid-woofer distortion.

For reference, on my main system, the M100/800v4/1500/firestick/Onk can hit 108.5dBC peaks at 12 feet away on the same tune when the Onk is set to 0 (reference). The system can be driven to peaks of 110 clean dB and as high as 112 with some acceptable distortion from the HP drivers. At 110 it becomes painful.

A really nice rocking level on my main system is -5 on the Onk. That delivers 104dBC peaks in 2.1. That level doesnt apply to all songs. Some I have to turn up to +12 and that delivers an incredible and immensely overwhelming performance!

Mojo congrats on your purchase ... looking forward to hearing what you think ...

On your M5 setup it looks like you have them on you wide wall.
I'm planning on trying that my self and was a bit concerned on the acoustic front as I never setup a system for imaging that way before. It must be working well for you even though that bay window looks ominous for sound. Anyway, now I know why your always looking out of it ..

Rich, thanks.

The conventional wisdom from books, boards, etc is not to go long. I agree with that if what you are looking for is soundstage depth. If you are looking for soundstage width, length is the way to go. Length can result in more bass problems though. When I listen loud, I have to cut the bass by 6dB. Port plugs don't cut it for me because they affect the fidelity.

With the M5s, I can hear width on some material well out to the side walls. As for depth, it's certainly not like my main room but if you haven't heard my main room, you'd find the depth exceptional. I have absolutely no complaints for a living room system. The majority would accept this for their main system for sure.

I had the M3s, M5s, M50s and M100s set up across the width and the backs 6 feet out from the front wall. The depth was incredible! It was like an acoustic lens...LOL! But no width.

This set-up allows me to laugh at neighbors and view the art and tools on my walls while enjoying terrific sound.

Guys and gal, I can't help myself. I think I'll move to three more 800s for a total of four.

It only money.
Enjoy.

Mojo I know I’m late in suggesting this but I think that 4 EP600s would be the way to go unless your Out to impress ...

I hear you. Nope, never out to impress. Everyone knows that no matter how good stuff looks, or how big or how heavy, if it don't sound good to me, back it goes!

Given the new info on the 600 I’m all over it (same, or perhaps a tiny bit better then the 8, just not as loud) ... for me its an easy trade off as my room is less then 3200 cu ft.

I have to admit I did like the impresive statement of the 800 although after the holy cow factor wears thin ... 4 of them might be a bit of an overwhelming presence in the decor.

I will drown in a sea of 800s if that's what it takes to please me. Decor be damned.

I want to swim in a sea of transparent, permeating sub-bass and feel 'nad tickling and gut punching as I surrender my few remaining brain cells to acoustic spanks.

Then I think you should buy 8 and stack them

Why stop at 8?

Exactly, Why stop at 8 ... you go for it ...

Uhmmm...I can only stack 1.8. I need to sink the basement lower into the creek running under my house.

Well if your gonna start modifying the house maybe Ian will come up with one of those “back to the future” subs ... you know the scene.

Ian built that sub. While he was water-skiing. Barefoot. On one leg. And teeth only; no hands.

With Craig straddling his shoulders.

My future pair of active LFRs will be fed by a 1500 for the woofers and a 1000-8 for everything else. According to the ADA manual and specs on the Axiom site, I'll have 2300 continuous and 7500 dynamic Watts to share between the pair. The break-down for each speaker is as follows. The first number is the continuous rating and the second is peak:

a. woofers: 650/2250
b. front mids: 187.5/375
c. rear mids: 187.5/375
d. front highs: 62.5/375
e. rear highs: 62.5/375

Although the 1000 can share 1000W/3000W amongst the drivers it's feeding, it can only feed about 188/375 to each mid array. I expect therefore my system to ultimately be limited by the power available to the mids.

I don't expect to have any SPL limitation at my 12 foot listening distance particularly given the 800 that will be fed from my Onk and the two 500s being fed off of each DSP. But say I do end up putting a 7500W peak in with no subs. My system will only handle a 1500W mid-range peak (375*4) before some channels of the 1000 go into protection. That's only about 20% mid content (1500/7500) and I've read typical music is 44% mids. Now I don't know where that range starts and stops so the 1500/HP drivers may take some of the load below 250Hz.

