I'm putting together a second home theater build and as a current Axiom owner (VP180v3, M60v2, QS8v2, M2v3, EP500v2), I'm going with Axiom speakers again (M100v4, VP180v4/VP160v3, On Wall M5s and/or M3 for surrounds and Atmos). But I'm undecided on the subwoofers. I'm planning to purchase 2 subs and I'm considering 2 EP800 (vertical) or 2 SVS Ultra-16. I have considered others, such as Seaton & PSA, but I live in Canada and I don't really want to deal with the CAD/USD exchange, shipping and warranty issues. SVS has a Canadian dealer that also offers free shipping so they are on par with Axiom, from that perspective.

Both subs would be placed on the front wall next to the front projection screen. I haven't yet determined if I will place them inside of or outside of the M100 mains. I'm thinking of placing them inside the M100 mains to avoid corner loading them. Also, I only have 30" from the wall on each side of the screen, and I think I'll likely mount the screen about 32-35 inches above the floor. So the height of the EP800 might be a problem.

The room is in the basement (concrete slab under plush carpet). It is an open basement and not a dedicated room, L-shaped. The main theater area will be about 14x14x9, with another 12x12x9 area behind (with some workout equipment) and open to another 13x16x9 room. So quite a bit of volume.

This will be used almost exclusively for movie and TV watching, with a little bit of music. Likely won't be played at extreme volumes, but will be played louder than upstairs. Maybe -10 to -5 from reference - occasionally at reference if it's just me I'm looking for good low end performance for movies at these listening levels. Only one row of seats (5 seats total, with 3 in prime watching spots).

The SVS Ultra-16 can be had for $3,500 CAD per unit (plus free shipping). That's listed price. Not sure if I can get a discount for multiples.

EP800 can be had for cheaper - I will be purchasing from Factory Outlet unless there are some B-Stock available (which there is one currently).

I don't have much experience listening to other subs other than my EP500. I listened to Jakewash's Ultra-13 about 10 years ago when I first got my EP500, but I can't recall much from that listening session.

Any thoughts or preferences? I would likely be happy with both. At the moment, I'm leaning towards the SVS simply because it isn't as tall as the EP800 and might be easier to place along the front wall without interfering with the screen. But it is more money as well.

Anyways - I'm just looking for any opinions to validate my own decision

Thanks!

Bryan

I have a pair of Rosewood EP-800s. Yes, they are large, tall & heavy but IMO you really can't go wrong with them, especially if the rest of your system is Axiom.

They are most impressive & therefore get my highest recommendation...

TAM

From what I've read, the Ultra-16 will go louder but not deeper than the EP800. As for linearity, I don't know.

Could you lie the EP800s down?

Jakewash brought the Ultra-13 to my place to contrast against my EP600v2.

Regardless of which you choose, I'd call both companies up to get the best deal. I'm pretty sure either choice will sound awesome.

Get both and write a review comparison!
I want to hear some real world opinions on that new 16 incher from SVS!

Cheers,

Yeah I 2nd that! because all keep seeing is the hype train over and over. The SVS certainly looks impressive, but as an owner of a SB2000 and PB2000 from them I personally feel SVS is overrated.

I have the EP500 but I also built my in-laws system which is all Paradigm with an SVS PC Ultra sub. I do like the PC Ultra, but find I like the sound of my EP500 better. However that's not a fair comparison as they are in drastically different theater rooms. One day It'd be fun to steal the PC Ultra for a weekend and do a head to head with the EP500 in my space. Unfortunately due to the SVS being in a basement and gravity not working in my favour, and general laziness this probably won''t happen.
I do want to upgrade to the EP800 however, but need to let the M5HP-OW upgrade settle in 1st!

2 sb13 ultras would load your space fine with opposing corner setup. Front right rear left. Your 1st order length mode is right at 20hz, so getting that extra room gain right where they fall off at 25hz will be a nice coincidence. Since your rear right is open to the rest of the L shape you will have to cheat your rear left corner sub away from the corner if you want smoother response for all listeners. Maybe 4' or so I'd start with and test from there.

They are on sale at the place you are thinking. Probably swing a better deal with 2.

Your space is about the same size as mine and mine is open to the rest of the house. I use a single EP600v2 and it doesn't even break a sweat. To reach the 75dB calibration level for my area, I barely have to nudge the gain knob on the EP600. There's a ton of headroom to please any basshead. The one thing I will say about the EP600v2 though is it's very linear down to about 20Hz. Don't be expecting any mid-bass emphasis like other subs. It will play what you put into it and nothing more or less.

Thanks for all the responses. I ended up purchasing two EP800. I got one from B-Stock and the other from the Factory Outlet. I didn't try to negotiate a deal for two SVS PB-16 Ultras so I don't know what it would have cost me, but I figure I saved myself around $2000 by ordering the EP800s.

As much as I would have liked to order both and audition them, it would have been too much hassle and my wife likely would have thought I'd gone bonkers. Considering the only experience I have with a subwoofer is the EP500, and it's been a favourable one, I figure I'll be more than happy with the EP800s.

The only concern is that it might limit my placement options due to their height. The SVS subs would have been lower than my front projection screen so I could have moved them closer together and under the screen. With the EP800s, I'll have to keep them outside the screen. Or move them elsewhere in the room.

Regardless, they should work just fine. And they've already shipped so it's pretty much a done deal!

Nice !

110 pounds each... be careful moving them.

Holy Crap Batman

I think you'll be very happy.

Good morning,

I am new to this forum and still trying to work my through the settings on posting comments; I hope that I have done it correctly.

I have not owned any Axiom subs, however I just ordered a new EP500 which I'll have in a week or so. What moved me to purchasing from Axiom, sight unseen and and unheard is simply due to my ownership of a pair of Rosewood Bryston Model T main speakers which are in my opinion as good as it gets. Axiom builds the speakers for Bryston and based on the quality of the Bryston's I am good to go with anything from Axiom.

That being said, I have owned over the past year a Pair of SVS Ultra Towers (one crossover failed and the speaker was replaced), the SVS Ultra 16 sub (amplifier failed within the first 2 hours of operation and the speaker was replaced with another), SVS PC 12 plus (driver voice coil melted down two weeks after purchase) Second SVS 12 plus which was the replacement for the first failed one (Voice coil melted down 4 weeks after receiving it) this speaker was replaced with the PC13 Ultra with a payment for the upgrade to what was thought to be a more reliable sub. PC 13 Ultra amplifier failed 2 weeks after receiving it.

I decide to just keep using a 15 year old Def Tech PL 15 Plus with the 500 watt amp (it actually was still working after suffering a lightning hit) and it's been in service for a decade and a half.... the driver just started to wear out and the cost of replacing the driver is perhaps an option, but I decide to order the EP500 and go for new. I still might replace the old driver in the Def Tech, but I will decide on that once I put the Axiom into service and try it out and if it works better with my Model T''s, I might just pick up another EP 500 or EP 800 as the second sub.

Trust me, I really play the Model T's a lot and loud and they are bi-amped from a Parasound A51 putting in 400 watts per section (800 watts total into each speaker divided) at 4 ohms. They are amazing speakers, zero distortion, extremely dynamic and fill a very large room perfectly. I cannot say enough about the quality of these speakers. I look forward to the Axiom sub (very impressed with the build quality of the amp with the large wound transformer vs. what I saw in the SVS amps when I opened them up for testing).

How close to the room boundaries are the Ts?

v3 or v4 tweeter?

V4 latest version tweeter is what I have. The speakers are only about a year or two old. The right speaker is about 5 feet from the wall behind and 5 feet from the side wall; the left speaker is about the same, however is has a balcony at 8 feet over top. The right speaker has an 18 foot vaulted ceiling above. My sub is about 30 feet away at the opposite side of the room from the T's in an alcove with again an overhung room overhead at about 8 feet. The main living area is all open above up to 18 feet. It's a difficult room to work with, however after a lot of trial and error, I am getting it dialed in. Believe it or not, one mid sized sub (the Def Tech 500 watt cube) working in the alcove with the T's across the room blows away anything I heard out of the SVS's I used. Disclaimer: I did not try the SVS's in the Alcove as I didn't have the opportunity to do so. I moved the Def Tech into the corner out of an experiment to see what would happen if I were to build in a sub into the bar I plan on building this winter..... low and behold, it just works!

I suspect that a second sub or perhaps a third at some point might round out this room even better. But I wish to just play with the EP500 first in the bar area. I have a perfect location for the second sub adjacent to the fireplace about mid point/left between the rear bar sub and the main Model T's. If I do this location, I might consider the EP800, however I think the smaller EP500 might blend in better for balancing the sound. I suspect that multiple smaller subs might work more harmoniously: I'll have to defer to Ian on this one before I get too far into this project.

I have the Axiom LFR1100 that is somewhat like your Bryston T's in size. I also have a pair of EP500 subs that match perfectly with them. The LFR like your Bryston T's have a very well designed low frequency response along with good porting, they can give a clean sound down easily to 30hz and with a bit of push and a clean falloff get to 25hz.

I will say that these speakers are one of the few that can get away without having a sub. I run mine off an ADA1000 running full frequency. With some music that I play, you cannot tell the difference between running these speakers with the subs turned on or off. They are that good.

But I do own the pair of EP500s so you might as well get the use out of them. They do add that nice subtle reinforcement to the lower bass. Playing classical loud (as if there is any other way to play it) the presence of a good sealed sub just adds to the stage and presence.

I know that Ian has run 4 of his EP800 for a bit. I don't know if that for me is just simply overkill. When I have used just the 2 small babies that I have, the room has shook when playing them for some movies.

The EP800 is an impressive sub. I can't fathom 4. I have one of IAN's older 800's, with new internals, and it's a beast. I've had a lot of good subs in that room over the years and they just failed to deliver. But the 800 kills it. It's a hard room for bass due to how the floor is made, total bass trap.

I always thought the 800 was massive overkill before actually seeing one in person. In real wood, I have horizontal pine one, it's like a piece of furniture, and I couldn't be happier with it. Certainly a conversation piece with company. The funny thing is, you have to walk through my theater to get to the bar where the 800 is, so people walk passed my HSU's and SVS's and look at them and say wtf? then they walk in and see the 800 and at first they don't know what it is until I pop the screen off and everyone just loves it. Killer is now I want to replace my theater subs with 800's. In horizontal position it fits perfect under my screen.

I have wanted to move the 800 but I am not sure how much benefit it will give me over the 600v2. My environment has terrific extra low frequency content but lacks mid-bass punch. I know this isn't a fault of my environment because I've had other (lesser and equal) subs in there and they punched.

Will the 800 give me mid-bass punch?

try it, it's only a 130lbs to send back!lol

Yeah...I thought about that. But no thanks. It's a PITA for me and also for Axiom. I'd rather hear from forum members about their EP800 experience. Reading between the lines from Craig's experience, the EP800 doesn't punch the way the SVS and one other sub (I can't remember the name) does.

I went from a 500 to 800. The 800 definitely creates a draft in the room. Not too sure it "punches" more the way you want it (upper lower frequencies you like so much if my memory serves me right, like 50-60hz). Definitely amazing feeling of "reality" when used with pipe organ, cellos or very low frequency percussion. Some of the bass extensions might be out of the audible range, but it decidedly adds a "tactile" dimension that is often only felt in an actual church or large concert hall.
The 800 shines the most with surround SACDs because of that touch of added realism.
Additional: And with movies with lots of LFE, of course!

Perhaps the punch that you desire is due to some exaggerated frequency response in the mid bass range - fun but not accurate. Axiom subs are known to be highly accurate through their frequency range, thus they sound very 'musical' (for want of better term).

My twin EP-800s are the best sounding subs that I've ever heard - both for music and HT. With the way that they effortlessly shake my house & contents to its foundations, I can't imagine needing or wanting any more...

TAM

Thanks guys. Yes, I do know that it moves more air. I don't know if the mid-bass I hear with other subs is exaggerated but I feel like I am missing out on a lot especially on movies. When rifles, guns, rockets, etc go off, I want the extra low frequencies that make my pants flap AND the shots in the butt and nuts that are oh so sweet .

Further to my last - this is a good overview of the EP-800:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/s...ker-review.html

and a follow up:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/sub-zone-subwoofer-testing/62085-axiom-ep800.html

It come down to the fact the the EP-800 does exactly what it is supposed to do - with no unnecessary exaggeration. That is the way that I like my sound, others may not...

TAM

Yeah...thanks TAM. Believe me, over the years I've read everything on the EP800...and ALL your posts about it and your M22s...LOL!

sounds to me like you've got your sub setup wrong. Check the back of the sub to see where you set the cross over/fall off point. If you've set that too low then the amp won't do the higher frequencies. I'd also check the receiver/pre-amp to see how that is setup. you might be chopping off the mains and leaving a huge sound gap without realizing it.

loads of the receivers out there try and limit the bass from the mains to save power and put that onto the sub that uniless it's setup to handle the frequencies, you end up with the sound you have

Also, play with location of the subs. I could not believe the differences in bass range and out put simply by moving locations. One location did absolutely nothing for my old Def Tech. It was low output mud. I moved it across the room and wow! It was like I tripled the power and it lost all of the muddiness .

Yeah...nahhhh Mat...I am not a newbie. I've tried every setting in every possible combo over the last 11 years...believe me. I bring other subs into my room and same set-up and have no issue.

Yes slim. That 600 of mine has been on almost every square inch of my 600 sq. ft. space. Plenty of extra low response all over my entire house and into both neighbors' places but no mid-bass punch.

Have you time aligned it with your mains at the crossover point? Makes a pretty big tactile difference at the crossover point if you are out of phase between transducers.

No Trevor but then again, I've had that beast all over my room and besides, other subs I've had in there weren't time-aligned either.

It's worth a try. Physical location affects the loading of the room but not latency. The amp/driver delay may have been more agreeable with your mains (by accident) with the other subs you messed with.

The delay on the subs in my room is ~20ms (or 20ft) behind my mains without correction. Without correction they are over a full rotation behind the beat at 60hz and out of phase by 390 degrees lagging or so. This related to a 3db loss in-room.

In a worse case scenario you could be down as much as 12db at the crossover frequency. No kick possible.

Understood but then again, I can turn the gain on both my receiver and the 600 right up and still no kick! I remember when we were watching the WOTW pod emergency scene at your place and I had flappy pants and sore nuts.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/deals/b-stock/1285

there is your solution. snag it while you can.

Trevor what sub/s are you running. Did you find that the DSpeaker improved midbass punch at all. I have a pair of 12's in my midsize car and a ton of power and they punch you but good . The 2 10's in my theater just dont have the midbass punch. I see many people on AVS building midbass modules to get that punch in the chest from the 100hz range. In my previous car i had a hatch and i faced a 10 towards the back of the car and that thing absolutely pounded, nice back massage The bigger the room the more sub you need.

I definitely would if I had the confidence that it would do the job.

No such thing as too many subs . Check out avs and look at building or buying a MB module and use a minidsp box to put a highpass filter on the low bass.

Trevor, I need 4 of these please

http://diygeezer.com/subwoofer-and-midbass-module-project/

I was running a pair of sealed SVS sb12-nsd subs in a 12x17 room. They loaded it hard. They would open the furnace access door and freak people out it was a ghost!

The DSPeaker improved clarity and reduced bloom at the expense of output. A better result with Dirac, although Dirac did properly time align the subs to mains which helped upper bass. In the current room at 14.5 x 22 the same subs do not load the space to nuts sore levels. The triplet LCR towers we built sure help though with upper bass output. (Just an excuse to sneak a pic in. Lol) Can feel gunshots in movies.

Those would be something! Better factor in a screen wall to hide them.

The term Mid Bass is getting thrown around here without any definition.

0 - 80Hz: Lower-bass / subbass range
80 - 150Hz: Mid-bass
150 - 250Hz Upper-bass

if we are using this as the standard, then why are you criticizing a sub, when you can just as easily be pointing the finger at the mains? The 150Hz down to 80Hz sounds like something that your front speakers should be performing.

What are you using for your left and right front speakers? Or is your definition of mid mass something else.

yeah, I agree, what are you calling mid bass? My 800 isn't lacking anything.

Having the experience of a direct comparison between an EP-800 and an SB-16 Ultra in our theater, the EP-800 was the subwoofer we kept. It is a subwoofer that starts out great, then gets better with age. The slam is excellent, but it's the subtle bass lines that it delivers that seal the deal.

Sonically, it's the best sub I have heard. This includes a JL Audio Gotham @ $13,000.

A crossover is not a brick wall, with a 12db rolloff plenty of midbass comes from the sub but yeah it is also up to the mains to chime in . This is why i mentioned a MBM to really fill out the MB slam. A car has a huge amount of cabin gain that you just dont get in a large room without lots of drivers. I plan to build a couple MBM so i will update when im done.


Speaking of MidBass SLAM , i shot a 50 cal a while back, now thats what i want in my theater.

The most tactile energy is perceived around 100hz + or - centred in the mid bass region.

The LFE channel is mixed up to 120hz in soundtracks AFAIK. The crossover setting is only a low pass from the other channels to sub -not a high pass from LFE to mains. The discrete LFE channel uses a greater range of the subwoofers with multichannel content. Mid bass galore.

The SB 16 Ultra I bought had no guts whatsoever, in fact it was about even with the very inexpensive PC 2000 I had on loan to test. Worse yet, the SB16 Ultra died after a few hours of use (amp just stopped suddenly). My 15 year old box store purchased Def Tech PF 15TL Plus with a paper cone 15 inch driver and 500 watts outperformed all of the SVS subs I tried... again, in my room, not necessarily what your room will produce. But the fact that my old Def Tech took a lightning hit, died immediately then came back to life and lived another year afterwards speaks volumes towards a US built speaker (sadly they are no longer built here, China rules). I will not replace it with another product from them as I don't do Chinese, if at all possible which is becoming increasingly difficult.

Not to start a rant but this was one of the key reasons I was willing and spent the kind of money that Anthem was asking for from their pre-amp.

The complexities of many of the AV receivers blows your mind. To say that a crossover is not a brick wall can be very deceiving as it really depends on how the firmware is implemented. On my old Pioneer Elite the unit had the default setting that cut out the mid-bass from the mains with a sharp knife. If you had a sub connected, it would direct all the bass sound to the LFR like falling off a cliff from 150hz down. Your 120hz sweet spot wouldn't make a peep from the mains. To get it to output, there were 3 different setting spots hidden inside the menus to expand the bass, play both LFE and Mains, and configure the mains as LARGE FULL RANGE.

For the month I had the Mirantz, I can't say it was much better. What Anthem did that I really like is with the ARC gives you a proper calibrated mic and a graphical screen showing you the response curve measured from each speaker. That way you can actually see if you are getting a null at a certain spot either from your speaker location or perhaps just the spot that you are sitting at. Worth every penny spent.

When I installed my new system last winter, the initial system that is with the SVS Ultra Towers and SVS SB16 Ultra, followed by the PC12 Plus then the PC Ultra13 (all failed including the towers), a Parasound A51 amp and Anthem AVM60. I used the ARC software which worked wonders with the SVS towers and subs; it really cleared up room deficiencies

After the failure of the Ultra Towers, I decided to just pull the trigger and replace with what I always wanted, the Bryston Model T's and then just use my old Def Tech PF15TL Plus sub for the time being. I used initially the ARC settings I had run with the SVS speakers just to see how it worked which included bass management. It was terrible, so I ran a new fresh scan of the room with the Bryston's and it once again was so so, not bad, better than the original, but not great.

I turned off all room correction and bass management and the sound just blew me away! Simply amazing. I called service at Bryston to tell Mike and he said good to hear.... that is how they like it, no room correction at all, just let the speakers do what they are supposed to do (if they are well designed) and not add in any 'filtering' which is what ARC is.

Try using your speakers and processing with NO filtering or correction at all, you might be surprised. However in the case of the SVS Towers, they needed it so it shows that the crossover design was not well designed perhaps.

I've had multiple speakers, from different companies, in my space since enabling XT32 on my Onk. They all sound like garbage without Audyssey. Ditto with my EP600. The room and the speakers form a system whose response is controlled by Audyssey.

It sounds freakin' amazing and that's not just my opinion but the opinion of everyone I've blind-folded and converted to an audiophile. Once they've heard it, they can't go back to the junk they used to call "good enough".

I don't want to listen to the Model T 'cause I'm sure mine would sound like junk in comparison.

What are your main speakers Mojo? If they are anything from Axiom, I am sure that they would not sound like junk next to the T's. Axiom builds the T's and they share a lot of similarities. From what I am told, the T's and the Axioms have a very common sound, only the T's have a lot more output due to the large lower drivers. The mids and tweeters are pretty much the same from what I understand. The crossovers are different and the cabinets are different with the T's having more internal bracing and a different shape and the T's have a double thick front panel of MDF, not sure what the Axioms use as I never asked.

Since all of the main components are built by Axiom, the similarities carry over. In fact, I'd be very interested in trying out the LFR1100 mains vs. the Bryston Model T's. I would love to see how they perform in my rather diverse and broken up room with vaulted ceilings.

Slim, I have Axiom M80, 2 pairs of QS8s, a VP150 and an EP600; all v2...in 7.1. I'm replacing the 150 and 600 with a 160 and 800 thanks to Steve and Ian.

The sound quality difference in my room isn't the result of speaker design. I could put your Ts in my room and they'd sound better with Audyssey than without.

Your Ts are awesome! Fully active Ts are awesomer . The LFRs are a different beast than the Ts. And the new LFRs will make Amar Bose jealous with envy in that great audio heaven he's inhabiting now because the direct/reflecting concept he pioneered will finally be fully realized with no compromises.

Will the fully active LFRs sound better than the fully active Ts? No one can know unless they try it. What I do know however is that the fully active LFRs will at least get you very close to the active Ts for less money and less space with perhaps more convenience. And you will have the option to upgrade in the future. Ian is very generous.

You are putting 100 times more power in one T than I put in my entire 7.1...lol! Perhaps not even the new LFRs will satisfy your SPL needs and you are best off staying with the Ts. But if you are fortunate enough to have the off-board x-over, replace it with the digital x-over and of course more amplification. Otherwise, go to your Bryston dealer and ask to trade up.

No matter what you decide, enjoy what you have. You are extremely fortunate!

My buddy Adam has Model T's and a pair of Middle T's... he likes the Middle T's better for his sound room (he has 5 sound rooms in his house with amps ranging from a Parasound A31 up to Mark Levinson's and a pair of Parasound JC1's, his favorites) He's a little over the top, but good for Adam..... Me, I love my T's. Nothing on earth close; to me of course.

Adam is trying to talk me into buying twin JC1's, but I'll hold my fire on that. I love my A51. And he is trying to talk me into buying is walnut veneer T's... hmmm maybe I wonder how my room would sound with two sets of T's? I have an idea and its good. But that would mean un-biamping my T's and 'only' putting one section into each speaker. I am going to have to get input from Ian on that.

Can't wait to get in the EP 500, I suspect its going to be a value added improvement. From there, it's either going to be a single EP800 added or two more EP 500's.... we shall see

The 500 will be plenty unless you listen to the lowest notes of the pipe organ.

I like the mini-T. The Axiom M5HP is the poor man's version of the mini-T. It can't reach as low and likely not as dynamic but it sounds similarly good Something like fully active M5HPs are in my distant future.

I have 3 sound rooms. All three are contrasts in environments.

It's possible bi-amping is beneficial given your power needs.

I have run direct into each speaker and then split the sections to run bi amp... to me its a huge difference. The bi amp is better. Again that is my opinion and it might not work for others. I found that putting in 400 watts to each section worked. The T's can handle pretty much anything you wish to deliver. Then again, I suspect the Axioms can too

The LFRs are rated for 400W but I know they've been run at 700W at Axiom. I don't know if they compress above 400W though. The Ts are good to 800W based on their sensitivity and max SPL.

I was told by Bryston that you don't have to worry about power, you can put whatever you wish into it, the ratings on the speakers are just a basic guideline. I forget what Adam told me his JC-1's are putting out at 4 ohms, however I believe its on the order of 800 watts and his Middle T's take it all day long as that is his preferred main speaker and they are rated at 400 watts. The T's are 500 watts. I will say that I had Middle T's here for a couple of months on loan from someone and I was trying to buy them, but I couldn't get the deal done. Then I found the Model T's and bought them sight/heard unseen. I wanted to do A/B comparisons against the Middle T's, so I placed the Model T's next to the Middle T's and planned on swapping cables around. Since I knew the Middle's well, I started with the Model T's with some music I am very familiar with and after 3 minutes of listening, I picked up the Middle T's and moved them out to the foyer without bothering to swap cables. I knew immediately the Model T's were strapping in sound and the Middle T's were not going to compete; again this is for my room, it won't necessarily work out that well in other smaller rooms. The Model T's might overload the space.

It's some what apples and oranges.
Sure Axiom makes Bryston but it is to Mr. Tanners specs.
Our drivers have 11/2 inch coils the brystons have 2 inches.
We get 90 to 95Db the same model of Bryston has 100Db plus.
Our units need shipping the Bryston doesn't. So weight of those units is not an issue they can add more Baffling and such.
For greater SPL etc.

Have spent sometime watching the tube regarding this.
It is a fantastic partnership we are all benefitting from their combined experience in all aspects of audio is pretty cool.

Brendo has it right. We are indeed all benefiting.

BTW, you can't put whatever you want into the Brystons. There's both a thermal limit and a mechanical limit. According to the specs of 118 dB max SPL and rated sensitivity, that limit is somewhere between 500W and 800W which might as well be infinite for all practical intents. You can likely put more in but the energy will be converted to heat rather than driver motion.

I don't know how Adam and you can dump 800W into each T and not lose your hearing and mind.

That's very interesting about the middle Ts vs the Ts. It's how I felt about the M80s vs. the M60s. The M60s and M22s should have never seen the production line.

Mojo, the hearing is good and not lost, but I cannot say that we have not lost our minds and if so, it was prior to installing T's. In fact it might be why we still listen to these with such power.

Honestly, 400 or 800 watts into these speakers is only if the amps are running full bore. I for one never do; but it's nice to have all of the headroom available so that there is no distortion or clipping. However, I will say that Adam told me that he had a 'tailgating' party at his place a week or so ago and he left some guys in the sound room with the Middle T's alone with probably too much alcohol and he was very concerned; but the speakers survived the night. That says a lot.

"The M60s and M22s should have never seen the production line."

Really?? I mean really??

Considering the thousands of 60s & 22s that have been produced over the past decade or more for so many satisfied customers belies that statement. Not everyone can fit 80s (or bigger) into their systems hence the need for various models of different sizes, power handling & price points. They all have the signature Axiom sound that I & many others enjoy.

Personally I prefer satellites & subs for my spaces. Towers just don't do it for me. Thankfully Ian continually provides these choices for us...

TAM

Brendo, thank you for chiming in here... I just learned something new; I didn't know that the drivers have larger coils. Are you referring to the woofers? I know that the Brystons use 8 inch woofers and the Axioms use 6.5 inch. I would assume, if correctly, that the larger woofers in the Bryston would have a larger coil, but I never knew the specification.

I do know the cabinets have more internal support and a 1.5 inch thick front panel alone with a different tapering profile. Yes they were built to James Tanner's specification and it certainly yields a super nice platform.

What I enjoy is that Bryston collaborated with Ian and his impressive manufacturing facility to build what I think are wonderful speakers. Plus the workmanship of the cabinet veneer is outstanding, they are gorgeous pieces. So much so, I ordered an EP500 recently and plan on adding in others shortly, perhaps in a matching veneer.

I agree, its great to see such nice partnership with these two outfits.

Heh heh...sometimes following your heart, means losing your mind.

Tam, I agree with you on having various sized platforms being offered. Bigger is not always better. Case in point, Adam, he had both Middle T's and Model T's; the larger Model T's do not work in his space, they overload it and sound muddy.

For me, it was the opposite. I have a 30 foot by 30 foot with an 18 foot high vaulted ceiling and while the Middle T's were outstanding, I mean really good. The Model T's were a level beyond in my space. I spoke with James at Bryston at length about my situation before pulling the trigger on the big T's; he said a Model T can overload a space which is not large enough, but it would probably be my best choice for what I was dealing with.... he was right on mark, amazing increase in dynamic power for the room.

Every space is different and having choices is what works best for the consumer.

TAM, do your brain and ears a favor and upgrade to the M5HP. And while you're at it, the v4 of the EP800. You only live once and you're running out of time so live large.

The M22s are horrid and Andrew, bless his soul, used his tremendous engineering prowess to try to undo the terrible sin unleashed unto human-kind via the M22v4 but he's only human after all. Ian undid the great sin by commissioning the oh so holy but much belated M5HP.

I sense Alan will be by shortly to admonish me.

I'm pretty sure it's all the woofers are different {Bigger}not just Axiom white Bryston in Black. The amount of excursion to make the extra SPL is likely extreme and somewhat hard on the drivers so they would need to be really robust for such extreme efficiency.
Same as the cabinets need more body to absorb such excursions.

I myself have gone from M3 to the M22 now to M80. Have found each model to meet and exceed my needs without any deficiencies.

The woofers are 8" vs the Axiom 6.5".

Big difference

No even your 5 and 6 inch woofers are Bryston's bigger coils I think. Instore have looked at Bryston multiple times, the people their are usually to busy for a demo, and the shop I have is in a really seedy neighbourhood. So logically they aren't to interested in people off the street.

I think the Statements II sound similarly good to the LFR1100 and Model T. Trevor, you should take them to Slim's for a trial. I can fly out to join you. I'll bring bourbon and my bow to deal with the runner-up.

I have not personally heard any of the Axiom offerings, I only know Bryston Middle T's and Model T's.
Both are extremely similar in performance in terms of sound quality. The difference is sound pressure in the room. The Model T's just hit you in the chest; but sound just like the Middle Ts; again, in my room.

In a smaller space, I am sure the 6.5 inch drivers in the Axiom would do just fine. Again, larger dynamic power as in the T's might be far too much.

Anyone showing up here with speakers for a test will have to bring multiple bottles of Jefferson's. But we cannot do it until the pool opens up for the next season.... plenty of time to plan. Maybe Ian and James will come along for the demo No one is getting out alive

You got that right. Night is drawing near. Shadows of the evening crawl across the years. May as well go out in a blaze of melting speaker coils, bursting ear drums and jellified corpus callosums.

Mojo - honestly some of your comments here are cringe-worthy.

My M22s have to go back for some servicing (finish) after Christmas. Ian personally offered me a wonderful deal on the M5HPs in exchange for my M22s. After some thought, I declined as my 22s blend so well with my EP800s.

This afternoon while millions watched football, I fired up Eric Clapton's 'Live on Tour' - 'One More Car, One More Rider' DVD in 5.1 at -20 DB Volume (pleasantly loud on sober ears). The recording quality of this live concert is outstanding with bass lines unbelievably strong & articulate in my room. The M22s produced strong & clean midrange/highs where they absolutely excel with no stress at all.

'Layla' (electric version) was outstanding. I really don't need anymore...

TAM

Ian is an honorable and generous man. He tried to do you a big favor. Keep on taking the blue pills.

I thought the original point of the HP versions was so people can decide they Don't need subs for regular listening. Movies and games a sub is almost a must. Especially those of us with EP500s and larger we have no need for large full range speakers. that's why we went big subs altogether to relieve the mains of that burden.

My best friend has been in the music bis.{Singer} since the 60s. He thinks were a bunch of nuts. He's got a pair of original Rogers that have been his favorite since new and feels those through a vintage Sansui with tubes is perfect.

Brendo,

I will say that I have been living with my T's without any sub for a couple of weeks and honestly, they are fabulous as is.... .BUT, with a good sub, it's Nirvana It doesn't matter how great the mains are, they are that much better with subs. I am waiting for my order to be processed

Flawed theory on small speakers paired with subs. Woofers, mids, tweeters, x-over and tower enclosure along with the room, blend together to present a soundstage, dynamics and instrument localization that can't be replicated with a sub and bookshelves.

I can almost live without a sub for my M80s for music but there's no way I can get the chest slam Slim is experiencing with his Ts. Then again, I am only driving them with an Onk.

I love good dynamic slam for music.... Timo Mass 'connected' is a good play for it. It's the best electronic music which is well recorded and with subs, amazing. dual disc album, one is better than the other

"Flawed theory on small speakers paired with subs. Woofers, mids, tweeters, x-over and tower enclosure along with the room, blend together to present a soundstage, dynamics and instrument localization that can't be replicated with a sub and bookshelves."

Bullsh%t...

TAM

I cant find "connected". I can get my jeans flapping with "psychofunk" but no chest slam. Also to get the flap I need to turn it insane loud and it hurts.

Timo Mass connected is out there, I see it available on discogs and I have a copy which I am listening to right this moment on T's with no subs, sadly. I need that EP 500

TAM, I know the truth hurts and I know you love what you have and hold it near and dear. There is however better; much better. Folks come here, listen to what I have and can't ever again enjoy what they have in the same way. I make sure to ask them multiple times if they really want to hear it. Sometimes, I try to discourage them because I know what it does to people. No matter how happy and satisfied I may be with it however, I am not deluded into believing it can't be significantly better.

This is why those who want the ultimate experience buy big, bold towers like the Ts and LFR1100s and the associated amplification. They also have big rooms, with speakers placed well away from room boundaries and sit in the far field to enjoy an expansive and multi-dimensional sound-stage.

Not on Spotify.

Poor you. Model Ts and enough power to arc weld but no sub. You're living like a peasant over there.

Mojo, I think you had asked my speaker placement in relation to the walls the other day... .I said 5 feet. I played with the placement a bit last night as I am doing a remodel and I wanted to see how they'd sound in a slightly different placement. I moved the T's about a foot more away from the back walls and about a foot closer spacing from each other. they are now about 15 feet apart, 6 feet from the back and side walls or so.... it really built up the dynamic power, I was very surprised.

I agree, big speakers,large rooms and a lot of power with a dedicated amplifier. As far as cables are concerned, I don't buy into any of the high priced cable stuff. I use high quality made in USA Belden wire with expanding tip banana connectors. 12 gauge or larger is fine. I use 12, it works. Skin effect is skin effect, the signals travel on the outside of the wire and copper is just fine for me, but larger conductors carry high current better. Adam disagrees with me, but he likes to spend thousands on cables which I buy for $60.

I wouldn't go quite that god damn far. The amp is only doing 60 amps per channel.... my Thermal arc Tig welder does 180 amps, so I am not welding any cables here! Well I could do some thin sheet metal

I know, eh? You can make even crappy speakers sound so much better by pulling them into the room.

How far away are you from the speakers in your main listening position?

there is no specific position, which is why like subs around the place. I move around a lot; out in the kitchen, back into the living room to sip the bourbon from who knows where, out onto the deck, over into the private office, back to the living room.... I don't sit still. Then I just stand toward the back of the room and listen.... get a refill and start all over again

You're doing about 10 amps max and 12 ga is fine.

Oh, you're a "roamer". Try sitting right in between them 15 feet away. Slide your sitting position forwards and backwards until you hear Nirvana.