Anyway, even if I had more power available for the mids, I'm not sure they can take it. I figure it's the mids that are the weakest compression link in typical music.

Not that I expect to be anywhere close to a practical limit in my application mind you.

My suspicion, and I don't have much data to go by, is that the 5.25" mid-woofer is good to 150W continuous/400W peak from 250Hz to 2.2KHz.

That means each mid array on the active 1100 can take 300W continuous which means a 1500 is needed to get all you can out of the mids.

Thought I’d bring my reply over to this thread with regards to my active 1100 amplification situation...

After a lengthy discussion with Debbie who pulled in Ian, we settled on the best starting point being repurposing my monolith 7 for the front 6 channels and getting an ADA 1000-4 for the rears. I was trying to cut this to the bone and had the idea of just using my monolith to work the front 6 channels and adding the rears later. Ian explained why that would not work with the LFRs and the need for rear amplification.

The monolith and 1000-4 do have a 1db gain difference but because I can split them front vs rear, Ian pointed out that I can use the DSP to balance that out.

Can’t say enough good things about Ian, Debbie and crew for all the help and time taken to get me squared away and I am certainly looking forward to getting my paws on these speakers!

David, thanks for responding. It sounds like you're in good shape. Is this 2.1? If so, what are you doing for subbage?

This is going to be a 2.0 setup for music listening.

No $$$ for subbage :|

Maybe one day I might be able to add an EP600...

I think you will be just fine. I've driven my M100v4 with a 1000-3 to 107dBC clean peaks at 12 feet away in 2.0.

I’m hopeful that will indeed be the case. I believe my biggest problem (other than finding a waf approved piece of furniture capable of holding the future amp weight, which took a while to solve) is figuring out which music is going to make these suckers truly shine and assemble a worthy demo playlist.

I'm very worried about the music choices as well - and sources!

That monolith appears to be a stunning choice. Even though it's spec'd at 28dB voltage gain, at least two sources I've read claim it's closer to 29. That makes it an even better match for the ADA.

Appreciate that input. The HT will have to live with 2 unpowered channels for a while but it’s a small sacrifice long term.

For sources I’m considering getting some nice flac albums, possibly from hdtracks, and would consider an LP purchase if it’s of sufficient quality.

I’m open to suggestions

I don't know what a good source is for finding high quality recordings. By that I mean preservation of dynamic range and soundstage. I've been building up my own playlists of what I think is well-recorded music on Spotify but I am no expert. I just let my ears guide me.

Just today I found the following database. From that I picked out Patricia Barber's Black Magic Woman and it's a real winner. Anything by her is if you like her music:

http://dr.loudness-war.info/

What players are you planning to use? Craig just bought himself a $40,000 CD player...LOL!

When I try the actives in the living room, I plan on using a $35 Chromestick Audio connected to a Pioneer for pre-amplification.

In the main room, I'll be using an Amazon Firestick 4K through my Onk, or a PS3 for CDs or a Yammie tape deck.

Music will come in through Spotify and of course CDs and tapes.

Many will giggle their guts out at my ridiculous choices of sources particularly given the speakers.

Also check out the following link:

http://dynamicrangeday.co.uk/award/

I believe we have the same opinion with regards to what constitutes a good quality recording.

The 4K Firestick is a very capable little device. I was very impressed with how much it’s improved over the original.

I will have two sources hooked up to the actives. An Axiomair transformer which will allow for my flac files, Spotify Connect, multi room audio and also serve as my pre. For when I want to sit down and be more deliberate about my listening I have a respectable turntable setup. It’s probably more than I needed but it creates an environment where you can’t do 10 things at once, like you can when you’ve got Spotify playing in the background. The whole purpose is to sit back, preferably with a nice drink, disengage from all the distractions and enjoy the music.

Thanks for the links, that’s great information!

Check out the album Grace for Drowning by Steven Wilson. I'm not a fan of the music but I can't help but listen given the recording quality.

Also To the Bone by the same artist.

Mojo, just about anything from Steven Wilson is worth a listen. I have seen him solo and with Porcupine Tree. His style of music is not for everyone however the musicianship is top drawer.