Don't do it if you want to continue roaming. The sweet spot is addictive.

Yep, not 60 amps.... I only have a 20 amp main circuit and if I can turn 20 amps into 60 x 2 amps I need to be heating this place for free.

Oh trust me, I do have a sweet spot, it's about 15 feet back and it's triangulated with the spacing, it works. But I like to roam. If anyone finds me in the sweet spot for an extended time frame, it indicates that I have lost my mind again.

So you take all possible paths until you lose your mind. Your wavefunction then collapses and you are localized at the sweet spot.

BTW, if the music you like has notes below 20 Hz, the 500 may not be enough for you.

There are trade offs with both. If you have the space go big. Bookshelves are wonderful, but physics dictate they can not compete with the dynamics of more and larger drivers. It can be harder to properly blend towers to sub than bookshelves to sub by ear. Truth is, you can do neither 100% without putting a mic on it. Big towers with subs can be superlative, and scary. Scary dynamics are what makes content sound real.

In a small room for music use there is nothing wrong with a bookshelf based setup. TAM is lucky. His wallet is not constantly wondering 'what if'? The problem I have is learning and 'what if' are as much the hobby as listening. But I'm a books and build kind of audiophile I guess.

The more I learn the more Ive realized any system can be made to sound really good. But there are always trade offs.

So we agree TAM's system can be made to sound really good with M5HPs.

I don't really know what I don't know yet. I have doubts that the old DefTech sub hit notes below 20 hz. The SVS might have, but I don't know how well. I'll just have to try out the EP500 and see how it sounds; it it doesn't hit low and I don't miss anything, I should be happy.

BTW, for anyone who has interest; I think that I have found the solution to the Axiom and Bryston subs not having an auto on feature. I was told that they don't fully shut down, but go into a 'sleep' mode when not in use unless you use the 12v trigger which means running another long lead from the main amp and if you do it only reduces the power consumption from 30 watts to I think 18 watts if I recall the numbers.

I like the idea of having the sub amp off completely when not in use and the only way to do that is to physically go behind the sub and hit the power switch off. If I end up with multiple subs, I'll have to cycle each one whenever I use the system.

Lutron makes a wireless 15 amp or 20 amp outlet which comes either as split or duplex. If I get the split one, I can plug the sub into the side which is electronically switched on/off via the Pico remote and the Pico can be synced to upto 10 devices. So if I install 3 outlets around the room, and plug in each sub to a specific outlet, sync the pico to all three outlets, I can hit the Pico to shut down the power to all three outlets. Beware that if you install the duplex outlet which means top and bottom of the outlet are controlled, anything down the circuit from that outlet will go off too. If you don't want to effect the entire circuit, but only the individual device, get the split and use just one outlet on it, the other will remain hot and all the device downstream will have current too with being shut off when you shut off the section of the outlet wirelessly.

Also, these outlets are surge protected! That affords protection to the sub amp. No idea on cost yet, its new, but I am guessing around $50 each. This circumvents the 12v amp trigger line and cuts power off to sub completely which should save on electrical bills over time. I did a lot of research on this subject to figure out how to "add" auto power on feature to the Axiom subs.

It's hard to find online, no one has it listed yet, but the Part number for the split device is CAR2S-15-STR for the 15 amp outlet, The 20 amp is same number just with the 20 vs. 15.

I don't see surge protection in the pdf below. Be aware that transient protectors can affect the dynamic power demanded by loads like subs and amps.

http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/3691034.pdf

I asked the technical guy at Lutron if this was also surge protected, he said yes it will trip under a surge hit. I am not sure how it would effect the performance of the sub if at all.

I will say that I purchased a simple Tripplite single outlet surge protection plug in unit which then becomes an outlet socket. I read that it was decent and I tried it with my 500 watt DefTech. I could see no ill-effects, so if it's similar to the wireless outlet, I assume it should be ok to use. I also used one on the Big SVS PC13 Ultra and again no issues.

When you add more energy you just have to have a plan to manage it properly. More isn't always better, but can be if decay is properly managed in the room. Otherwise just buy Cerwin Vega stuff and crank it till nose bleeds.

The towers in my room took some wrangling to get right. Without EQ and treatments they wouldn't be as impressive. Just freaking big and loud. They would do better in a larger space where low frequency loading was less an issue for example. It took work to make them behave as I wanted.

My old Cerwin Vega 12T towers were amazing, loved them and they sounded really good, especially when played loud. They had 12 inch down firing woofers at the bottom of the tower. And really nice black walnut veneer finish. It's too bad they need a rebuild, but they date back to 1975, what can you expect?

I still have them in the basement.... hmmmm, I wonder what would happen if I modified the cabinets to accept Axiom 12 inch drivers, 5 inch mids and the tweeter? Also replace the crossover with the matching Axiom unit. That could be a cool experiment.

The CV crossover has individual attenuator pots for the tweeter and mid's. You can adjust the level of each section independently.

I was shaking my head Trevor when you started building those monsters because I knew your room size. But then you worked all that magic in the room. Amazing! I wonder how much better they'd sound fully active. It'd be easy given the x-over is external.

I've been thinking about retrofitting my Bose 601 series II with Axiom drivers and an active x-over.

...he didn't just say Bose? did he?

Oh yeah! I traded a bottle of beer for both of them when they were 4 years old. I powered them up and at the first bass drum, the port exiting the so-called "free space array" puked up a dead moth.

Do you want to know what they sound like? Just throw three sleeping bags over your Axiom Air, and you too can experience the muffled sounds and missing octaves that only Bose 601 Series IIs can deliver!

Hard to say. I took a bunch of measurements and they are pretty well behaved now in the room. I think the major bottleneck is the amps ahead of them. But I'm stuck with those for the foreseeable future

I know you can build better amps.

I spoke with Ian today on this and sees no issue at all with the outlet handling the sub demands. In fact he liked the idea of the Caseta Wireless system Lutron makes and my idea of using the programmed outlets to shut down whatever unit I select from the Pico remote. I guess it should be fine as the outlet is rated at 15 amps full service. I am going to try it out.

"Simple protection" like MOVs and caps in parallel with the load won't affect dynamic power. More sophisticated protection, that incorporates filters in series with the load, can affect dynamic power. In your case, if there really is protection built into the unit, it is simple.

Honestly, I doubt that there are any MOV's of subsistence in this device. MOV's which can handle major hits would not fit into this outlet. Worse yet, MOV's degrade with each hit and are not great as surge protection in long term use. I use a Brickwall now as my first line of defense as it doesn't degrade (in theory). My best defense is to unplug everything, it's not connected that way. And I am not very good at unplugging everything. I do unplug my very expensive amateur radio gear which is just too costly to keep replacing and it's connected to very high antenna's up on towers which love to attract hits. But I cannot remember to unplug it all

I have been hit several times now as I am up high on a plateau. It gets old! Please do not hit my Model T's!

I plan on putting a series MOV based surge unit after this outlet. That way the outlet with whatever surge protection it offers would be prior to a MOV protection device. Cheap insurance for the sub, but I am still not sure how well it might work.

My Brickwall surge units are extremely expensive and I am not in a position to be installing them at each outlet.

Whole home surge protectors are not very expensive these days and given the money laid out on amps and such it would seem to be a really good investment

Slim, put those Ts up on the tower dude. Watch them ignite. Then you can get the fully actives. Do it man, do it!

Got a crane? Man those T's are some heavy! It takes two people to handle them; they are up to my chest in height and must weigh 125 pounds each.... I recall the shipping weight of the pallet with the two speakers was around 300 pounds. They are almost 5 feet tall.

Larger than life. Just like Tanner.

As big as they are; I still need subs in this room T's have output, but in a room which is about 10,000 cubic feet, I need the assistance of a low driver as I have learned over the past two weeks without my old Def Tech sub. Anxiously awaiting my new EP500. Will add in other subs around the room once I do some testing. I am thinking two more EP 500's or perhaps the EP600 with another 500, however I need to see how low, low is with the 500. I may not need the super low's. This place is all about music, not HT>>>

Yet...?

Just make us proud Slim and adorn that room with 8xEP800s.

Hey Mojo, you are killing me and my ears with the thought of that..... I have to use the single EP 500 in the back alcove bar area and see what happens. From there I will move onto either two more EP 500's or a combination of an EP 500 with another 600 or 800... we shall see (hear). I suspect the multiple smaller subs will work best. But then again what do I know?

The Epicenter EP800 is Axiom’s definitive DSP subwoofer and set a new world standard for ultra-smooth, deep bass extension at astonishing output levels, probing the depths of infrasonic response to a remarkable 13 Hz (anechoic), even to 12 Hz in a room!

So more of them is better...yeah?

Since I am listening to Don Henley at this moment "dirty laundry" at levels which approach a B-29 taxing up the to the run up zone, I have to report that this concert hall of a room is working so well with the T's... but I need some chest hits which good subs deliver. Multiple subs really do it: just trying to work out which ones. Too large can overload and too small will blow out. I think mid sizes will round it out... we will find out

I'm going to buy a bunch of stocks in hearing aid companies...

TAM

Ha! you are not serious, I know. Loud is good

There is loud and then there is TOOO LOUD. You should try living with tinnitus not much fun. It doesnt sneak up it just happens one day and never stops.

Slim, you, me and Craig are very fortunate room-wise. I don't know of many on these boards who have large rooms. Large rooms enable large speakers that have been designed "the Canadian way" to accomplish what they were designed for. By large, I mean a minimum of 4200 ft^3. The next speaker revolution needs to be virtualizing the acoustics of a system consisting of a large room, large speakers and high SPL into a living room condo.

I know it all too well. Yes it appears suddenly one morning and no, it never goes away. Some days its there and you hear it like it's a siren in an ear, and then other days you don't even recall it as a problem. It comes and goes, at least for me. But it doesn't stop the T's from playing loud

Mine was from a sinus virus, it just appeared as the aftermath; it was not from loud music or gun shots, it was a virus which caused completely stuffed up nose and hearing.... cleared out and then there was the high pitched 'ringing', never went away. Doc said it would clear up in a few weeks, but the Doc didn't know what he was talking about obviously.

Mojo,

Large rooms are like a concert hall: the best for monster speakers and monster amps.... I just need my subs! The EP 500 should be here shortly and I'll put it to the test

A large room is one of the requirements for creating the illusion of a live performance.

At work we have a crappy old stereo and some even crapier speakers but with the size of the shop it sounds surprisingly good. Its amazing what a large room does for music playback.

Another fun aspect of a large room is the flexibility it allows for experimenting with speaker/sub placement and the blending of sound signatures. I have found out how well subs play from different locations and the overall enhancement of dynamic power it can lend.

Big rooms need big multiple subs, you need to move alot of air if your looking for the concert experience.

Exactly; I was toying with doing two or three EP 500's or an EP 500 and one more of either the 600 or 800. My thinking is that even though the 500's don't go as low, they will round out the space better and do a better job of filling the voids, even if the response isn't down to 12 hz. Not sure how much I need that super low energy vs. having a very full slightly higher range of bass response. I guess I shall see. It's why I wanted to start with one 500 and see how it interacts with the Model T's which by themselves have a lot of dynamic power.

I'm going with four 800s in my space.

im putting 8 x 800's 15 x 15 room, have to put the tv out side the window though.

Atta boy! That's where the TV belongs otherwise you end up with diffraction effects that wreak havoc!

I know that I have certainly gone overboard with all of this; however I am thoroughly convinced that all of you guys have totally lost your minds ......

You think it's too much to place eight EP800s under my king size bed?

I'll have whatever Mojo is drinking or smoking, pass it over.

In another 8 months, all Canadians can be mojoed legally. Buy ganja and drug testing stocks now.

Or move to Maine; it's all good to go And bring your 4 EP 800's to place around your king sized bed

Maine is awesome! The four 800s are going in the man-cave. Then eight 800s are going under where most of the rockin-and-a-reelin takes place.

1 EP500 ain't doing 10,000 cubic feet. I seen this number a couple pages back?!? Anyways Not happening. You need multiple 800's or look at svs pb16 ultras. Even worse if you are doing this downstairs on concrete

LIKE

I think that I'm a victim of overkill - a pair of EP800s in 2450 cu ft.

No wonder my HT never sounds stressed, ha!!...

TAM

TAM, they'll just last longer. I'd rather have overkill at 1/4 volume than not enough at 90% volume.

Agreed.

When I flew for a living I respected the gear that I was strapped too & never overly stressed it unnecessarily. That way we all came home safely - normally without too much drama. I can't say that for some of my compatriots...

TAM

Actually, I have to disagree here. I suspect that the EP500 will perform well in comparison, perhaps better, than the Def Tech PF15 Plus it's replacing. The DT is also a 500 watt amplifier (built about 15 years ago) and I am not sure if it utilized a switching type power supply vs. a toroid/ high capacitor type supply which the 500 uses. It is also using a paper cone 15 inch driver with a ported exit at the rear.

It never had a lot of dynamic power based on where it was placed in the room and I had purchased a SVS SB16 Ultra to add into the mix. That sub was terrible, not much output at all vs what they claimed and the amp died the first day in service. I replaced it with a PC12 Plus which worked better, but it lost the driver voice coil after two weeks in service. It was replaced with another one under warranty and subsequently died two months later with another voice coil failure. This was replaced with the SVS PC 13 Ultra which worked OK, but the amp died after a month. SVS is now out of here, never again (my dealer told me that they have had 6 of 8 SB16 Ultra's fail of recently sold subs). No, it' s not just me.

So what I ended up doing is experimenting with my old DT 15 inch sub with it's 500 watts (vs. huge power in the SVS's) by moving it around to multiple locations in my 10,000 cubic foot space and low and behold, I found a sweet spot which just blew me away.... it out performed any of the SVS's when they were working! Hence my decision to purchase the EP500 for it's small size to fit nicely into this sweet spot. The DT works better than the original location with the SB16 Ultra running in parallel.

My plan is to see how the bass fills the area with the EP500 and where the nulls are; from there I'll decide what additional subs are needed, how many and how large. I want to see the interaction with the Model T's.

I think the new guys posting here missed the earlier posts that I am using Bryston Model T's as main speakers, each tower has three 8 inch woofers and I am bi-amping the speakers with two feeds of 400 watts each, so there is a lot of dynamic power out of these mains. They do a great job alone right now with NO subs playing as the DT died. I don't need a lot of huge output type subs, I need balanced well integrated subs which meld well with the T's and eliminate the nulls. Plus there is the compounding effect of additional subs.

I just received notification from FedEx that the EP 500 will be delivered today, it's on the local truck. That is some fast shipping, I am impressed.

I am going to start with installing the EP 500 into the sweet spot (the known spot) where the dead Def Tech is now resting. I am very anxious to hear this sub and how the 12 inch sealed driver compares to the 15 inch ported driver (both subs running the same power rating).


I am pretty much 100 percent music, not HT, I am hopeful that the 12 inch sealed driver performs better than the very large ported 15 inch driver.

I expect the 500 will be more accurate. One 500 is enough if you always occupied one listening position but of course you graze so you may need 8 of them.

Yes I am a grazer.... which is probably why I need to find at least one or more sweet spots for additional subs. I want to get the flavor of the single 12 inch driver in a sealed configuration in the known high output spot of the room. This stuff is fun.

Just got my shipping notice for the 800 and vp160.

I just got my EP 500 from the FedEx drop off.... yikes! nice big hole punched in the side of box towards the middle of the driver. I opened it up, and luckily the driver was not punctured but it was very close!

I have it plugged in and warming up for the afternoon and I'll give it a test run after work.

Very impressive looking sub; solid and definitive. The amplifier looks extremely well made too from what I saw on the back panel. For the middle size sub, this thing is large, larger than I expected. I'll report on what I hear later on.

I am curious if the driver has a dust cap.

it has a nice round dust cap dome, luckily it's still intact!

White?

The entire driver is white, with the exception of the rubber surround, which is black. Looks exactly like my Bryston drivers, just white (which looks rather nice).

That's awesome. The white dust cap is more performant than the black as I've described in another thread.

I didn't read any of this. I was not aware that there were two styles of dust caps or if there was a difference. The white is higher performing?

Slim, you're really out of it :p

www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/427423/Re:_M100_max_spl#Post427423

Mojo,
I am copying what I had sent to Craig who wanted to know what my impression is of the EP500 after a few hours of use......



Craig,

Here I am typing out my second round of initial impressions on the EP500. I wrote a long winded essay and inadvertently deleted it!

The good news is; I was able to eat dinner, play a second round of the same music with a change out from an RCA ended interconnect over to XLR as I was having sub woofer hum when things were idle; I thought it was a ground loop, then I started to play with switches and then move the RCA cable around in it's socket, the hum seemed to disappear. I thought this was a good time to switch over to the XLR and the hum cleared up.

Initial settings on the sub amplifier: gain at about 80% of full, polarity 'normal', crossover 150 hz. and after playing with the phase, I found with the sub at the opposite side of the room from the Bryston Model T mains and at around 25 feet distance, 45 degrees works to make the sub sync harmoniously with the woofers in the Model T's and produce the most output.

After listening to Timo Maas 'Connected' which is electronic music mix with a lot of varied bass content I found the sub to be totally transparent in the room. I cannot really say where it is vs. the Def Tech 15 inch 500 watt sub which I could point to in the dark. The Def Tech was more in your face with hard hitting bass, but could be muddy if too loud. The EP500 no matter how loud I play it, it's silky smooth, not in your face.

I switched to vinyl and put on Don Henley "Dirty Laundry" which has great bass at the intro and it was just superb. Very nice defined bass, hard hitting (probably not as hard as the EP800, but still right there). From there I switched over to The League instrumental, again mostly electronic with wide ranges of material, but lots of good bass. Very impressive, again the EP500 is very smooth, balanced and integrates with the Bryston's like it's a Bryston Model T placed at the back of the room, the sound is just immersive. There is an obvious first cousin relationship going on with the Axiom driver and the Bryston's. They just play right.

One thing I 'think' I am hearing and not imagining because I want to; the use of the XLR cable seems to have dramatically improved the overall response the sub, it's cleaner, more detailed and the bass seems much tighter, could it be me? Or is the driver breaking in

The Def Tech 15 inch sub played with more low end impact, but it was a muddy presentation vs. the EP500 which no matter how high I turn it up, it doesn't change. The Def Tech had to be carefully watched, the level could not be over 60% or that was it, total mud. How is the EP500 vs. the Paradigm monster 15 inch 4500 watt sub I demoed here? No where near the power or output, but cleaner sounding, it just works with the T's. The Paradigm over powered the room and everything was vibrating, not what I am looking for at all. And the EP500 vs. the SVS PC 13 Ultra? The Ultra put out a lot of nearly low frequency output, with a lot of slam like a disco, but again, it was not as silky smooth as the EP500. If someone is looking for extreme output, the larger brothers of the EP500 might be your choice, but again I am trying to round out very high output Bryston's, not over take them. The EP500 appears to do this well. When I graze around the room as Mojo likes to call it, I cannot tell where the EP500 is or if it's even on. But when I turned it off, wow, it seemed thin and naked in the room; so it's doing its job well. Again, it's as if I have another Bryston Model T at the back of the room on steroids for the low end.

With experimentation on crossover settings, the 150 hz. setting works best with the T's. Again it totally blends. If I move to 80 Hz, the Bryston's stand out, you can really point to them as the EP500 is doing only lower bass ranges. But at 150, the EP 500 becomes another Model T in the space. It's interesting to hear.

So the question is, to add another EP500 to get even fuller similar material, or do I add in the EP600 or 800? for more chest slam? What do I do?

BTW, vinyl rules here! this EP500 with the T's and perfect original analog vinyl is just the cup of tea for me; the sound is so silky smooth.

Slim

By the way, I am sticking with White dust caps

I have a pair of the EP500 and could not be happier. With the two of them on with some content you can get the whole room shaking. I was told when I ordered them that the pair will help give you a bit lower frequency as the two will have an additive effect. I have not heard an EP800 so i don't have a reference to what it sounds like. I know for myself listening to clastical music with the warnings on the CD that playing too loud can blow your speakers, I have never

1. had a problem with blowing the EP500. it takes whatever I throw at it.
2. feeling disappointed that I am not getting the sound that I deserve.
3. wished that I had bought a larger unit.

This is very encouraging and now I am looking forward to my 800 even more (due to arrive on Thursday).

Is the 45 degree phase shift via your pre-amp?

150 Hz sounds like a very high number. Is this the cross-over on the sub or the pre-amp? Anything higher than about 80 Hz for a cross-over will cause voices to emanate from the sub and that's not a nice thing.

I don't know if you'll get chest slam with a 600 or 800. These are linear subs that will put out no more than that which they receive. I'll know more later this week.

BTW, there's an 800 in the B-stock store

I'm going to have to buy a receiver with XLR outputs. Balanced signals are more noise immune and suffer less degradation with distance.

Matman,

You have a nice set up there.

I too am using the AVM 60 preamp and like it very much. I feed it to the Parasound A51 with 5 channels. I use two channels to the left and two to the right Bryston T's, bi amping. Each channel at 4 ohms is outputting 400 watts. The dynamic power of the T's fills this 10,000 cu foot room very well, but Its so large that I need subs to round things out. Thus far, the EP500 is holding it's own. I am sure you are right, a second one would really do the job. But I cannot keep from wondering if the second sub was to be the EP800, how would that effect the over all balance.

I want a 500 now too!

I think this techno rock you listen too might benefit from at least a 600.

Mojo,

I was very surprised to see the amp controls on the sub, they are nothing like the photos on catalog sheet here online. The photo shows a switch for 0 or 180 phase. But what i got was a full range pot from 0 to 180 degrees, so you can adjust anywhere in that range. I found 45 degrees sync'd up best for a harmonious sound with the Model T's and with more apparent felt output.

So you say that the XLR is of course more immune to noise pickups as it is balanced, but also less signal degradation? I guess that's what I proved out, yes a huge improvement in detail and very apparent tighter bass response, it was immediately evident.

For my installation, the 150 hz crossover is more dynamic; it melds best with the Brystons.

When you get your 800, let me know if the amp has the full range pot for the phasing vs. the switch.

Craig, do you have a full-range pot on your 800 for phase? This will allow for very granular time alignment with the mains.

Ian needs better marketing.

They need to update the photos on the catalog pages online.... the new stuff is much nicer than the older designs, but it's not showing.

I really like the versatility of the new amp. Plus it's black anodized, not aluminum like in the photos. The other nice item, is the new style laser engraved serial number plates; no more stickers! It's the same plate they use on the new Brystons

Also, the black cloth cover which comes on the speaker has Axiom silk screened on it, looks nice. I wish my Model T black cloth cover had Bryston silk screened on it

Oh really? By the cloth cover, do you mean the grill? Is the grill magnetic?

No I am talking about the cloth 'bag' which comes on the speaker with a nice draw string to pull it tightly closed. I use one on the Model T by windows when not in use to keep the sun off the wood veneer.

The grill is magnetic and it holds in position like crazy, but I love the look of the driver, so I use it without covers on any of the speakers.

So my 800 is going to be wrapped in a cloth bag? What the hell am I going to do with a 4-foot tall cloth bag?

The 800 driver is better looking because it doesn't have a dust cap. I think you should get 8 of those.

I have news for you, breaking news, you are getting white dust caps on those drivers, a black anodized amp, a bag which you won't be able to remove, but no worries, you can play the sub bagged.

I really like the white dust caps on the LFR1100s but I've never liked them in a larger driver. I don't like black either. I sure hope I get the driver shown in the photo.

The amp sounds killer!

For all we know, the 800 might be able to reach down to 2 Hz now. Axiom's making all these changes but no one knows about them.

Slim, I think you should have serenity_now come and tune your room and system. You should see the science he did with his room.

He also built his own 170 lb each monolith of a speaker. He'll have that room so tightly designed, you'll be able to graze with 1 cm resolution with no change in response.

And of course I need to come there too because serenity_now is not a professional engineer like me. You'll need his design stamped by me. I'll stamp the design using the blood that trickles out of my ear drums.

Mojo,

You guys are welcomed to certify this room, stamp it, re-certify and then have at it until bourbon runs out or you go deaf.

I'll be happy to sit back and take it all in.

On another note; I am switching out to all XLR feeds to subs from here on out. Too bad I just had a custom 40 foot RCA terminated sub line made up for me by Blue Jeans cables.... nice heavy duty cable, but I am switching out. I don't think that they take in trades.

You can graze around us while serenity_now works his magic and I chant incantations to drive out the distortion demons.

Serenity_Now used AI techniques to augment his room. I hope he shows up here and points to what he did. It's truly impressive and I am in awe of his geekness.

Did you know he used to be hell_commute when he lived in Calgary but is now serenity_now because he has no commute where he lives.

Are you still liking the 500?

Yeah, still enjoying the EP 500 on my second night.... listening to the original sound track of Easy Rider from 1969. Great mix of all the great bands and the recording isn't bad at all. Those old records never had a lot of bass. The bass was more pulled back in the background, but it sounds really nice and smooth.

The sound of the EP500 is not like most other subs I have heard. I think Ian's DSP is designed to be very flat and linear, not accentuated in any particular range. Most other subs I have heard seem to emphasize some particular low bass note. It's what gives that chest hit on strong notes. It's like using an 8 band equalizer and pumping up one range.

If I were trying to make a disco club in here, I'd opt for another sub which would beat my chest, this sub is great for well rounded, silky smooth music that fills a room like a small underground club with a live band, the bass player isn't drowning out everything else and moving the drinks off the table to the floor. It's just plain old nice.

But keep in mind the factor of relativity here, I am in a 10,000 cu foot space using this EP500 in an area far larger than it was designed for; if it were in a space a third the size, it might very well provide the chest slam. I have been comparing it to subs running three times the power. My thought on this plan was to use smaller subs, and more of them around the room vs. one or few large subs. It's all relative.

"Yeah, still enjoying the EP 500 on my second night."

That feeling will pass and you'll want an EP800

You gave a very good description of what Ian was always targeting and it sounds like he's achieved. I'll tell you it was a long process for him punctuated by misfortunes but he persevered through it and certainly did have some serendipity along the way.

Do you have the 800 and simply adding a second one? Or are you ordering your first 800 due to arrive this week?

I have a 600v2 which I'll be replacing with an 800v4 which I hope has no dust cap and the cool amp.

So a ported 600 in how large an area? I'll be very curious to hear your thoughts on it.

Is the 600 v2 also considered flat and linear?

I have a 4200 ft^3 space but it's open to the rest of the house. The 600 can completely overwhelm my entire house and my neighbor can feel it next door. What it can't do is punch me in the chest.

A few weeks ago I had an episode with it and had to go to the hospital. I turned it right up and also turned my receiver right up and then played a techno rock track. I had never done that before. I threw up all over the place and could barely gather my wits about me to turn it down. Fortunately it doesn't appear I've suffered any long term damage. When I returned, every painting in my basement was skewed and I have paintings that are 6 ft x 8 ft.

Axiom would like to think it was flat and linear From the 800 measurements I saw Dale Rasco take, Axiom's subs have come a long way. And those measurements are "old" so I am sure there have been improvements. In fact, Axiom has come a long way and it's time for Ian to get the story out. When Craig tells me the 800 is better than the JL Fathom, that says a lot.

I demoed the Paradigm 2000 SW not long ago. It was here when I had the Bryston Middle T's before getting the Model T's.

That sub with it's 15 inch driver and 2000 watts rms was just too much even in my monster room. I found it boomy and muddy, not to mention it turned all of my artwork sideways and caused glasses in the kitchen to lose footing. That sub had major chest pounding effects. But I didn't like it; not my cup of tea at all; not even bad bourbon.

I have never heard the F212 JL, but I suspect the EP800 would do a nice job of competing; I'd love to hear them both.

I want my Model T's to do the heavy lifting here, the subs need to be co pilot

Yeah...Ian's design philosophy is you should get out what you put in. Nothing more and nothing less. I guess that results in this "transparent" bass that you are witnessing.

Andrew and Ian are doing some amazing things. I am glad to see that he finally has some good engineering talent. It was severely lacking in the past. A lot has been cleaned up and I do think that Ian can go to his grave (not anytime soon) knowing that he created something very unique in the industry on many fronts.

I never heard of Axiom until I got the Brystons. That is what drove me to looking at their subs as I have not been happy with any subs I have been using other than my old Def Tech RIP. Although I was quoted $150 for a new OEM driver for it. I was tempted to order it in, but what I worry about is throwing good money after bad as when will the amp die? It's 15 years old.

But I thought I'd have to try out Axiom as I am very impressed with their workmanship on the Bryston. The EP 500 looks pretty much in line with the Brystons in build quality.

Can't wait to hear your report on that 800, and lets see if you get the new phasing control.

Did you ever see the photos of the inside of the Model T? It looks like a maze with all the bracing

I have never been able to find any internal photos of the T

Ok hang on.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=117372.0

And these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtSK64wXQBI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cdPUHJKx70

Speaker origami

This is good too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoHWZSFvW68

Axiom and Bryston are doing this for shits and giggles just because they can! Isn't that great?

Holy Moly, I had no idea of what was inside these babies. Extremely impressive! No wonder they are so damned heavy and sound so good!

Simply amazing. If I ever come upon a used Model T subwoofer, I might buy it just to see what it's all about. Ian told me that the Model T sub with it's three 8 inch drivers pushes about the same amount of air as the dual 12 inch drivers of the EP800. The amps are about the same, the cabinet size is similar, but the bracing I would assume would be much more substantial in the T sub as it costs over $5K.

I might have to bring in the 800 to team up with the 500 as my second sub vs. another 500; see, I am talking myself into it.

Bryston sells through dealers so there's that when it comes to the price.

This is good too.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/the-family-of-curves/

I'll take some time tomorrow to review the video's.... its a late night here

Don't forget you're only feeding it music atm.
Send it a proper LFE signal.....

Yeah...give the 500 a 19Hz tone!

But I don''t use it for HT..... its music

I know...but...but...

It's like buying a tesla and never trying the ludicrous mode, lol.

We're living vicariously through your posts over here lol.

The technorock stuff you listen to has low end for sure.

BTW, the Axiom factory used to be a furniture factory.

When Mojo pushes me over the edge with his report on the 800, and I end up getting one, that will be the Tesla moment

Like

I have some Detroit funk which has low end more than most hard hitting films.... that is what is the true test

Can you put that on and turn it up so I can hear it?

In case you came too late and or otherwise missed it Ian is using 600's now. That has to say something.
I'd hope to get his thoughts and a report on how it worked out.

Interesting that you bring up Ian and the 600's (that would make a good name for a band). He suggested I might want to enter the 600 into the mix vs. another 500; it goes a little lower. But the 800 goes lower and of course pushes a lot more air with the dual drivers.

I sense a great disturbance in the force...

I'd like to know why he's using a 600 instead of an 800.

Think he swapped a pair of 800's for 6's. Can't remember how many...

Best bass I ever felt was when we stacked/piled about ten powered subs last summer.
You could feel it (extremely gratifying) 300' away.

What were they?

Random subs

They make good subs. Very good company that one.

Just catching up with this thread.

Slim - Excellent write up on your 500. Mojo - your comments are spot on.

Between Ian and Andrew, they really have nailed the sound quality with their line of subs. When we did the under $1000 subwoofer thread 2 years ago, the new EP350 was the one sub that was stunning in its performance.

Even that "little sub" delivered serious bass, with lots of punch. At high levels, its floor was about 22 Hz, but that is PLENTY deep. And unlike the (still very nice) SVS-PC2000, it is, in my experience, impossible to get it to make a "bad sound".

The DSP controlled subs - and we have triple EP800's here (two in the main theater room and one in the basement high end theater) - are capable of hanging with the finest subs available. Stereophile recently raved about the SVS SB-16 Ultra.

We had the Ultra here, and ours was a properly working unit. The EP-800 was superior in every listening test. The only caveat is the Ultra will play a bit louder - but when it does, it is pushing things to the point of audible distortion.

We also have a Powersound Audio V-3601 which almost hangs with the EP800 for music and bests it for home theater. The down side is it is big and ugly. It does not fit with the decor - in fact, it is for sale if anyone wants to drive by and pick it up. PM me for details.

Our subs are the 180 degree switch. I may have to take this up with Ian.

Slim - you are on the right track. I think you would be pleased with an EP800, and reading about your journey is a lot of fun.

Mojo - the problem for Ian is his subs are not designed to win a Data Bass competition, and the magazines don't even give him an honest try.

We probably all need to do a better job representing Ian's products when people are here. We only do it because we love the hobby and appreciate the products. There is nothing in it for us.

Craig,

Funny you mention the PC 2000. That was the first sub I tried on Demo from SVS via my selling dealer. I thought it was a pretty good performer for the money. In fact I liked it better than the Ultra 16, but then again the one I had was not working up to par.

The PC12 Plus and the PC Ultra 13 were better than the PC 2000, less mud, but both of those units failed. For $800 US, the PC 2000 isn't bad. But the EP500 for not much more money is a much higher end piece and certainly built with far more quality in my opinion and it's a flatter more linear sound to it, no accentuated low notes.

I think that one sub of any type is not going to be the winner of both music and HT. You have to choose which direction you want to go or have dedicated rooms for both independently and set up appropriately. I am all music as I rarely watch movies (spend my video time in front of the current events/political cables shows).

Based on what I am hearing, I should probably add the EP800 into the room with the EP500, that might give me the additional low end power and still keep all the drivers in the same lineage for best overall balance. The EP500 will remain in the alcove where it currently sits as my plan is to build it into the bar area by the doors going out to the deck.

Slim

I've been just recently following this thread.

I was wondering if I could get your opinion on a few things?

I've been comparing subs via specifications and reviews to dollars

I can get an axiom ep500 for 1700 Canadian to my door.(and this is before any sales or loyalty discount)

Or I can get a SVS PB-2000 for 1100 (cad) to my door

An PSA 15S is about 1500 (cad) to my door.

An HSU uls-15 is 800 American plus shipping.


In the majority of reviews I've read, all these subwoofers vastly out perform the ep500, yet cost the same or much cheaper. All have intelligent dsp, weigh more, have bigger amps, etc.

I understand many reviews done on axiom are not the v4.

I also like how the manufacturing is done here in Canada.

I'm ready to pull the trigger in 2019 and buy an ep500, but it's extremely hard to ignore what is out there. Many of these companies have a long history of making subwoofers and only subwoofers(initially).

To hear you say the ep800 performed better and sounds better than the svs pb16 ultra is extremely interesting.

With all this said, in your opinion, why is the ep500 superior or on par to the subs mentioned?

I mean, I'm willing to pay extra just because this company has given me amazing customer service and it makes its own stuff in Canada, but I guess what I'm asking for is reassurance in my choice

I also don't want to let my axiom fan boyism to cloud my judgement either lol

Mr. Chesser,

I have used the PC 2000, the PC 12Plus and the PC13 ultra. All performed nicely, but in my opinion the quality control is not good at all as I suffered 4 failures within a 6 month timeframe. SVS is Chinese and my experience with any goods out of China is that you have to be very cautious. The other companies you list I have no knowledge of, but check to see where they are built.