As you say, his style of music is not for everyone. I am finding out the best recorded music is not the kind of music I dig.

My son just told me he's been digging through the dr. loudness database and has discovered all the music he likes is in the red. The poor kid doesn't know what real music sounds like. His brain's been fried in that regard. LOL!

You should check out The Pineapple Thief (Your Wilderness & Dissolution). Gavin Harrison on drums (King Crimson & Porcupine Tree).

That is an amazing find. I wish they could all be recorded like that.

I am going to see The Pineapple Thief in Vancouver mid December. Check out their live concert dvd. It's a beauty!

I spent all last night listening to them. And part of the morning. Absolutely unreal. That was in my livingroom with the M5s. I thought to myself it can't get any better. Then I remembered I had a system downstairs.

So much bigger, deeper and wider stage, clearer, more real on the big system!

I sure hope they sound the same in concert.

Bruce Soord (The Pineapple Thief) just released a solo album "All This Will Be Yours." A very good album as well.

You're correct, sir! Similarly good.

2x6 suggested The Accountant soundtrack. I've always been suspicious of 2x6's ear-brain system but no more.

Very good one, Phil. Really enjoying it.

Boom boom! Percussion rich!

Rich, do you have the active LFR+dual DSP+ADA1000+ADA1500+dual EP500+800 checkout procedure ready yet? Mine are arriving soon you know.

Mojo,

I'd sure you're much more qualified than me on setting up, assessing, and check out a system. I'd say you're anticipating and getting excited over celebrating Christmas a little early. Take some valium or perhaps a couple of fingers of whiskey ... You need to rest up for the big day.

Rich

I can't be under the influence of alcohol when I receive the LFRs and associated gear. However, following the completion of my successful site acceptance test, I plan to imbib on the 12 year old Bunnahabhain islay single malt scotch whiskey gifted to me by my Dutch buddy. Such imbibment shall take place with my select group of close, dear friends as we graze on a selection of meats, cheeses, fruits, breads and sweets. Following the grazing, we shall each select a primitive weapon from my walls and prance merrily into yonder forest to chase coyotes and cougars as we howl at the moonlight.

My active LFR driver polarity tester is ready. This is one of the 381 functional tests I'll be executing in addition to 193 performance tests. I have a laser interferometer and gas chromatograph coming for some of the tests.

ahhh, looks like if that speaker doesn't pass the polarity test your gonna stab it to death with that knife ... you don't fool around do you ...

Rich, I'm sorry I didn't give you the full context. I used the edged implement in the photo above to strip the battery connector wires. The implements below are the ones that will be used to exact justice on the drivers. They are ordered, top to bottom, in increasing driver size.

All my speaker cables are built. Time domain reflectometry reveals all cables are 0.06 Ohms and under. 0.04 Ohms is attributed to the conductors and 0.02 Ohms to the connectors.

When I pump 7500 peak Watts into the LFRs, I'll be losing roughly a mere 75W on the cables. I am happy with those results.

I got everything working an hour ago. Not sure why I need subs...LOL!

...or why you are wasting listening time posting! LOL

I'm at work so I can pay for all this. I was posting from yet another meeting I should have declined.

Time for initial impressions after 15 minutes of listening without any calibration or tweaking of any kind. This is a temporary set up in my average-sized living room. Eventually this entire system will be moved to the man-cave

I am astounded with the walnut natural satin (low gloss). The finish is absolutely stunning. I can really appreciate this finish after being around so many vinyl-clad speakers all my life. I can't wait for my peeps to see them in person. One of my peeps is getting the M5 in the same finish and I know she'll be overcome with emotion when she sees them.

The DSPs and 1000-8 were easy to set up. I made the RCA and speaker connections one channel at a time and documented my amp wiring and set it on the 1000 for future reference. As I connected each channel, I listened to it. It was a strange experience listening to each driver array by its lonesome.

I am using my Pioneer A9 to drive the woofers. The A9 is good for 70W average into 4 Ohms. My Chromecast Audio is connected up directly to the DSPs. While this provides high enough volume for most tunes, there are songs with high dynamic range that could benefit from more gain. For this reason, I will likely connect the Chromecast to the Pioneer and the Pioneer to the DSP. I will use another ADA to drive the woofers.