I switched over to Bryston and Axiom as it's built in North America and the build quality is evident the minute you pull it from the boxing. As far as sound goes, I have not heard anything I like more than the Bryston Model T's I own. The Axiom EP500 is not as hit you in the chest powerful as some other subs, but then again, you could opt for the 800 as Craig states as being right up there with the best in the business for output and slam. It all depends on what you are trying to look for.

I'd go with locally made gear at a facility with people who care about what they are building. Not to mention, from what I have learned, they do have a lot of hands on engineering experience.

Slim

Thanks for your input

I concur. As I touched on in my post, your reasons of made in house, and my loyalty to axiom(my m80s are the best speakers I have ever owned), are enough for me

But hearing about your quality issues with svs directly is nice to know.

My father bought 2 pc-2000's and has been running them hot and hard for a year now with no problems. But I still suspect the axiom build quality to be much better

And I'm reminded of that everytime I unbox something new....

Yesterday it was the qs10's and the stands to go with it. Very solid machining on the stands in particular.

Mad Chesser - The reviews on subwoofers would never be permitted with full range speakers.

For example, if all we cared about was MAX SPL for the $$$$ with a speaker, buy a pair of dual 15 inch towers from Cerwin Vega, add a 2000 watt pro amp, and you have state of the art sound, right?

These sub reviews have no listening tests. All they do is measure the max output and report on it. I stopped reading these reviews two years ago, because these guys obsess over 1 dB at 20 Hz.

The two year long subwoofer testing I did with a panel of listeners starting 11 years ago and ending 9 years ago involved hours of blind listening. AFTER the listening, the measurements were taken.

No listening tests are done today, or there are these subwoofer "GTG" parties in which the two favorite "subwoofer guru / company owners" of the guys throwing the party are invited to set up the subwoofers. Amazingly, their subs win each time.

Of the subwoofers you listed, the only one that is "American Made" is the Powersound Audio. It's a good sub, but with a really low WAF rating.

The EP500 is a nice blend of output and refinement. It will shake your floor. It will sound like music. And NOTHING you can do will ever make it overload or distort. That is something that few subs can offer.

Axiom products are for adults. Their subs won't win an SPL contest. What they will do is deliver clean, undistorted bass in a real room. You will never have a moment in a movie where the subwoofer interferes with the performance by "farting" a loud port noise, or bottoming the driver.

Chesser, subs for me have been the most puzzling piece of the audio game. I have a used Yammie sub I bought for $100 and a more than 20 year old Sony sub I picked up at London Drugs for about the same price. Both of those deliver satisfying slam but I'm sure the slam I'm hearing is the non-linearity Axiom struggles so hard to avoid. Now I know non-linearity is not good as a general principle in engineering but damn I like it when I get punched in the chest and can still feel deep, pulsating bass. BTW, these cheaper subs can't deliver the deep, neighborhood-saturating bass my EP60PV2 does but they are satisfying nonetheless.

I'll be able to advise you better after I get my 800. It's encountered a weather delay in Ontario and won't get here tomorrow.

I know this is sacrilege for Ian but maybe he needs to have multiple modes for his DSP subs: linear, earth pulsator and chest punch. Linear would be the flat response he strives so hard to achieve, earth pulsator bumps the response below 22 Hz and chest punch bumps the response between 40 to 60 Hz.

I think it was said somewhere on here all the reviews are old. The product coming out of Axiom today is not the same design as 7 years ago. The cabinets have been stiffened with multiple window braces, nuts hold the drivers on, the crossovers are higher quality and better integrated with the driver characteristics, midranges have a much improved baffle, the HP drivers are more linear, the v4 tweeters are a sheer joy to listen to even at very loud listening levels, speakers have been optimized based on their family of curves, the subs have all been re-done including the amps. The bottom line in all of this is that Axiom understands its product now better than ever and I'm pretty positive the v4 line is as optimized as it can be within current architecture. Active crossovers now is the natural progression.

There's some real engineering talent there now. The Bryston relationship I'm sure has really helped because they can all hold each other accountable which ultimately results in better product. None of the improvements made were easy or cheap to effect by the way.

Thanks Craig for your take. Your perspective matches mine, based off how much I've lurked avs and audioholics forum boards these past 5 years. (A very unhealthy amount of lurking at that)

And thanks mojo too!

It's happening regardless like I mentioned in the first post, but basically didn't want to be buying off pure bias for my love of axiom

My loyalty discount was just processed...and makes it even sweeter to buy a sub now

I currently have two Cerwin Vega subwoofers. Nothing crazy. They were given to me.

I like the idea of an ep500 that matches the system I have.

The waf definitely matters lol


I promised not until 2019.

...its taking me forever to complete this system

4 to 5 years of one piece at a time lol

Mojo - The relationship with Bryston has been great for both parties, as the speakers have to compete with other VERY high end speakers in high end audio stores.

Then there is the addition of Andrew - the man is nothing short of stellar in his audio knowledge. The best compliment I have personally received in this hobby is on 3 separate occasions, Andrew/Ian have set up double blind A/B tests in Dwight for me. In each of the three, I reported roughly the same results as did Andrew.

After the third, Ian, in his "gut laugh" way, suggested that maybe I do actually know what the hell I am talking about.

Andrew is quiet, unassuming, and smart as one could want.

I would expect Bryston is lending a hand with amps and DSPs. That would make a lot of sense to me.

I have an idea, perhaps Ian and Andrew should work on some other DSP algorithms to enhance the ranges which the Disco/HT guys like and offer it as an upload via the USB port on the back of the amps. Or make an outboard controller with various equalizations which are selectable and you plug it into the USB port to select what you are planning on using the system for on any given evening. This might open up more potential buyers for the subs as it would appeal to a wider range and type of listener.

If you are using the EP800 for HT one night, you select low chest hit slam LCHS, if you are listening smooth music you select SM, if you are meeting John Travolta you select SNV Saturday night fever.

That's actually a good idea! I forgot all about the USB port because Axiom never did anything with it for field use. It was pretty much for factory use only. In the original DSP subs like mine, the USB port was used for firmware download only and couldn't be used to modify the config file.

"Axiom products are for adults."

craig:

That is a most astute comment. I wish that I would have thought of it when I was actively sparring with the few overly enthusiastic juvenile Axiom bashers in other sites. Thankfully that nonsense seems to have largely passed as I don't see much of it anymore.

BTW, I had a pair of Velodyne Subs that had 4 DSP selections (selected by a remote) for different freq response curves. I didn't find them to be all that useful & finally settled on the most accurate curve...

TAM

But what about those of us who want to be adults in the daytime and children at night?

I am all for rubber lipped nights

I am now living the teen years I never had.

OK, since my DSP idea was met with mixed reviews, but mostly positive (putting my Trump spin on whatever I say here....).

Here is my next idea, instead of ordering in the EP800, dual 12 dirvers, 800 watts rms amp. Why not order in two EP 500's, dual 12 drivers, but 1000 rms watts combined and stack them? The overall height would be about the same as one EP800, but you'd have two EP500's daisy changed and harmonically syncing in one location.

And another idea or question. Has anyone here ever used the SVS Isofeet? I have about four sets of them. I had them on all the SVS subs. They are a medium soft rubber doughnut in a steel cup with a center mounting hole to bolt them onto your speaker bottoms. Supposedly they isolate the floor coupling of the sub to wood floors as I have. I put them on my EP500 when it arrived, but I didn't try the sub with the factory hard rubber feet, which by the way are the exact same feet as on the Model T outriggers. I would never use these SVS feet on the T's, they are too soft and it would make the T become very unstable if bumped into. The Axiom firm feet hold it well in place.
Any thoughts on soft durometer rubber feet on subs to isolate it from the floor vs. allowing the sub to couple to the floor mechanically? Maybe I should try removing the SVS soft rubbers and putting on the factory feet for a comparison.

I did machine a custom installation of the SVS Isofeet on my VPI Ares3 turntable, which weighs around 60 or more pounds and voila!! Absolutely NO feedback into the tone arm with the loudest levels and highest bass... best thing I ever did.

As long as you order speakers during the day, you are safe.

If you don't need the extra low frequency bass, multiple 500s will give you more options. You could stack them or split them apart.

Heck, on days where you want to be an adult, move them apart and enjoy equipotential bass as you graze(TM). On days where you want to be a teen, stack them and dance your face off in the centre of your room.

As for the feet, I would say experiment. I'd be worried about bass being coupled to your platter.

Hee hee...

I am strictly considering the difference of using one 800 with a single cabinet, two drivers and 800 watts vs. two 500's stacked, two isolated cabinets, same two drivers and two separate amps with two power supplies and 20% more power.

perhaps the DSP was written differently between the two very different platforms, but the two stacked might enhance dynamic power over as single cabinet design.

The cost of two EP500's is about on par with a single 800, so I am simply thinking abstractly here

Slim, name some tunes you want me to play for you tomorrow when I get the EP800 set up.

Note to TAM: I am receiving the v4 and not the v3 which both of your beauty rosewoods are. It will have: no dust cap, the black amp with a continuously variable phase adjustment, improved bracing, carbon nanotube conducting substrate from the input terminal right to the driver, Dyn-O-Mite caps with nano-infused dielectric and Oh-So-Sweet output MOSFETS. I expect it to sound superior to the V3.

Mojo,

I forgot to mention, the latest version EP500 I got and I heard the 800 is not incorporating this upgrade for another two months, are Dilithium Crystal capacitors which can hold a high current over charge of 450%. And for service tech safety reason's they recommend three cap to ground discharges with urethane gloves on before opening up the circuits for testing.

If you have Shalamar "Dancing in the Sheet's" play it. Best bass yet. All slam

Don't look at the power, Slim. Look at the max output SPL. A machine can take more power but it may be more inefficient and hence that power is being wasted as heat.

EP500: 108 anechoically and 118 in room

EP800: 114 anechoically and 124 in room

If you stack two 500s, you'll get 111 anechoically and 121 in room.

If you stack two 800s, you'll get 117 anechoically and 128 in room.

The same analysis can be done for the 600. Of course we know these specs might be wrong, so it's best to send an e-mail to Ian and ask for his advice.

Ian already has an upgrade kit ready for me but I'm on my own regarding the urethane gloves.

If I recall, it takes a doubling of power to earn a 3 db increase in signal. So having 6 db more in the 800 over the 500 is impressive and that is probably due to coupling of the dual drivers. But my math above has to do with RF radiated from an antenna and it might be different from audio SPL

If I recall, it takes a doubling of power to earn a 3 db increase in signal. So having 6 db more in the 800 over the 500 is impressive and that is probably due to coupling of the dual drivers. But my math above has to do with RF radiated from an antenna and it might be different from audio SPL

Right on the 3 dB.

I made a mistake. Stacking two 500s will result in 6dB of increase. So if you stack two 500s, you'll get 114 anechoically and 124 in room which is the same as an EP800.

But you won't get the deep bottom end of the 800 as you know.

MOJO NOTES ON SET UP:

I removed the "third T" tonight. In other words, I moved the crossover point down from 150 hz which made for a Third T here and went to 80 hz... Houston, we have slam

Slim

Perhaps by allowing the sub to just work the 80 down frequencies, and not 'compete' with the stuff up to 150, the driver can operate quicker and give more of the tight bass feel??? I am not sure if a driver working half the frequency range can be more efficient.

That's very interesting. You should experiment with lower cross-over points as well. Unfortunately I've tried with mine and it's a no-go.

It's not a matter of the driver operating quicker because the frequencies we're talking about are very slow. It's more that the 500 is not enough sub to cover the entire spectrum for your large room but if you narrow the bandwidth, the power appears to be more than adequate. I would expect the majority to cross over 80 Hz or below.

I did, 80 hz seems (for now to my ears) work very well. I decided to let the Model T's be T's and not round them out. I am letting the EP500 be the sub and not try to be a T. I noticed the difference from the office in the house; the floor was beating to Timo Maas.

And this is not speaker break-in which I don't believe in. It's me getting used to the subtle sounds after two days.

If the driver is expected to produce all the range up to 150, that might take more power demand from the amp, hence a reduction in power being delivered to the "slam" frequencies. By rolling off the 80 to 150 hz range, it's leaving more for the lower frequencies upon demand. That could explain why I am feeling more in the other room. If there is a 3 db reduction in demand from the lack of using higher frequencies, then in effect you are doubling the power to the lower ones.

Please don't think that I know what I am talking about, I am not an electrical engineer! I am only asking questions of the in house professors.

I like that Shalamar. I bet it sounds fantastic with the Ts.

I turned my system up about as much as I can handle for a short bit but my 600 isn't really doing anything on that track. What about your 500?

Changing crossover points changes time alignment. You are only ever really in phase in a narrow band between the sub and speakers. You just got lucky and summed correctly when you dialed it down.

This is where being able to independently set delay comes in handy. With multiple subs you can create a quasi planar wavefront. This is how to max out impact from smaller subs.

Yes, it sounds like because your room is so big, you had to turn the gain knob on the back to 3/4. That, combined with opening it up to 150 Hz, caused compression.

I've never seen compression curves for the 500 but here they are for an older version of the 800 across its entire usable band.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/sub-zone-subwoofer-testing/62085-axiom-ep800.html

So the continuously variable phase control should really help with time alignment, right?

Shalamar works perfectly with the T's.... Erasure "chains of love" is another perfect bass test, talk about slam.

If I dial this in further with either two more EP500's or the EP800 in the one corner I just know it's going to work, I'll have to call this SlimSlam...

Don't forget; I am using all original Analog vinyl in perfect condition on a VPI Ares3 tt with a SME Series iv tonearm (I machined the board to make it work, two days work).... it makes a huge difference over CD's, night and day. The dynamic sound is huge

Also delay can be set with the distance setting on the receiver, no?

OK, so we adding in all kinds of very technical tweaks here.

If you use some of the room correction software, I think that you can adjust the time delay between various speakers. However I turned off all room correction from my Anthem ARC2 in the preamp. The Bryston's jumped out of their veneer; major improvement just letting Bryston's be Bryston's. I was shocked at how much better everything sounded, I mean shocked.

I called Bryston to speak to them about this, I was told that he was very pleased to hear what I had to say; he said they don't like any room correction with the Bryston speakers, the speakers stand on their own without any 'filtering'. If the design is sound, they don't need to be 'corrected'.

I have to agree with him on this. I originally purchased the SVS Ultra Towers, they were OK without room correction, but when I ran the correction, they popped and came alive. Because of that, I automatically ran the correction algo's on the T's when I brought them home.... I was so blah on it, so I turned it off and holy moly, it was like I tripled the power and added another pair of T's into the room. In fact I thought I had made a screw up on the room scan. I did it over again and then again several times with the mic at varied points in the room. Each time it couldn't come close to the T's alone, no correction; it was like taking a pillow off the drivers.

I like to keep things very simple, I actually need to. I like a simple phase pot, as now added to the amps on the Axiom subs! Fun to play with and man can I dial it in. They say most cannot hear the differences, but I sure can.

80hz is the most recommended from most AVR. manufacturers especially those with the THX certification.
It is essentially setting your speakers to a small setting though the biggest of small. Which itself is good since you have subwooferage for the low notes.

I myself have the M80s and a EP500 as part of my home theater. Was previously an Onkyo and Integra user those A.V.R.s would always set all my speakers to 40hz. almost cancelling out my subs I usually reset them to 60hz since I use an external 3 channel ADA1250 have no worries of power with lower setting.

Now in the last week have joined the Axiom/Anthem club which the Anthem MRX720 finally set my crossovers to 80 itself?{weird first time}

With your external Amperage. you could safely have crossover as low as you want without any power concerns. Unless you have it at 11 continuously.

Congrats

This is quite an interesting thread as most of us have been mentioning a showdown of the 2 brands for quite sometime now.
Although not a showdown a fun read

I will agree with you that without room correction, SPL (volume) increases. And when a speaker is louder, it sounds better to us Also room correction can make highs sound bad. There can be other deleterious effects also.

So look beyond just volume. Your room may be perfect and not need any correction. I can't say the same for my room. Audyssey XT32 worked magic.

Now for Bryston to say that if the design is sound they don't need to be corrected, speaks volumes about how much they need to learn about the system comprised of the speakers, the room and the brain/ears. A better designed speaker will sound better though in a bad room than a poorly designed speaker for sure.

Absolutely, the speakers without ARC2 sound 'louder', definitely. but not twice as loud. But more importantly, the mid's and high just came alive, and the effect of the sound stage as they like to say, whatever that is, had some meaning finally. I could hear instruments in places I had not heard them before.

I have on occasion switched the ARC2 back on just to play and each time I do it, I feel like I just threw water on things.

Perhaps ARC is going to work great on more conventional rooms, ones which are rectangular as in most homes, but I have been dealing with a real odd ball room with multiple materials in the construction which make each wall different and I am sure this plays into this. Maybe the software engineer who wrote ARC configured it for a standard type of room? There is a lot to this stuff.

It can't possibly be that the Ts are better than the SVS Ultra Towers. I mean...the SVS have composite glass-fiber cone with excellent stiffness/mass ratio for high sensitivity and pistonic behavior beyond pass band.

It goes to show that a speaker (like anything) has to be designed as a system. It's not about an esoteric cabinet or driver or cross-over but rather the effective integration of all the sub-systems and knowing what the secret sauce is that leads to that effective integration. For Axiom, it's the interpretation of the Family of Curves.

SVS is pistonic huh? No comment

I like aluminum, black, white, caps, no caps...... Axiom white, Bryston Black, it's all good

Maybe you need to diddle with ARC. Apparently you can adjust the curves manually. For me, the bass in my room is boomy and muddy without XT32. As soon as I turn it on, the muddiness goes away and I have seemingly endless soundstage and instrument resolution.

Yes I am running a separate amplifier in class A, A/B as the power rises. I have two channels of the amp running to each main speaker in bi-amp configuration. At 4 ohms on the Bryston's it's 400 watts to each section. So I don't have to worry about robbing power. It was a pretty impressive difference bi amping, more dynamic output. I don't wish to steal two of the channels to do any surround sound application at this point,.

I have a friend who has Model T's and Middle T's (for his room the Middle T's work better, less overloading). He also run's Parasound amps. He has the A31 three channel and a pair of JC1 mono blocks which look identical, but he tells me the difference in performance is night and day, he hears things on the JC1's he cannot hear on the A31. I forget what he told me the JC1's run for output at 4 ohms, but I think its something like 900 watts per channel.

You have the older sub with the port correct? I wonder is the new sealed design eliminates your muddy sound. I would not be surprised.

Ebony .... And Ivory ... Living side by side in perfect harmony ..

I am actually breaking down in tears now..... but it could be because I am laughing so good

Mine is indeed the ported 600. Even with the sub out of the picture though, the bass is boomy and muddy.

Carpet floor or ?

Berber with underlay.

Over concrete.

Dirt under the concrete. More like clay actually.

I wonder if the carpet is making things muddy? I have all wood floors here, there has to be some reflection issues to account for, and maybe that is why I am not hearing mud. Just a thought

Is it red clay? Red clay is always boomy.

We have 3 rooms with XT-32 ... and it is awesome.

Mojo is hearing mud because his clay is not really clay; its loam with high moisture which turns into mud. That is what he hears with too much Shalamar

Nothing to do with the carpet. I even tried the M80s upstairs in my living room which is pretty much open to the rest of the house and same boominess and muddiness. I have hardwood floors upstairs.

Craig, I got the XT-32 because Christos Kyriakakis, specifically told me their coefficents corrected for the boundary interaction of concrete and clay.

I am hearing a new pair of Brystons on order......

What version M 80's do you have?

I have v2s. Brystons are out of the question for me. I just don't have that kind of spare cash.

Look around for used ones.... you can find a good deal

Can't wait to hear your report on the EP800..... I suspect it's going to be like the difference between the Middle T and Model T. Same good sound, but more of it. Are you taking the day off from work to do the install?

Mojo:

You will have one V4 in a large room. I have two V3s in <2500 cu ft. Therefore, according to quantum physics, 2 X V3s = V6. All in less than half of your space.

That is a recipe of overkill IMO - hence outstanding performance.

BTW, although it is completely unimportant, I must advise that I have no dust caps either, but I do have some big slabs of HG Rosewood...

TAM

"You will have one V4 in a large room. I have two V3s in <2500 cu ft. Therefore, according to quantum physics, 2 X V3s = V6. All in less than half of your space."

LOL! Good one!

Your drivers are all shiny aluminum then? They are not all white with white dust caps?

Slim, I wouldn't want used ones. I have no idea what kind of Frankensteinian Ts were designed and produced before everyone finally got it right.

They are all white, smooth concave with no visible dust caps (like those found on other Axiom drivers).

I'm just about to crank up 'Star Wars 7' Blu Ray tonight in preparation of the new release coming up. We just finished watching 1 thru 6 like we always do before Xmas since we have the remastered boxed set. The remastered sound track is really top notch...

TAM

Like the ones shown below?

http://www.axiomaudio.com/deals/b-stock/1285

Wait a minute, that's stock photo with no speakers at all, those are open portholes.

I have caps

I'll be working out of the house tomorrow waiting for the shipment. It left Woodbridge, Ont at 10:34 this morning. I don't know if it's being flown or trucked. Truck would take more than 32 hours.

Where are you? Up near the Arctic circle? You might have to warm those drivers up before making any electrical connections

They truly are white drivers with no caps I guess. I just thought it was a bad photo. My 600 has a silver driver which I think is ultra cool. Like the one in the photo below.

https://www.soundstage.com/traveler/traveler200409.htm

I think the white driver looks cool too though. I'd like to be able to swap driver colors at will. Wouldn't you? White when one is feeling like a chic and sophisticated adult and silvery when one is feeling like a reckless teen.

Oh my god! That thing is monstrous! And a one eyed monster no less

Calgary, Alberta. We've had a very mild winter so far.

the white driver and white cap I have is actually a reversion cone, it's not for dust at all.

Ah, just north of Burnsie

It's 46" tall. The port snakes up into the cabinet. I tried all kinds of experiments including stuffing pillows into it, my kids, my leg up to my thigh...

Mine look like this:

http://www.soundstage.com/equipment/pics/201007_axiom.jpg

TAM

Is that white or silver?

I like that wood. I think you should trade them in so I can snag them.

The variable phase controls are useful. They can align the drivers at a given frequency between sub and speaker.

What the dial doesnt do is time shift the sub ahead to account for its DSP/Amp/large driver latency. You need to shift it ahead of your towers in time using delay settings. The distance setting (increasing distance over physical location) helps with this.

The one stop shop to do this without manually doing latency close mic measurents is Dirac. Otherwise its sub latency+Physical distance= Avr Setting. Then you can fine tune phase with distance or phase dial settings. I just leave the dial at zero and do from behind mic position with remote while watching graphs. Geeky all the way!

Btw, SVS dials are not really useful at all in my experience. They are not accurate from unit to unit. Have to verify manually. Especially gain. Way off between units.

You have better odds of raising $8000 by selling pencils on the street corner to get the cash for a pair of new Rosewoods than you do Tam trading his in ...

I don't think TAM has been clear on how he feels about his subs.

About time alignment...my impression is that XT32 does a great job. I read that so many people believe their autocal gets the sub distance wrong. The sub distance shown takes into account all delays; it's not just the physical distance to the sub. What I don't understand however is if something like xt32 corrects for frequency-dependent group delay or applies some average.

Tam,

Are your subs Santos Rosewood? I know that they offer two types of Rosewood, the Santos being the more difficult variety to get now. But if yours are the older V3, then I assume they are Santos as it was more readily available as Ian told me. He said the price of Santos Rosewood went through the roof in the past year or so. My T's are about a year and half old or so and they too are in Santos Rosewood. I have not seen the other Rosewood they offer, I think he said its and African species and I don't know how it would match the Santos. I just ordered the standard Black Oak vinyl and it looks just great and the sub blends into the background.

The drivers are white with no caps. The pic looks a bit more like silver but they really aren't. Of all of the pics on the net, it seems that it is difficult to get an accurate pic of the drivers - probably due to the contrast between the bright drivers & dark cabinet.

I don't know what kind of Rosewood that I have. They are from a few years ago & are different from the RW that is available today. The colour is a little lighter than my more recent M22s that have a darker burgundy shade. Not an exact match but beautiful nonetheless...

TAM

Come to think of it - my EP400s have no dust caps either...

TAM

Four pics down best shows the drivers that I have:

https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=244264#Post244264

TAM

OK, I am going to have to order all future drivers without caps. I think they are in the collector class from what I can see ..... I might return my new EP500 under the 30 day trial (they came in with caps) and request capless drivers...... I don't wish to be left out in the cold. You Canadian guys have a leg up on us Yanks

How do you guys post photos here? I wish I could post photos of the Santos Rosewood Model T's

BTW, I think my buddy Adam might step up to the plate and order in an Axiom Sub.... he is a non sub guy, All Middle T and Model T, no subs. I told him today how well the Axiom blends. He runs twin Parasound JC1 mono blocks and Mark Levinson amps, no subs. I told him he needs these

Mojo need these too

Look at my EP800v4 post. I have caps

I need whatever you and Adam have

I use Google Drive to post photos here.

Tell me Mojo, how is that 800? I am sure you installed it

At least the dust cap is rigid. You'd have to use a drill or a punch to make a hole in it.

I'll be posting my impressions in the EP800v4 thread I started. Don't hold your breath for the impressions though.

Spill the beans.... 800?

You have capped drivers and variable phase, good man

There are some things I need to do before I can say anything. Tonight, I am taking a break from tweaking and enjoying music, movies and smilax ornata.

BTW, I spent 3 hours last night listening to music in my pitch black cave. I was thinking how all my buddies tell me I have nothing to complain about. They are not just being nice; they really believe it. I was thinking how amazing the sound stage is and how well-positioned each instrument and voice is on that stage. Then my mind switched to how much sweeter each of those instruments would sound with the v4 tweeter, how much tighter notes would sound with the HP drivers and how better defined the bass would be with the EP800v4. I let all that go and just enjoyed the music.

We have to be careful because all this can become a disease.

You have been drinking

Yeah! Smilax Ornata

I'll have what he's having

First time I tried it was at my grade 11 physics professor's house. I liked it so much I started dating his daughter.

Bar tender, I'll have what he's having

And with that, I'll just say that I am loving this EP500 with the T's.... and sharpening GS skis for the hill tomorrow in the White Mountains. lots of new snow and time to open it up

Awesome!

To prove how good that stuff was, it wasn't his daughter, it was his mother in law.

Hmmmm...I'll dig up a photo Craig and I'd bet that mother-in-law would make you quite jealous

Have you looked at my signature? "Old enough to know better"?

So am I. Which is why I'm going to meet up with her again

800.....??

She's not THAT old.

Oh ... you were thinking subwoofers? My rule of thumb is the subwoofer should be equal your main speakers, in terms of investment. Get two 800's and call me in the morning.

Speaking of Advil,

Here is one new item for the record books: I was experimenting with moving some furniture around to make space for anything new such as an 800..... I moved an antique cabinet which is about 36 inches tall, 28 inches wide, maybe 13 or so inches deep away from where I was thinking an 800 would go. I moved it over to an area of intense bass in the room. It's about 6 feet diagonally across from where the EP 500 is currently resting (where the new bar is going). Low and behold, my EP 500 is putting out what seems like another 9 db output. Reflection? No idea what just happened, maybe too much bourbon, but I don't think that I am imaging this. I think the relocation of this cabinet reinforced low frequency in the room. This is better than $9K speaker cables ha!

So many things influence bass. We had an aerostar van and the wife had a stereo put in with a 10 inch sub which they put behind the front seats. It impact was less than spectacular, by alot. I moved it to the back of the van and faced it toward the tailgate and it pounded like no other. Same effect when i built a 10" for my Ford Probe , it was a hatchback and facing the sub towards the back really made all the difference. You just dont know till you try different things. Corner loading is always a good place to start. Ihave never done the sub crawl but im sure it beats the hell outta lugging a 150lb sub around.

Uhmmmm...no. Another much lower integer comes to mind when I think of her.

I am not going to delve into this; cannot afford to be banned

No one here gets out alive.

Hope that doesn't apply to your house!

Everyone leaves my house as a changed man or woman after a listening session.

There is a new slogan for Ian ... "The EP800 is so good, mere listening will cause a gender change".

Ok ... maybe not the best idea.

Cabin fever usually doesn't hit in Canada until February. Congrats for being ahead of the curve!

If you are imaging this, it's just the right amount of bourbon.

Yeah...

Actually, I find that the dual big drivers in the 800 without dust caps have a wonderful hi-tech & elegant appearance.

Unfortunately I cover them up with the grills as I have 4 felines that are not trustworthy when I'm not there, ha!

TAM

TAM, the amp in both of your 800s is at danger of shutting down because it's probably putting out less than a 1/4 Watt in that tiny dungeon you call a room...LOL! So you don't need what the dust caps offer me. I have mine CRANKED as far as it will go because I am in a cavernous cave.

Yes...I do agree they have an elegant appearance. But mine are far more high tech.

Indeed! That's why I'll be flying off to Scottsdale, Az to meet up with her

Only one solution MOJO MORE SUBWOOFERAGE>

I'll tell you this. You can never have enough 800s! Turning it up, just makes it pound harder. No distortion but clean, loud bass. Hence having more of them is better

Mojo loves his Mojo.... I mean 800

Update,

I have been running the EP 500 with 80 hz crossover with my CD media, it works perfectly. However with analog vinyl, 150 hz is much more dynamic. I suppose the bottom line is, it's all variable, no specific answers. It depends on the input to make the output

Very dependant on the input.
Digital media on my equipment is much louder than any analog previously on Oinkyo and a Teac pro{Integra}With another badge.

As well as on my new Anthem MRX720 need around 10 to 20DB more to equal similar digital volumes.

Thanx for the info need to play with crossovers and inputs now.
Cool that you can program that for the specific input.

Actually what I find is that the output level of vinyl records varies greatly with the vintage. The older late 60's stuff like Easy Rider sound track and Eric Burden or Thelma Houston all seem to be lower. My late vinyl such as Don Henley or The League are very similar to digital recordings. I think that the quality of the original masters were better at the late stage of vinyl before everything switched over to CD's. My Timo Maas CD which was recorded in Germany around 2003 is so well done, it approaches the vinyl quality.

I wonder if Andrew would be able to design an outboard control to plug into the USB ports of the subs which would allow for either remote control of the crossover settings or at least an auxiliary pot on a cable which could be mounted on the wall at the sub, that would be very handy to enable making changes with various music. I am amazed at how much the crossover effects the performance of the subs simply based on the recorded music being played. It's not really a set it and forget it type of control.

What USB port of the subs? It's gone!

There is a lot of info in this thread. From what I gather we need to add a control for boosting the "in-your-gut" bass frequencies, remove all the control knobs and switches from the back of the amp, and make the whole thing controllable from an Apple App, Android App, or WebUI. Is this correct? Did I miss anything?

On some other points brought up:

Steve is working on all the subwoofer product pages right now. They should be all updated in the next week. This is desperately needed!

The current drivers for all our subwoofer models have an aluminium dust cap; this method of construction gives us the highest level of heat-sinking from the voice coil.

Where the EP600 can make a lot of sense is if you want to run two or four subwoofers. Two EP600s is like one EP800 split in two. The two EP600s actually have move cabinet volume and amp power then the one EP800. Of course two or four EP800s is sub nirvana; TAM knows this already.

One of the greatest things with our subwoofers is the amplifiers that Andrew has designed. The linear power supply and high capacitance storage gives them excellent dynamic headroom and great properties when they hit max power due to the toroidal transformer. In music and movies it is the dynamic power capabilities that matter, not the continuous RMS output, but all the attention is given to the continuous output spec. This makes some sense in that the continuous RMS output is something that can be measured in a consistent fashion. Though I wonder about the ones that manage to have more continuous output than the wall socket they use can supply.

Apple and Android UI with DSP controls would be terrific. Yeah...Andrew knocked it out of the park!

Ian, I'd not opt for cell phone app control... too much risk of issues. I'd do an out board controller, something which could be plugged into the amp on the subs via a cable and not subject to software corruption. The cable would allow the user to place the controller where it's best for each room.

My experience thus far with the EP500 is that I like it a lot. It's super smooth. However I play with the controls to dial it in for what I am listening to based on the music source. An out board control would be fun.

What is being described here is the Mini DSP ...

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd

Handy little unit, run your RC then add it in and make changes at will. Add a highpass filter for the low bass to protect the driver. Unlimited manipulation along with REW.

Mojo and I are grazers, I am also a tinkerer, I love to tweak things. What I find is that each music source is different, there are subtle changes and sometimes a higher crossover is perfect and other times the lower crossover point works more effectively.

What I like about the EP 500 is that it's so linear and smooth, I can dial in exactly what I would like to hear with slight alterations of the crossover settings, I would not like Ian to remove any of the control functions at all. I like more, not less. However what would be cool is if there was an out board controller replicating the same functions as at the back panel so that we could have quick and easy access to making changes remotely.

My idea of having some other DSP configurations to select at will would perhaps appeal to those guys who want chest beating with their HT set ups. I am not into that, I like smooth music. If I want more dynamic power, I'd add in more subs, which I plan on; the multiplication factor is something to work with....

Ian would give you all the switches and dials that are on the amp currently plus a whole lot more, oh Chief Grazer. You could access the sub's control console from your phone over wifi.

OK Mojo, I am warming up to the idea of a phone app via wifi to play with sub adjustments on the fly.

So Ian is perhaps considering some of our brainstorming here; it certainly is a nice way to kick around tweaks.

As it is, I really like the new amp control with the addition of the variable phasing; I found it was useful in my set up. However, I didn't even look to see if the USB port was on it or not. Did you say that your new 800 didn't have the USB port?

Nope...no USB port; not that it matters. The variable phasing is very useful for me too. The app would be a killer!

Have you found the subsonic filter useful when using the turntable?

Actually, I don't need the sub-sonic filter with my Turntable as I modified 4 of the SVS Iso-feet for the subs to mount in place of the useless conical point feet that come with the TT. The medium durometer rubber feet with the 75 pound turntable totally isolates the feedback, I have virtually none. But keep in mind that I machined out the center hole in the steel cup of the Iso-feet to accept a shouldered rubber grommet in which I inserted a stainless machine screw which compresses on the grommet and I also cut 1/4 inch neoprene circles to sandwich between the steel cups and TT base. There is no direct contact of metal to the TT base, it's all isolated with rubber.

" Though I wonder about the ones that manage to have more continuous output than the wall socket they use can supply."
Ian
[/quote]

Ian, I just purchased 10 of the competitions subs with more output power ratings than what they consume from the outlet; I finally realized that these other companies have invented perpetual power devices and I plan on powering the entire house with more power than I purchase from the Grid!