As soon as I listened to the active LFR bass, I realized what every other speaker I've ever listened to has been missing. The transient response is a thing to behold. It's like my Pioneer has this incredible grip on the woofers and will not let them misbehave. With bass like that, subs are definitely not needed for music unless you're into pipe organ.

The mids and highs are ridiculously clear and dynamic. I expected them to be far more dispersive with a wider soundstage than the M5 and M100 but have not found that to be so.

Along those lines, I expected the depth and width of the soundstage to be much larger than the M5 and M100 but it's not. The width is the same and there isn't as much depth. I tried all the positions on the BGC control but I hear nothing but more or less volume - no difference in soundstage. Toe in of varying amounts also doesn't help. As you can see by the photos I posted, my room is nowhere near damped. While this is disappointing, I realize this journey has barely started.

My system is plagued by noise which is very audible on quiet passages from my 10 foot MLP. I noticed this as soon as I connected the mids and tweeters. My interconnects are bottom of the barrel quality so I do suspect those. I have a couple of higher quality pairs so I expect to get to the bottom of this quite quickly.

Summing up my initial thoughts, impeccable appearance, incredible clarity and dynamics, the jury is still out on the LFR aspect which is supposed to result in deep and wide soundstage.

While I was driving home, I had a thought about the stage width. As soon as I got home, I toed them in so they were crossing 3 feet ahead of my nose. BAM! Width is huuuge!

And I neglected to mention, they have completely disappeared! This is something I have not been able to achieve in my living room with any speaker. The closest was the M5. Still looking for depth though.

I am absolutely shocked that I don't need to EQ anything or diddle with the subs and I have this pristine, detailed rendition across the entire spectrum. This is in a room that you all know I've had terrible problems with in the lows and the highs.

Harman should ask Axiom for lessons in audio engineering.

I remember asking jakeman what "real" bass sounds like. He told me to listen to Take Five. That's been my yardstick since then. I've never heard it in the room like this. Just friggin incredible!

I really hate to say this but I have to. The M100s are total junk compared to these. Sorry, not even close.

OK, these are a real game changer. You can FEEL these without turning them up to ridiculous levels. And you can hear things that were totally cloaked in other speakers like the M100s. I think whoever "professionally" reviews these is in for a real shock. I really am not exaggerating.

Phil, I don't believe you've heard better than these. I think you don't know how to set them up properly. Get your ass on a plane and come here to listen.

These are the first real speakers I've had. Everything prior to this moment was nothing more than teasing. But I couldn't possibly know how good these are without experiencing all the prior garbage.

Mojo - had my 7th 14 hour day in the last 8 days. So all I can say is cool stuff!

A little harsh trashing v4's to make your A-LFR point ... but like Craig ...

I guess you like them then ... a 2nd thumbs up ...

What can I say, Rich? Sure I have all these passive v4 here and I've enjoyed them...until now. I will say this. I still have not heard imaging like the M5s image in my main room. Their imaging in that room is quite uncanny really. Perhaps though when I take the A-LFRs downstairs, they will be even better in that department.

One thing I do know is I want active M5s in the living room with dual 500s. The LFRs are too damned big for that room even though they sound fantastic. Once you've heard actives, there's no going back to passives.

I thought I heard clear triangles with the M5 and M100 until I heard these. Sure the passive v4 were miles ahead of the v2 but these are light years away.

Oh boy... reading all this makes my FedEx status even more difficult to digest:
CLEARANCE DELAY

;(

I’ll have to live through your commentary for a few more days Mojo!

You got a FedEx status? I was backing out to go to work today when the FedEx truck drove up. I'm looking at him and he's looking at me and I get out and approach him and say "You got something for me?" And he says "Oh yes sir. Many things. Can you help me please?"

I go to the back with him and see Axiom boxes toppled on top of each other and feared the worst. I asked him what he'd do if I wasn't there and he said "I would leave it right in front of your garage door, sir." LOL!

BTW, these are also the first Axioms that I can put right against the wall and the bass is just uncanny. Tight, thick yet fluid and oh so loaded with energy.

Are you sure it’s actives and not just LFR s ... bet what you might be asking for is an LFR in a M5 package ... active is a refinement. Craig might have more insight here ...