Slim, ideally you want 2 subs to even out the bass. The Minidsp allows you to correct for anomallies in your bass . My last house had a huge suckout at 70hz as measured with a calibrated mic and REW, which happens to be right in the range where it hits your feelers. I managed to move subs around a bit and equalize and time align the subs with the Minidsp to help mitigate the issue. I have been lazy this past year and havent done much in the new theater but it is much more forgiving and my subs are both up front and corner loaded. Perhaps one day i will build my MBM's and do some measureing. I am no guru but i share what experience and maybe someone will take interest as well and dive down the bass rabbit hole like Trevor (serentitynow). Bass can sound good and be wrong, we all have our preferences and the room has a huge impact on the music we hear. Enjoy your adventure.

May I ask what the mini-DSP device is?

Minidsp You can create different filters for your sub. Highpass for ultra low bass to protect the driver from over extension. Parametric equalization of individual sub frequencies. You can get a umik 1 microphone calibrated by cross spectrum labs and use it with REW which is a free to use program for analyzing your room in any frequency band. After you measure the room you can see which frequencies are over boosted or have a suck out and you can use the minidsp along with room treatments and sub location to even out your bass. It can also be used for time alignment of your subs to your mains if the subs are away from your mains such as to the side or rear .

Now that I have an 800 and have put it through its paces, I really do feel like kick-ass room equalization is the last piece of the puzzle Axiom needs to add to the DSP-based subs.

My XT32 does a fine job from what I can hear but I would really like to be able to access the resulting curve and tweak it to satisfy myself that it really is optimized. I'd also like to have some pre-defined and user-defined modes. For some material or moods for example, I would want a gut punch mode while on other material I'd like the 'nad tickling.

Maybe I'll get my wish...

I'll have to send you an email with the next project Richard. It wont be for a bit though.

Be careful you don't get stuck tweaking.

Remember to enjoy the content

Click on the links in thread the minidsp is highly regarded,{affiliated with DIRAC EQ.} they've also got units you can add between the subs and output to do Eq. as well. Seems like a tedious process the R.E.W. but once you understand it's probably easy to understand the graphs.

The UMIK was my rational on upgrading to an Anthem unit. As It comes with a calibrated Mike and skips most of the hassle.

Brendo,

I too am using the latest from Anthem, the AVM 60 with all of its ARC2 horsepower; however I don't use it any longer. I found that it did a very nice job of tuning my room for when I was using some lesser speakers which seemed to have some internal crossover issues. But when I bought my Bryston Model T's, I tested several runs of the ARC2 with the Anthem and the Bryston's and no matter what I did with different test runs, I found the speakers sounded so much better without the room correction; it was night and day. The 'filtering' from the ARC just muddied up things in my opinion.

BUT, I am very interested to see what varied DSP programs would do with the subs as its a much more narrow range of frequencies being 'tuned'.

Then you'd have a much easier time using the ARC software to sort out your subs for smoothest placement response as well as speakers placement. Since you have similar software already, then play with phase,crossover etc. and save it to one of your config. settings.

From what I've come to understand the ARC, DIRAK and REW with UMIK are all similar in the way you can use the graphs to get best out come then use that tech. For R.C..

Being you already bypass the ARC setting getting into the REW maybe a waste of time except for having more precise readings of a particular bandwidth.

brendo:

"Be careful you don't get stuck tweaking. Remember to enjoy the content."

Very wise comment.

I spent very little time tweaking with Audyssey then turned it off as it added more high freq response to the mix that I didn't think was necessary nor as pleasing as Axioms 'au naturel' in my room. I then used my RS Sound Meter to set even sound levels at my MLP.

I haven't touched them since - I just enjoy.

We watched 'Polar Express' last night - that steam locomotive really shook our house to its foundation, ha!

TAM

The only tweaking I have done is with the subs; moving them to different locations, setting crossover frequency based on music content or type of input and that's about it. No ARC here, but I love to play with the lower frequencies as it varies so much.

A couple of thoughts. Using a measurement program to place your speakers for smoothest response is a bad idea. Same with subs. You should place them where they sound best and create a seamless soundfield.... Not how they measure best. A measurent microphone cannot discern direction or dimension. Use the measurement program after to record a baseline and correlate measurements with subjective impressions. Much more useful for further tuning.

ARC, Dirac, Audyssey, whatever, do nothing to change your room's acoustics or environment. Using these on good speakers or in a good room is often detrimental. They may "fix" something, but usually cause an audible issue in the process. Unless you are in a situation like Mojo and your room is just unfavourable without something to deal with modal issues -where parametric EQ is very useful.

Setting up a room right with a focus on its physical properties FIRST will do much more good for sound than any automated EQ filter. Promise.

I am with you Trevor... just work with placement of the speakers, and as I like to do, play with the crossover and phase controls on the subs. Once I dial it in, its hard to tell where the sub is in the room. You feel it, but you just cannot point to where it is. It's all seamless, dynamic and very even

If you dont measure you dont know what your fixing. Room treatments both absorbitive and diffracting are necessary.Audyssey mess's around with the upper frequencies more than i like , Dirac not so much no idea about ARC .I say try the RC if you like it good, if not you can always defeat it.

I was told, 'sold' on ARC by my audio dealer. He said it was the best thing in audio in recent memory and a must have. Being a newbie (a new newbie as I have been in Audio from the vintage side for a very long time, but not up on the latest, greatest) I thought sure, why not, lets give it ago.

It worked well with the SVS Ultra Towers (my first purchase after loosing my vintage speakers to a lightning hit), they did benefit from the ARC2 handsomely in my room. But when I replaced those speakers after a few months of use with the Bryston Model T's, I found that the ARC2 ruined the wonderful full, dynamic fullness of the T's. All of the touchy feely mids/highs of the T's just went blah. Can you read that I wanted a speaker that bested my old towers? The SVS's didn't do it.

Bottom line, I love the natural sound of the T's, I really don't want to play with it. They just work well for 'me' in my room. I don't want no stinking room correction Except for some fun tweaks with bass curves.....

As Trevor said, I have "modal issues"

My small audio room (10x10x8) has Trevor's old room treatments in it and bookcases and paintings. Based on his recommendation, I placed my speakers such that I am sitting on a diagonal. No EQ needed. The room gives a very intimate presentation that is extremely pleasing.

Then, enter my man-cave. It's boomy and muddy but turn on XT32 and it's magic. This particular room is the polar opposite of the small room - it's wide and open and with blinders on, you'd never know there were any boundaries. To achieve this level of performance without XT32, I would need professional help and I am sure custom treatments.

With the 800, the bass in my man-cave is exactly what I always dreamed it should be. Nonetheless, I am waiting in anticipation to try the new "GUT PUNCH" mode.

Mojo, you just had to do the gut punch.... How large is this man cave environment you have going? An inquiring mind just has to know

It's less than half the size of your grazing space (4,200 ft^3). It's open to the rest of the house via a staircase so I do lose some sound pressure.

I used to sit 8' away from the M80s on the diagonal but I've re-arranged the room and I am now 14' away which has made the soundstage unbelievable. Model Ts or LFR1100s would fit right in to this space for sure.

My HT room is quite irregularly shaped. The speakers fire diagonally across the listening area to my MLP from the alcove where a large window resides behind them. My MLP is 11' from the speakers & TV.

I therefore seem to not have problems with standing waves & suckouts due to this configuration which BTW is the only way that I can arrange my gear in this space.

Just lucky I guess & it is aesthetically pleasing as well...

TAM

You have dual EP800s in that tiny room which means there is no space for standing waves to develop.

That's right - just pure pleasure being injected directly into my skull.

I luv overkill...

TAM

As far as I can tell, in that room, the bottom drivers of the EP800s are united with each one of your 'nads and the top drivers are massaging your gut. Pretty soon you'll be able to upgrade your amps so you can take advantage of GUT PUNCH or NAD TICKLER modes.

I suspect that smooth Bourbon and Disco Fever might be showing up in some fashion

Yes...apparently the Mode switch will come in Mojo or Slimpikins flavours.

Ian likes my Disco Fever over top of Bourbon Mellow.... I am still thinking Bourbon Mellow over Gin gut punch

New observation:

I bought my VPI Ares3 turntable last May with the super platter from a guy out west. It came to me in mint condition without a tone arm as he removed his Dynavector ($7K tonearm),,he didn't wish to part with it understandably. I picked up a wonderful SME Series IV magnesium arm and I machined the tone arm board in the mill to accept the SME. I have been using this set up since last spring with amazement in how it performs..... and how warm it sounds with the Model T's and EP 500.

I had asked Howard, the gent who sold me this TT, when the last time he put lube on the bearings of the super platter, he told me that he never lubed it !!!!!! Huh??? Yikes!!!. OK, it appears from what I can see to be an oil impregnated bronze bearing over stainless steel, it should survive.

Anyway, I got in some 'superlube PTFE' lube today; this is a silicone based dialectric and food grade grease with PTFE, also known as Teflon, which is water resistant and a corrosion inhibiting grease compound. I lifted the 25 pound super platter off of the main bearing spindle and applied the grease to the shaft and ball bearing at the top (settle down now Mojo).... reinstalled the platter and then did a spin test.... yikes, the platter just turned so freely... I mean it kept going.

I put on some good vinyl with great bass tonight. I have never heard such bass extension out of the new to me EP500! I have no idea what just happened, but I am guessing that the reduction of friction and perhaps a more 'free floating' bearing is causing less absorption of signal into the base of the turntable and it's passing into the phono stage.

Just a guess, but this is pretty evident on this end.

My EP500 sounds so much smoother Can't wait to add in the 800

OK, night 2 on the SlimSlide, silicone/Teflon grease applied to the bearing in the turntable..... either the new EP500 suddenly broke in (and I don't believe in driver break-in) or this made a huge difference in what is pumping out of these speakers. Forget wasting money on interconnects which cost a thousand bucks, or buying some electronic controller to make sure your 33 1/3 speed is within .0001% of speed rating. Get a tube of $7 grease. I am onto something here

Just re-brand the grease and sell it for $1000. All the audiophools will flock to it.

I am going to be kind, $19.95, free shipping if you call in the next 5 minutes and if you are willing to pay for shipping, we will double your offer, just pay a simple handling charge.....$1000

Sorry...I gave up my turntable and over 400 vinyls to a sonic fox 30 years ago for 6 months of fun.

i saw some vinyl offered on one of the re-selling sites listed as MojoVintage... must have been your stuff

Anything Mojo on the web is indeed mine. The internet never lies.

Glad to hear that is 'real news' not 'fake news'

You lowered the noise floor quite a bit, so it's expected that you will get a much more palpable bass experience.

Well done!

Now ... can anyone get Mojo to behave?

Hey truly Craig...I am well-behaved. I have a glass of Bordeaux in one hand and a beer in the other while one of my three lady friends is stuffing grapes and cheese into my pie hole in my romantically-lit living room. Harry Connick Jr is crooning out of my audiobytes and my cheap but highly modified Sony sub is filling in the lower end quite nicely.

Are you jealous dude that Slim and I are getting the gut punch (disco fever) mode in our 800s? We also have a continuously variable phase knob. Hee hee...

Mojo is on his own, I am the new low noise floor boy

I actually am leaning towards isolation, not noise. I think that the base of the TT was sucking the low frequencies out of the platter. The grease added in a layer of isolation. The problem with that is the grease migrates out and needs to be replenished.

This is where Clear Audio German Engineering might be on to something. They use magnetic suspension so that the platter is floating.

It just came to me.... I have it and I am not going to spill the beans, as this needs to be patented.... I know how to isolate the platter and boost all ranges!

I love continuous phase, I want continuous variable crossover

"Oh Slim...you want it all!"

That was my friend, Lily.

LOL!

Ok .. new forum rules for Mojo. NO posting within 36 hours of reading the Penthouse Forum letters.

In analog, isolation is low noise. Sound is nothing more than vibrations, right? Isolate to get only the vibrations you want to get through, and it is low noise.

Craig, maybe I am not thinking this through well, but what my thought was is that isolating the part to reduce the noise might be different from the idea that certain frequencies may not even be present due to absorption vs. being masked. Sort of like coatings applied to reflective materials to absorb radar so that it doesn't bounce back.

If the platter is 'hooking up' with the base of the turntable due to coupling, these certain frequencies are being drawn down into the base vs. freely passing to the diamond. Not sure if I am making any sense. But I am also not sure if this is different from inherent noise masking.

I am trying to think of this in a similar fashion to the "noise floor" of a radio receiver. If the noise floor is greatly reduced, you can hear weak signals which otherwise do not appear to be there. The signal is there, you just cannot hear it over the noise. But what if that signal was sucked up by something like a change in propagation. It's still out there broadcasting, but its being diverted by atmospheric conditions; and even if the receiver is maximized for an extremely low noise floor, you cannot hear it.

Maybe we are saying the same thing in different terms.

Slim

We are.

All the isolation you are getting is eliminating analog noise from your turntable. Picture if the turntable was in Ian's Anechoic chamber, feeding the preamp into your room. The noise floor outside the turntable would be almost nil.

Another way to think about it is this: the turntable produces a very small analog signal that has to travel from the cartridge to the phono preamp through the wiring. Noise can be introduced through electrical issues (so we ground) or through outside analog signals (vibrations from the platter, warped records, feedback from subwoofers ... all can have an effect, and all are noise, even infrasonic signals).

Expensive turntables go to great lengths to isolate from all these outside noise issues.

So who would have thought that some high end grease would have such a dramatic effect on noise floor? Most people, me included, think of greasing the spindle and bearing as permitting free turning platter and more accurate speed control. I had no idea that my EP500 was going to pop out more.

Or you could use a nice CD and/or SACD player - noise problem solved, ha!

TAM

LOL! It's been decades since I read those. I remember a guy in grade 11 getting in deep doodoo for submitting a story like that to Ms. Fournier - an English teacher all the guys wanted private tutoring from.

TAM, take that though right out of your mind and hold it for a long time..... I am talking analog Vinyl recordings.... a whole different world from CD's or other digital formats. It's a different world and one which benefits from a lowered noise floor and very high end equipment. Once you hear a pristine record played on something like my Ares3 turntable with SME Series IV tonearm you would never go back. I have found the way to eliminate low frequency feed back from subs and now decoupling the platter from the TT base, it's simply amazing and nothing digital comes close in my opinion.

And I meant to ask a while ago. What is a Labdriver?

Have you guys seen the new Mark Levinson table coming out $10gs. Looks pretty cool.

I have not seen it. But if I may make a suggestion; skip paying high bucks for Turntables and look for used ones. You can find a super high end tt for 1/3 the new price if you search. I find a lot of the guys into the analog stuff are never happy; they move onto the next best thing dump what they have for peanuts.

But I am going to at least look at this unit

Slim, I have been around for a many decades so I know exactly what you are talking about. As soon as CDs came out in the early 80s, I ditched fragile vinyl & have never gone back.

The only problem that I've found with some digital recordings is crappy mixing by the sound engineer that hasn't taken advantage of the CD format's superior capabilities. SACDs seem to fare better than many CDs as this format is thought of as an 'audiophile' format. In my collection, they are mixed correctly with no apparent compression hence giving great dynamic range.

As for vinyl, I just couldn't be bothered with incessant record cleaning, anti static treatments, stylus jumping in heavy bass lines, stylus noise, tape noise, inevitable scratches (click, pop, click, pop), skipping with footsteps or dancing, etc, etc.

I'll say one thing, however; exotic TTs look cool, but for me really aren't worth the trouble.

As for an explanation of 'exlabdriver', go here starting with post #371230 & read for a few pages:

#https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/371230/Searchpage/1/Main/21531/Words/labrador/Search/true/Re:_Scoop_on_Axiom_Subs?#Post371230

Some pics here of The Labrador:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ch113+labrador&t=hf&iax=images&ia=images

TAM

There is something warm and cozy with putting on a record and waiting for the music to start as you work through the lead in.... and hearing the clicks and pops, then bang, music. Yeah they are a little work, but I love it. But then again I don't use anti static devices or fancy record cleaning machines (although maybe I should, everyone swears by them), etc. All good fun!

Speaking of fun, I want to try driving one of those things.... Always wanted to try rotor

Flying is heavenly - hovering divine.

Two rotors are better than one, though some may not agree...

TAM

Putting on a platter and playing my rock recording is like climbing into a time machine. Nothing else can take you back like playing your favorite vinyl.

Uhmmm...not even a 1979 GMC Vandura 2500 with a twin bed, furnace and shag?

I wonder if anyone's ever listened to a turntable through a pair of speakers with the intention of re designing the turntable until there was no difference between the audio file recorded and the audio file heard. 1-1 copy.

It was a 1500 and no need for furnace , made my own heat but the vinyl did skip on occasion

I've got a Fluance RT81 turntable my self enjoy the feel of Vinyl though don't go to any extremes for placement etc.

Personally think more lifelike things never go as planned crackle pop wise, though a good cleaning from time to time is good for avoiding as well.

Here is an interesting comparison:

I have a vintage Marantz 6300 with a vintage audio Technica AT15ss super shibata cartridge MM. Both were considered the top of the line back in the 1970's or at least close to it. In recent time I had been enjoying looking over the modern belt drive super high end turntables, total eye candy for a mechanical type of mindset, but I never thought it would really be much better than what my vintage gear could produce.

Fast forward to this past May. I found a deal on a 10 year old VPI Ares3 TT with the super-platter option. I was also able to find a mint SME Series IV tone arm. Total original cost of this set up was around $9K down here in the states, I picked it all up for around $3K. After two days of machining work in my shop to fit the SME to the tone arm board and doing the set up, I finally was able to do transfer of the AT15ss from the Marantz to the VPI. But not before I modified the SVS Iso-feet (medium durometer rubber isolation feet made for sub woofers) and replaced the stock pointed conical feet. The TT weighs 75 pound in total with the super-platter, so the weight was well matched to the isolation feet as designed for a sub.

This was going to be a really good test of the BS level of audio and spending more money than you have a right mind to so that you can hear more. I was using the same vintage AT cartridge with a NOS stylus from two years ago, and simply swapping it over to a new TT/tone arm and retaining the Clear Audio Smart V2 phono preamp as used before.

RESULT: Holy Moly, I can hear instruments I didn't even know existed in some tracks. The bass is unbelievable, and all other frequency ranges just pop. I can hear instruments playing in what sounds like they are inside my fireplace.

The other most amazing result, I have zero bass feedback resonating up through the TT causing the awful howl which causes me to run for the volume control to turn it down before it blows a driver. There is virtually no feedback with whatever SPL level I want to run. I suspect the isolation feet have a lot to do with this as I can feel the shelf the turntable sits on vibrating with the low frequency hits, but if I move my hand to the surface of the Ares3, I cannot feel anything.

Conclusion: this thing was worth every penny spent! I am not sure that I would spend a lot more at this stage for anything even more high end as I do have to question the level of diminishing return on investment. But if someone is willing to do some shopping for a while to find a really good deal on a used high end turntable, I'd do it. The next big change will be when I wear out the Audio Technica AT15ss MM and go to a modern MC cartridge (I was told by a good HiFi dealer not to rush to change, the difference would be very minor). I'll take his advice and enjoy what life I have in the NOS stylus.

I have owned many TT's from basic models (Revolver Rebel) to mid line (Oracle Alexandria) to high end (Linn LP), and while I love the sound when the system is of quality from end to end (source to speaker), I tend to agree with exlab...too much work for me any more

I can understand that. It's like driving a high performance sports car with a 6 speed/clutch or the automatic. The automatic allowing most of the feel, not all, but most; however you can drive with a coffee in hand and take in the scenery. For those who want all the car and road can offer, we skip the coffee and do the drive. It's just what you like or want.

Linn started doing this with turntables back in the 70's. One system that excelled was the Linn Turntable, Marantz 3600 preamp, Marantz 510 or 250 series amp, and a pair of Koss 1020's. The Koss actually played to 20 Hz through a 10 inch built in subwoofer.

I still have the Marantz combo plus the Koss speakers, and even with a good CD player, it's amazing, the sound quality.

I tend to somewhat disagree with the analogy. I'd say it's more like driving a vintage sports car. Lets say for argument sake a Porche 911 from the late 60ies or early seventies. Great fun to drive. Had it's neuances and problems. Took forever to tinker to get it working but when it does it sure does bring a smile to your face.

But technology has long since moved on and newer Porche 911 have since been released and far more refined. You can effectively go faster, with a much smoother ride and by far more reliable than the vintage model. But there are some who think that the classic holds more value and is more fun to drive because of the quirks and issues. They will swear blind that it's a better car and will also insist that they can beat a modern Porche any day. But for some reason, if anyone takes them up on it, they will either not show up or come up with some reason that the side by side comparison is not fair or a reason to still hold onto their beliefs. Like, it looks better, or the fact you have to wind down the window and open the door from the outside as the inside handle is busted makes it far better.

Luckily for both camps there's enough enjoyment either way.

Although with the recent resurgence of Vinyl the digital albums from a fair chunk of artists isn't there. Especially independent stuff.

I'm recently testing TIDAL. To which I can find quite a few albums for most artists though some are missing. Currently have a small LP selection of 25 to which 4 are on TIDAL. My C.D. collection of 500 plus, I can only find mainstream content those artists produced. So that leaves my CDs as the only way I can still hear a fair chunk of them.

Man, I don't know if I agree or disagree with you... never drove a new Porsche (would like to at some point).... did some older ones. And of course my 68 Vette with a 327 , Bow Tie heads and several others afterwards with modern stuff. I liked my old 327 which just made song when it wound up; nothing else sounded like it.

I have flown WW2 ground attack single engine planes with massive radial engines making a lot of sweet noise above the noise floor. If you offer me up a modern plane with all of the technology, I'll take a plane from the 1940's. with a piston driven engine Maybe not as sophisticated, but Gin Gut punch which makes a difference; and quick in the turns.

The most wicked craft I've flown is my stunt kite.

hmmm, sounds like a kite suit over the Alps I'd do that

Yeah...that's exactly what I meant. LOL!

Slim: Maybe we are getting a bit off topic here; however, I'll provide one more comment on old vs new technology as I see it.

Most new technology makes things easier & more reliable than the old stuff - especially in aviation.

I started way back as a Flight Instructor in the RCAF in the late sixties on these two aircraft:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ct+114+tutor&t=hf&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=canadian+ct+33&t=hg&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

Mostly fun to fly, especially the Tutor - wonderfully light & maneuverable - great for aerobatics. 'Steam driven' instruments & technology of the time - no auto pilot assist.

Then I had a great tour on the CF 101B Voodoo Interceptor:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=CF+101b+voodoo&t=hg&iax=images&ia=images

A challenging Century Series aircraft designed in the late 1940s. Inadequate tube computers with some auto pilot assist. Nice & powerful (dual afterburners in winter temps was a joy) but very unforgiving that made flying it and adventure - high landing speed (175 - 225 Kts). Check out the phenomena of 'pitch up' on the net.

I had one trip in a CF18 in the back seat:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cf+18&t=hf&iax=images&ia=images

Really powerful, fully computerized so easy to fly (computers do most of the work) - enough so that I was able to land it from the back seat without incident, ha!

Since I was already challenged enough, especially flying SAR missions in the Labrador all by hand mostly in adverse conditions (weather, night, mountains, out to sea, etc), I would choose new technology found in the latest helos to enhance getting the job done any day.

I am thankful though that I had an opportunity to fly some pretty cool & powerful machines in my day...

TAM

TAM,

Nice planes, I would love to try them out, but I don't think that will be happening!

I did some time in a North American AT-6, which was the advanced fighter trainer for WW2 and was also used for FAC and some ground attack work. It was a blast to fly with the big noisy radial engine and open canopy, nice cool air when skimming clouds.

Did you ever see a Stewart 51? A guy named Stewart was selling 75% scale, reproduction P-51 Mustangs which were all aluminum air-frames built in the Delfin factory in the Czech Republic. He dropped a Chevy 502 cu inch massaged V8 motor into it and it was gorgeous with its big 4 blade prop. I went down there to do a test flight, but the motor was having issues when I got there! Damn. But I watched it wind up and do some passes with his chief pilot flying by.

Anyway, I think of these old planes as equivalent to my vinyl records, a lot more work, but it's what keeps it all fun Yeah it's not as easy as putting on something from the app on the phone while having cocktails at the pool, but I like jumping up or 'grazing' back into the room to flip the record.

It's the same feeling as looking at the rosewood finish.

Slim

Are you two vampires? You sound ancient.

Ancient is a good way of putting it. That's what makes me so wise & pragmatic, ha!

My flying days are long past. I retired so long ago that I largely left aviation behind so I have only a passing interest in the latest flying machines out there; however, here I sit in my cave with my walls covered with my 'hero' pics & that's enough for me.

Good memories - mostly...

TAM

Although I am not over the hill by any stretch, I too have lost interest in flying. I did so much of it in an Air Force aux unit, I just lost the excitement. Sadly I was feeling that way last week about skiing! Yikes, I never thought that could happen; but I'll resist that fiercely. I guess I just need colder temps and harder packed snow and that is in store this week

TAM, when I first saw your handle here, I was thinking this guy must have really loved his old Lab who he used to drive around; I was sad to think that your dog passed away.....

Mojo, loving old planes and flying them doesn't make one ancient! My dad was a WW2 pilot, he'd be turning 100 soon if he were still around. I am not that old!

Damn!I've been looking for a vampire to grant me eternal life. I'd like to be around in 500 years when Axiom has LFRs with 100 drivers.

Ask TAM, maybe he can offer to put the bite on you

TAM, bite me!

On a plane note the Blue Angels are supposed to be coming to the Abottsford air show this year.
I haven't made it to see in years but could be fun if your on the mainland that time of year.
Luckily the S.A.R. units aren't full blast this year as our West Coast Mountain tops freeze. A fantastic support unit for the Idiots that can't follow the rules{Out of bounds or alone}

Mojo:

Wait till I find my teeth, ha!

Brendo:

We host our Snowbirds in Comox every spring for 3 weeks while they do their workups. Non stop airshows during that time over my house...

TAM

Great ... we get him away from Penthouse, only to have him go "Twilight" on us.

I'd like to take my boys this year.
Haven't been to an air show in Abottsford yet.
Heard they're pretty good there.

My teenage porn was Stereophile magazine.

This explains SO much.

The Abottsford has been going for a long time, never heard any complaints. Haven't been in a long time my self. Though had some friends kids stay over during the summer who went and they had a lot of fun.

Any thoughts out there on driver break-in? Does it exist for real or is it simply our brains getting used to the way a speaker sounds and 'we' make the adjustments?

I could swear my three week old EP500 is putting out even more and better/smoother bass. Is this me or is it the driver 'breaking in"?

Personally, I believe that speaker break in is real. That said I don't think it is what many manufacturers state it is. In many cases they simply exaggerate the period of time required as to allow for the buyer to get accustomed to the sound. Some will use it to quell returns to a point beyond their trial period. I believe the actual break-in period is relatively short and based on driver size and material makeup. In most cases minutes and not the many hours often said to be needed. Another of the many audiophile arguments that will likely never be decided. Much like that of the need for speaker cables costing thousands of dollars. A can of worms for sure.

Speaker break-in is real. It's disputable whether or not the break-in is audible to humans.

Apparently I was wrong....it has been decided.:) In personal experience, I did notice a change in my LFRs but I am not willing to go so far as to state that it was anything measurable or if it was only perceived, but to my ears/brain it was there.

Break-in is measurable.

I believe the actual break-in period is relatively short and based on driver size and material makeup.

Interesting story. I made a few identical speakers. They were put in place one at a time as I soldered up the speaker wires to the external crossovers. I was a little impatient if excited and listened to a channel at a time as soon as possible. As each one was finished I brought them online. When they were each fired up they sounded pretty harsh next to their neighbor. There was time between each one to listen as I worked along. Each time a new one fired up it was the same. Harsh for a few minutes. A little nerve wracking.

Ok. Maybe not THAT interesting. lol.

I remember that!

I'd expect speakers to break in faster than subs because the suspension and surround for a sub is stiffer. Ian is sending me a second 800v4 so I'll have a chance to "test" if I can hear a difference. Likely not though since apparently the second sub spent time in the chamber being tested for gut punch mode.

Even without time in the chamber I suspect the in home break-in for our Axioms is particularly short due to their factory QC testing, but it was certainly audible to me. I didn't take note of how long before I was in audio heaven but probably a matter of a few hours.

When I got mine, I tweaked so many things I couldn't possibly make heads or tails if it was break-in or changes to parameters and environment. I am positive however that temperature changes in my space affect the sound.

I am in the same boat. I am always making adjustments, and it is impossible to determine what individual change has made the most significant difference when multiple changes are made simultaneously. I should be more regimented in my methods but the end goal is always better sound and not determining which change has the most effect. I enjoy playing with the sound ALMOST as much as listening to the music.

I never considered temperature and may have equated differences heard to other factors. I will give special attention in this regard from now on.

Temperature seems to have an effect, I would agreed.
With respect to break in time, my first set of M80's really opened up a short time after I turned up the volume. I had babied them for a week or two then got a little braver as time went on.

Temperature, barometric (atmospheric) pressure and input power have a great effect on loudspeaker response. The magnitude and phase response of passive filters in traditional loudspeakers change with temperature and input power and also time (component values drift). The driver characteristics change as well.

Digital filters don't suffer from these problems. Phase response is linear and pass-band ripple is pretty much nil under all conditions. Amplitude and frequency dynamic range are an issue though and have to be carefully designed for in a digital filter. Couple a digital filter with feedback incorporating each driver's condition and you'd have a very expensive but maybe better sounding speaker.

Maybe though a better use of time and money is to use digital filters to compensate for deviations in the family of curves. That's what Axiom is doing for Bryston and will soon do for the LFR1100s as a purchasable option.

Having said all that, I don't know why I am hearing poorer sound in my environment as the temperature climbs. There may be effects I am not aware of like eddy currents and the like in my room.

I used to tweak a ton in my main room. Since I re-configured it, I no longer have a propensity to tweak. I also have a secondary listening area that Serenity_Now helped me with. I found I didn't have to tweak that environment at all.

Incessant tweaking could indicate a deep satisfaction with your environment.

My ultimate tweak. I went so far as to remove walls to enlarge my space predominately for the purpose of improved sound. My main floor laundry room is no more. Each trip to the basement to wash cloths is a reminder of how much I appreciate quality sound. Not sure what that says about me.

It says you recognize there is no substitute for a larger space. My 80s are 9' apart, 6' away from side walls and I sit 14' back. It's bliss.

It says your a wise man indeed. Cant be having that noisy washer and dryer interfering with your pleasure.

Anyone who needs a dump run to improve audio is A-OK in my book! . Mattman built a room around his LFRs as well. But he is modest about showing it off.

Would love to see pics.

Mojo...My dimensions are now very similar and it has made a massive difference. Size does matter. Getting rid of the laundry room also left me with what is essentially a walk in closet behind where my gear was. Soooooooooo the bottom portion of that wall had to go as well. I now have my gear inset with lots of room behind to make any changes.There is also the added benefit of not having a rack between the speakers, potentially interfering with the sound. A work in progress but so far so good.

ALARMING NEWS; BREAKING NEWS: And it ain't fake news

I put on my Model T's tonight after working outside all day in near zero temps on firewood for the winter (F degrees for the record).

Good vinyl as always from the 80's with a lot of high end mixed bass which I have heard a thousand times before..... I was pouring myself a refill of 101 Bourbon and when exiting the kitchen to the back hall entrance (which opens up into the main living space with the gear), I was hit. Bass in the floor; something I have not experienced in the past from my Brystons and EP500. There was bass in the floor, it was felt.

Yes, there is driver break-in. That 12 inch driver opened up

Is the bottom of the 500 enclosure still in tact? LOL!

I'm sure Deb will be very surprised.

[quote=norap]Mojo...My dimensions are now very similar and it has made a massive difference. Size does matter. [quote]

How far are you from the wall behind you? That makes a big difference as well.

Bottom of the sub is there as is the substructure of my floor... I am proud

Not sure what will be left standing after the Gin Gut Punch in the 800

I am quite close to the wall behind. I am about 1 foot from a very large window with heavy fabric drapes. Should theoretically limit reflection.

Any way to move ahead?

I suggest knocking down the wall and extending the room. That's thinking outside the box.

Unfortunately I am at my limits of wall removal....any more and the house falls down, cant have debris on the gear.

Well then. Serenity_now can design you a treatment for your back wall that renders it less visible to low frequencies.

Always open to suggestions

He knows all the science for room acoustics and can develop completely customized treatments after he takes sound measurements of your space.

I've entered a business partnership (not with Axiom) that prevents me from supplying designs in open forums now. I am here as a hobbyist just like everyone else. If you are serious about room help anyone can reach me via a pm. I hope saying this hasn't broken forum rules. Cheers for the plug Mojo!

Good for you, Trevor. You're a very smart guy.

A while back in Post #427934 I noted:

'We host our Snowbirds in Comox every spring for 3 weeks while they do their workups. Non stop airshows during that time over my house...'

Well today I came across a nice HD video of one of their training sessions in the airspace over my home. Enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/tTnTEvKC-sE

TAM

Way to de-rail this thread, TAM...LOL!

Would not be a normal thread on this forum if someone didnt derail some thread or other. Myself, i am a thread killer, i post and it dies.

I truly have no idea what this thread is about anymore. We're engaging in fourplay now and the nad ticklin is mighty fine!

Actually it was derailed long before today - back on Xmas Eve & 7 pages ago & not by me. I was just updating the derailment.

I hope that you enjoyed the video...

TAM

I slow-danced to the music with my friend while they were flying around us.

Totally cool footage Tam

Nice flying.... my kind of flying almost as good as Mountain fury

I've always wanted to fly in a two seat side by side configured cockpit/jet.

Yep, it's a cool looking plane... not sure what it is ? But I'd fly it for sure

Tudor

Tudor it is.... its cool looking and it looks like it handles nicely

CT-114 Tutor - as in teacher. Built by Canadair in the 1960s.

Most fun aircraft that I've ever flown - fully pressurized, +7 G capable & +400 Kts speed.

Side by side seating is great because the instructor (me) could easily admonish the student physically when needed, like a smack across the helmet, ha! Plus it is easier to land than with a back seat configuration...

TAM

Tam , have you flown the snowbirds? Also the smoke that trails from the plane how is that done .

I was never a Snowbird as such, just a line Instructor Pilot that did a real job, ha!

The 2 tanks - an add on modification just for the demonstration team birds - under the belly, hold engine oil that is simply pumped & sprayed into the hot exhaust. The pilot of course turns the smoke on/off as required. Different colours can be mixed into the oil but it is a PITA so normally they go with just white.

My father was an air force tech back in the 1970s who was on the team that designed & installed the smoke systems. He received a nice promotion due to his work on this project.

As shown on the video, they modified one of the tanks & mounted HD Cameras that enabled those great videos...

TAM

I have watched the snowbirds perform for over 50yrs. We went to the Abbottsford airshow every year for many years, talk about a sore neck and sunburn They still put on a great show. The would often fly over Surrey while performing at the airshow but its not the same as being there. They have been to Whitehorse as well ,always fun to see them.

Ever since the Bloom County cartoon where Opus talks about penguins in the Falkland Islands falling over backwards while watching the planes fly overhead I have never felt quite the same at air shows.