Maybe you are right, Rich. One thing I can try is to mute the rears and see what happens. BTW, I have not been able to get the "stereo everywhere" effect that Ian and Craig rave about. As soon as I shift away from my MLP, the stereo imaging collapses.

When I move these into the basement, I'll have more space there to experiment. That won't be for some time though. I want to get my fill of them upstairs first.

Rich, there is no question the rears add expansiveness to the soundstage and help them disappear. The fidelity I hear though isn't due to their LFR nature but rather the digital, active filtering. You will very easily hear details and imaging with these that are completely masked in Axiom passives.

Since Craig is too busy to give numbers, I'll start the math show. Sitting 10 feet away, with 1000-2 powering the woofers and 1000-8 powering all else, I'm getting 116dBC peaks. That was with my Pioneer cranked to the limit. This was straight 2.0.

I wasn't hanging around for that one so I can't tell you if it sounded clean or not but the whole house was ablaze. I also can't tell you if any of the ADA channels shut down. To say the bass was palpable is a big under-statement.

The bottom line from all this is the 1000 appears to be more than capable of powering these in my 4200 cuft space.

I just did a quick calc based on the published sensitivity of the actives. That 116dBC figure represented about 800 peak Watts per side. So according to the specs for the actives, they've got 3600 more Watts to go before they compress. Ears and brains will fry long before that. LOL!

I have to add here that with these speakers, a comfortable listening level to the song I used for peak testing is -30 on the Pioneer. So...tons of headroom.

That song is Hit the Road Jack.

https://open.spotify.com/track/2F1NPECOyqEyimPu5TEY8P?si=-QfepfKeTdC4a3ochJXtGg

The dual 500s add absolutely nothing to songs like the one above or Burning Down the House. They are indeed working but are simply not needed. And OMG, I never thought I'd say this about a pair of speakers but the bass is absolutely sublime!

Reading this isn’t making the waiting any easier but man I’m getting excited

Ok, the imaging in my terrible living room, with no calibration to speak of other than tweaking the speaker positions, is just crazy stupid good. In DSOTM Money, when the money is being ripped, I can actually "see" the tearing starting at the tweeter and expanding out as it's being torn. On the same album, I can resolve tiny details that are merely inches (degrees?) apart. Placing sounds behind or forward of each other is no problem whatsoever.

I'm just a sucker for audio VR. Lol!

I'll bet if one can get these far enough away from the front wall, the soundstage will be hugely deep. I'll be able to do this in my basement.

Recall I have zero EQ on because I have a legacy receiver. No EQ needed. Holy crap! I absolutely hate Ian and Andrew. You bastards!

The thing is guys, you can't possibly know what you're missing until you hear it. I thought the M5s and M100s were good. Lol!

I guess the M5s really are good compared to the KEF LS50 I recently heard at my place. Oops! Am I supposed to say that on boards?

CurvedAir, wait till you hear your first real bass out of a pair of speakers. And then pristine mids and highs.

Take your time though. Nothing worse than connecting woofer outputs to tweeters and have to deal with the ensuing ignition.

Mojo, not sure if this is in your wheelhouse but what does this sound like on your actives?
https://open.spotify.com/track/3DfmDN7WJ7XeoVL8s1H4Iw?si=CEXxxRFfSG2TO54kWinHVw

I’m especially interested as to when the double bass comes in..,

Let me give a listen.

I was listening to this at -30 and was averaging around 85dB at 10 feet away. Peaks were hitting around 94dB. Of course those may not be true peaks because my meter isn't professional grade.

She is in front and center just above tweeter level. When I say in front, I mean in front relative to a guitar to her right and a guitar further away to her left. All instrument positions are crystal clear but the recording venue appears to be boomy - enough to be annoying actually. The piano is off to her left and sounds "collapsed" rather than expansive. The best part of this recording is her voice.

It's quite possible that piano is angled into the soundstage but that's just me trying to put an image to sound.

Oh double bass..hang on...

1:21 if that's what a double bass is.

Thanks for the feedback!
Best I’ve had to listen are M60v2 with EP500 so looking forward to comparing notes.

The double bass is behind her.